Requests for prayers . . .
2 February 2010 by Stardust
Since I have been a member of a certain semi-private social network website, I can’t tell you how many times I have read “please pray for . . . ” or “we will pray for you”, “we will keep you in our prayers”, etc. Just today someone posted that her little baby grandson is going to be having heart surgery on Friday and requested prayers. A good friend is awaiting a kidney transplant so that she will not die. She requests prayers. The list of comments that follow is quite long with extreme deity invoking that somehow makes my “you’re in my thoughts” seem insufficient. It would be terribly inappropriate for me to say what I want to say….if your god is willing to help you now, then why did he not prevent you from getting these diseases and problems in the first place?
I truly and genuinely care about my god-believing family and friends, and I want to offer support but I always feel that language fails me at such moments, and that I end up not really knowing what to say that sounds as concerned or caring as the magical incantations. There’s often a very fine line between appropriate and offensive which we must be careful of in people’s “time of need”. What we really want to say would be cruel when people are worried, sick and needing their god crutch.
So, what is an appropriate thing for the atheist to say? I try to direct my comments to the doctors and staff, that I am sure they will do all they can for the person who is ill. If a person is going through some sort of life crisis, financial or otherwise, all I can say is “I hope things work out” and that would be the honest truth. There is no way I could ever bring myself to be a hypocrite and write that they are in my prayers or whatever like everyone else.
What should an atheist offer instead of prayers?
2 February 2010, on 2:34 pm
I have to say that if you are talking words, the only true thing that you can do would be to indicate that you are thinking of them and hope that everything works out for the best. However, I find that more solid things are better than words in such instances. If they are local, offering to sit with them or take them out to get their minds off the problem, dropping off a meal or telephoning them to let them know that you are available should the need arise. For long distance, telephoning again is good, sending flowers or food to minimize work they would otherwise need to do after a hospital stay for themselves or a loved one. On a flip side, I think that the “pray for me” or “I’ll pray for you” is overstated and in many cases a total canard. There was this one woman I knew (not as a friend) who whenever there was some problem people were facing and there would be offers of help, she would always be the first to run forth and announce “You’ll be in my prayers” or “I’ll pray for you”, and this was always the extent of her contributions. I overheard her talking with someone else at one point at the back of the church about someone undergoing surgery and she was asked by the other woman what she planned on contributing. This holier-than-though gem said that she doesn’t get mixed up with running all over the place for people, so she always tells them that she’ll pray for them and leaves it at that, so they feel she is doing something and won’t bother her for anything more. And, she added, sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t, they don’t know what you do or don’t do when it comes to prayer. I found this so disingenuous, but I have also noted that many people have this same outlook. When my own mother underwent cancer surgery a few years ago, there were four women at her office who made it a point to state that “You will be in my prayers.” I told my mother that I would bet for the entire duration of her recuperation that she would not get one e-mail, phone call, offer of physical help or cards from any of those four women, and guess what? She didn’t. I have reached the point where if something bad is happening in my life and someone says “I’ll pray for you”, I jump right in and say “That is OK. It would mean so much more to me if you could help with one of the following…” The looks are priceless and you get to see how the pretense of concern drops in record time. I mean seriously you are either concerned enough to help or not, but don’t use someone else’s issues to make yourself seem pious.
2 February 2010, on 2:38 pm
I always use: “You know I don’t pray in a traditional manner, but do know that I care for you and look forward to a successful and positive outcome.”
Lame? Maybe. But I usually get thanked.
2 February 2010, on 3:40 pm
You should offer confidence in the doctors, let them know you care about them (love them, if you want to describe the relationship that way) and wish them well. Save the snide remarks for after they’re better and thanking God (rather than the medical team whose expertise actually did all the work) for their recovery.
2 February 2010, on 3:53 pm
^ Good comments.
Pardon me, if I blab on a bit…
I think the old saying…”If you can’t say anything good (what THEY want to hear?), don’t say anything.” might apply.
Stardust already mentioned a safe thing; which is similar to: “You’re certainly in my thoughts; and I trust the medical team involved will do its utmost to insure the best results.
