Banning The Burka – Big Brother Micromanaging, Or A Common Sense Precaution?
18 July 2010 by KA
I’ve made it abundantly clear in the past that of the Big Three of Abraham, Islam is perhaps the most backwards and barbaric of them. True, there was once upon a time when the Muslims had a ‘Golden Age’ of sorts, where the Middle East was an oasis of culture in the Middle Ages, but repetitive repercussions echoed in the headlines and history over the past few centuries have shown that the religion in question is as backwards as its predecessors. Perhaps more so now than ever before. Such is the result of treating religious beliefs with kid gloves.
In Europe, there are varying degrees dealing with Mohammed’s madness: France is pushing ahead with plans to introduce a law banning women from wearing full-face Islamic veils in all public places. President Nicolas Sarkozy’s cabinet has approved a bill making it illegal to wear in public clothes designed to hide the face, and the measure is now awaiting a vote in parliament. Parliament has already passed a non-binding resolution condemning the full Islamic face veil as "an affront to the nation’s values of dignity and equality". Mr Sarkozy has said veils oppress women and are "not welcome" in France. A French parliamentary committee earlier recommended a partial ban inside public buildings – such as hospitals and schools – and on public transport. The State Council – France’s highest administrative body – warned that such a law might be unconstitutional and violate European human rights laws. However, a ban in public places such as schools, hospitals and law courts could be justified for security reasons, to combat fraud and to meet the needs of some public services, it added. A ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools was introduced in 2004, and received overwhelming political and public support in a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law. Opinion polls suggest a majority of French people support a full ban. Now, if we were talking about a law that forbids wearing specific articles such as say a bomber jacket (because it might make the wearer seem dangerous – don’t laugh, I used to have one, and was told as much), or a hat from Beach Blanket Babylon (for something outside of a copyright/trademark infringement), or carrying a parasol of a particular color, well, that would smack of Orwellian overtones, and I’d be on my cyber-stump trumpeting away about the invidious efforts of governments trying to conformitize us (yes, there’s no such word, spare me please, I’m playing). However, when we’re speaking of a religion that has a proven track record of persuading people to strap bombs onto themselves (and other family members!), that ‘martyrs’ people for some reified value that only has value in the eyes of the converted, that slaughters their womenfolk for no better reason than some archaic belief system that’s long since been proven valueless, then out it goes I say. I’m all for diversity in culture, I’m a raving xenophile (within reason of course), I enjoy multicultural diversity as much as the next liberal, but a custom that can shield a potential suicide bomber has got to go. Belgium has smartened up quite a bit: The lower house of Belgium’s parliament has passed a bill to ban clothing that hides a person’s identity in public places such as parks, buildings and on the street. The bill still needs approval in the Senate. Although the legislation does not specifically refer to full-face Islamic veils, it would outlaw the use of garments such as the niqab and the burka. The bill enjoys cross-party support and is expected to be passed, which would make Belgium the first country in Europe to ban the wearing of such Islamic garments. Currently, the burka is banned in several districts under old local laws originally designed to stop people masking their faces completely at carnival time. In Antwerp, for example, police can now reprimand, or even imprison, offenders. They say the regulation is all about public safety. Spain is dancing around a bit with the concept, and are including other forms of headwear: Though there are no plans for a national ban in Spain, the city of Barcelona has announced a ban on full Islamic face-veils in some public spaces such as municipal offices, public markets and libraries. At least two smaller towns in Catalonia, the north-eastern region that includes Barcelona, have also imposed bans. Barcelona’s city council said the ban there targeted any head-wear that impeded identification, including motorbike helmets and balaclavas, rather than religious belief. It resisted calls from the conservative Popular Party (PP) to extend the ban to all public spaces, including the street. Britain is of course somewhat divided on the issue: There is no ban on Islamic dress in the UK, but schools are allowed to forge their own dress code after a 2007 directive which followed several high-profile court cases. Schools Secretary Ed Balls said in January 2010 it was "not British" to tell people what to wear in the street after the UK Independence Party called for all face-covering Muslim veils to be banned. Ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who leads UKIP’s 13 MEPs in Brussels, said the veils were a symbol of an "increasingly divided Britain", that they "oppressed" women, and were a potential security threat. UKIP is the first British party to call for a total ban, after the anti-immigration British National Party had already called called for the veil to be banned in Britain’s schools. Surprisingly enough, the Netherlands is less than decisive: In 2006, the Dutch government considered but abandoned plans to impose a ban on all forms of coverings that obscured the face – from burkas to crash helmets with visors – in public places, saying they disturbed public order and safety. Lawyers said the move would likely be unconstitutional and critics said it would violate civil rights. The government suggested it would instead seek a ban on face-covering veils in schools and state departments, but no legislation has yet been passed. Around 5% of the Netherlands’ 16 million residents are Muslims, but only around 300 are thought to wear the burka. Of course, the battle rages on in Turkey: For more than 85 years Turks have lived in a secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who rejected headscarves as backward-looking in his campaign to secularise Turkish society. Scarves are banned in civic spaces and official buildings, but the issue is deeply divisive for the country’s predominantly Muslim population, as two-thirds of all Turkish women – including the wives and daughters of the prime minister and president – cover their heads. In 2008, Turkey’s constitution was amended to ease a strict ban at universities, allowing headscarves that were tied loosely under the chin. Headscarves covering the neck and all-enveloping veils were still banned. The governing party, with its roots in Islam, said the ban meant many girls were being denied an education. But the secular establishment said easing it would be a first step to allowing Islam into public life. The picture in this post is of the notorious ‘Burkini’- because of course the sumptuous curves of a female might drive a man wild, cause him to commit all sorts of heinous acts, which under more severe Sharia law, would make the woman culpable, not the man. I don’t even need to Google that, or provide a link. It’s common knowledge for anyone with even the cursory knowledge of this nonsense. That anyone could treat another human being in such a manner is appalling. That a woman is treated as such brings my good Irish upbringing into a frothy boil. Without women, there’d be no species, no humanity. The mind boggles. Women have rights. You crazy assholes don’t like it? Move back into caves. I say nix the niqab. There’s my nickel’s worth. Till the next post then.
18 July 2010, on 4:34 am
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18 July 2010, on 4:43 am
Yeah, KA, what is there to say about all that; but utterances of total agreement to your conclusion.
Well…possibly something RE this excerpt, from your Post?…
“Schools Secretary Ed Balls said in January 2010 it was “not British” to tell people what to wear in the street after the UK Independence Party called for all face-covering Muslim veils to be banned.”
(Y’all know where I’m goin’ with this…right?…What!…wait for it?):
[Some murmuring voices from the crowd?]:
“Of course, with his name, who’s to argue with him?”
“He coitenly has the right name for someone holding on to that position!”
“What position?…I thought, all the time he spoke, he was just holding onto his crotch!”
“By the way…what’s his middle name…anybody know?”
etcetera, etcetera…
Sorry, KA…I’ve been “up” way too long.
What’s that?…more than four hours?
18 July 2010, on 9:44 am
When I went back to school to earn my Masters, there were many Muslims at the university I attended. Most of the Muslim women had some kind of scarf on her head, however there were a couple of them who covered their heads, bodies and faces so that only their eyes showed. It was startling to see at first. I was standing on a patio outside of the cafeteria talking to a friend when a person in this attire came walking from around the side of the building. Our first impression and comments weren’t “stupid Muslim” and no racial thoughts came to mind because in that kind of attire no one knows what race you are! Immediately we thought NINJA…a person who wants to remain unrecognizable, and their identity hidden the same way robbers and terrorists hide their faces so they cannot be recognized. It’s unnerving.
The university now has implemented a ban on face coverings. They can still wear their hijab but people have to see the face of who is wearing it.
18 July 2010, on 7:46 pm
We are too lenient in this country. When Muslim immigrants arrive here, they should be given a written statement or there should be a big sign stating: We are a democracy, not a theocracy, your theocratic ideas would be better left behind in your country where it can continue to do the damage that has been done to your society and culture for over 2000 years. Yes, we have many Christians who seem to believe that we would be better off with a Christian theocracy, but be aware, just because Christianity originated from the same monotheistic beginning, our constitution demands and advocates the complete separation of church and state. If you disagree, whether Muslim, Christian, or other religious persuasion, simply leave our country.
18 July 2010, on 8:17 pm
Tony – saw a documentary a while back, where (Sweden? Norway?) would have immigrants from other countries watch how open & secular the country they’re immigrating to is (including topless beaches, etc). Some of them elected to go back to their country of origin.
Star – Muslim ninjas. Whadda concept.
18 July 2010, on 9:52 pm
When I was at Dorney Park in PA last weekend, I saw a woman in full niqab with just a slit for the eyes. I was like “Gimme a friggin’ break!” How is she even supposed to enjoy the water rides?
There were other muslim women there wearing headscarves and a couple of them actually did enter into the pool where it makes waves every few minutes.
19 July 2010, on 5:52 am
I don’t know where I stand on a ban, I was recently dead against it, but may now support it, but I know where I stand on your comment Tony D, it’s fucking stupid, that’s what it is:
“We are too lenient in this country. When Muslim immigrants arrive here, they should be given a written statement or there should be a big sign stating: We are a democracy, not a theocracy, your theocratic ideas would be better left behind in your country where it can continue to do the damage that has been done to your society and culture for over 2000 years.”
Yes, we are a democracy, not a theocracy. And that’s why we’ve got nice democratic rules that allow us to wear what we want, not invasive theocratic rules about appropriate clothing.
Do all Forruners! come from theocracies in your eyes, or just the Muslim forriners? And just for the record, how many thousand years do you think Islam has existed for?
You’re a dribbling indictment of whatever sub-par education system spat you out, and you’re an embarrasment to liberal democracies.
19 July 2010, on 7:57 am
Yes, we are a democracy, not a theocracy. And that’s why we’ve got nice democratic rules that allow us to wear what we want, not invasive theocratic rules about appropriate clothing.
Nona, to keep a society safe, you have to draw the line somewhere. In public schools and other public places restrictions are placed on gang attire and symbols, and the mainstream people are not supposed to be covering their faces in public so that they are unrecognizable. It’s just plain common sense not to allow it, for the safety of all the people. If people want to live in the dark ages, then why do they want to come live here where many people walk around half dressed?
Do all Forruners! come from theocracies in your eyes, or just the Muslim forriners?
Um, most theocratic countries on this planet are Muslim theocracies. And I know you are speaking to Tony, but I don’t know how you came up with this question when we are obviously discussing female Muslim attire.
And just for the record, how many thousand years do you think Islam has existed for?
Again, I know you are talking to Tony, but I just had to jump in here since he may not be back right away. As for me, I would give it the same answer as I would give Xianity and any other dangerous superstitious beliefs…too long! But seriously, do you even know the answer to that Nona? Islam dates to the early 600s. So, Tony is pretty much correct. What educational system were you educated in, Nona?
19 July 2010, on 8:31 pm
Thanks Stardust, you said it better, kinder and with more dignity than I would have.
20 July 2010, on 12:03 am
Interestingly, Syria of all places is going to ban full face veils at its universities.
20 July 2010, on 6:29 am
From the moderator: If you wish to come and discuss in a civil and rational manner, and present your information and opposing arguments, you are welcome, however, when you come just to throw out insults, antagonize and to just take a shit on our floor,you can take it someplace else.
If you are covering your face, that still doesn’t change the fact that it is a security problem in public places.
I will admit our mistake on the mathematical calculations of the age of Islam. I did state above that it was officially formed in the 600s and I provided a link (and which makes no fucking difference to the argument concerning women wrapping themselves up in cloth head-to-toe). I am sure you believe you are like Mary Fucking Poppins and so perfect in every way, but your written communication skills are in need of some work.
20 July 2010, on 7:12 am
The burqa is even more ridiculous than the habits previously worn by catholic nuns. Hopefully the burqa becomes extinct.
21 July 2010, on 1:17 pm
I have been hasseled by the police in sub zero weather for walking around wearing a ski mask to avoid frostbite. While I, a rationalist, am understanding of such things, the pedophile worshippers can’t understand why they arent going to be allowed to send their female possesions out in pulic in disguise. Go figure…
I have a message for the christians who are responsible for the legal precedent which has been set in this country regarding church and state – Thanks assholes! You didnt see this coming did you? You are paving the way for sharia law, cant you see that now?
Not to sound combative, but a note to KA —
While you may label yourself as a xenophile, a lot of your audience is probably wondering what the percieved irish cultural compoments of your upbringing had to do with its superior sensitivities regarding issues of sexism. It sounds like when the pope says he is a good german. I hope that you dont think your upbringing was good because it was an “irish upbringing”. I’m sorry to say that all this runs the risk of allowing your arguments against islam to be shuffled to the side with other argumens that include some supremicist idea.
While there are undoubtably varying degrees of fair treatment of women that abound in different cultures, I would hardly put irish culture as a whole anywhere near the top of my list. I say these words as someone who is partly a product of irish culture, someone who is surrounded by the irish catholic culture’s systematic disempowering of women from a young age, someone who knows of the atrocities that irish settlers in this country commited against the native people’s of north america. If your guardians instilled in you a respect for equality in the sexes, I am glad for that. Why not just give credit to the actual individuals responsible for your good values? Giving credit to the irish culture as a whole isnt giving credit where credit is due. Saying, “I had good parents,grandparents, family, good people surrounding me in my youth” is distinct from saying, “I had good people of a particular ethnicity surrounding me”. Why mention it? Why risk your credability?
21 July 2010, on 1:30 pm
These muslim garments are disguises because they hide the identity on purpose. The go further to hide the sexual nature of a woman, which I think is far more ojectifying than the scanty clothes that repressed folk have such problems with. Scanty clothes are closer to our natural naked state.
KA – I like the post and a lot of your other posts, and want you to understand that we are primarily in agreement and I was only trying to give constructive critisism.
21 July 2010, on 8:30 pm
Sure. I was raised ‘good Irish’ – that’s to say, treat women w/respect & as equals. There’s ‘bad Irish’ too – overdrinking & beating the spouse/significant other.
I was raised to respect (& fear a little) women.
I’ll be beggin’ yer pardon, sar…I’ll be needin’ a link fer these atrocities ye speak of.
& catholic is catholic, regardless of culture.
I’d be writing posts the size of War & Peace if I were to factor in every single variable that ever had a profound effect on my outlook, no? It’s a given that my folks had a major hand in my upbringing, ‘n me pa weren’t Irish, but Pennsylvania Dutch (& Protestant & divorced, & my ma marrying him got her excommunicated).
Ethnicity shapes us all, like it or no. & I happen to be overfond of my Irish heritage, albeit I’m not much of a drinker.
As for credibility, I say what I think, mean what I say, & stand by it.