Personally I have very few regularly communicating family contacts; and they all pretty much know I’m an atheist. “That said”, one of my, still in contact, 1953 Catholic grammar school classmates told me, very recently, she had a double mastectomy operation; and I totally avoided anything close to “wishful thinking” in my response. However, subsequently, after telling her about my companion’s longtime detached retina; which she’s now being treated for, to avoid having the eye removed, my classmate mentioned she’d be praying for her. I haven’t responded to that yet; either by email or on Skype. I’ll probably simply skip any reference to her prayer notion, and just ask how SHE’s doing.
[By the way, I gather; a double mastectomy, from the classmates comments, is a VERY painful recovery process.]
All that said…reading this Post…my joking addiction immediately fired up with things like:
“I’ll be sure to tell Froggie the Gremlin to plunk his magic twanger; and see if THAT helps!”
[I long suspected that "twanger" was an inside, snuck in, sexual reference joke...? NO?]
“Who Dat?”…for anyone unfamiliar with Froggie…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYZazW9Ja1k
OR…
cue Disney’s Jiminy Cricket singing:
“When you wish upon a star…”
[a nice YouTube version, with Hubble pics & starting w. a brief 2001 audio snippet.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7qU1Ik2HQ
I just actually NOTICED the line (see * below): “Fate is kind; SHE…”…i.e…no god is mentioned. ‘Fate’ being kind, might, in this case, be the fact that humans have evolved Science/Medicine to help…? AND…Fate is a SHE, no less! (Yeah, I know…it’s La-La Land.)
Just for curiosity, here are the complete lyrics:
When you wish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are
Anything your heart desires
Will come to you
If your heart is in your dream
No request is too extreme
When you wish upon a star
As dreamers do
*FATE is kind
SHE brings to those who love
The sweet fulfillment of
Their secret longing
Like a bolt out of the blue
Fate steps in and sees you through
When you wish upon a star
Your dreams come true
What’s that?…
“Chuck…Chuck…Earth (GifS?) calling Chuck…
It’s only a fantasy song! Click your heals three times…and wake the fuck up!”
2 February 2010, on 3:54 pm
I’ve actually found that substituting the word “thoughts” for “prayers” is pretty workable. I agree that it feels awkward, but it’s really no more devoid of content than the prayer version is, and people seem to like it almost as much. It does work better in the greeting card/short comment post format than in a face-to-face discussion. I suppose face-to-face I lean towards trying to express empathy in a more direct way — “I can’t imagine how hard it must be to x,” or “It must be a real challenge to deal with x right now, especially given y; how are you handling that?” Offers to help in whatever ways are feasible are also good, of course.
2 February 2010, on 3:59 pm
Here is the latest comment to the thread concerning the baby who is having surgery:
If they really had magical powers, Patrick wouldn’t be in this situation.
What you say Chuck above about not saying anything at all…if I don’t say anything, that is interpreted as not caring, also. Can’t win.
I like that.
Chuck that is exactly what the praying folks are doing when they use their magical beads and talk to their imaginary friend…they are basically wishing upon a star. The intentions are good and I do understand that, but I would really love to ask…”why did your god let this tiny helpless baby be born defective in the first place?”
2 February 2010, on 5:39 pm
I think that telling a loved one that they are in my thoughts perfectly captures what those who promise to pray actually mean. I ran into trouble finding grief cards a couple of years back and ended up buying blank cards and writing a quote from Emerson that I really liked at the time and expressing my sympathy. Clearly, this isn’t the same as well-wishing, but isn’t well-wishing the best anyone can do?
2 February 2010, on 5:53 pm
^ That last point, Star, is something we’d ALL just love to bring up; but of course…
we atheist are WAY too moral and compassionate to do something like that…right? (snark?)
Thinking, again, of my reference to my classmate’s breast cancer operation (the double mastectomy), and coupling that with all the recent talk about the recent Repig’s Retreat prayer breakfast ANE the upcoming “bipartisan prayer breakfast”(?)…why is it that all these delusionals can’t somehow think to at least focus on asking for the COMPLETE elimination of even ONE disease.
Saaaay…oh-I-dunno…Cancer?
I’d say, they all KNOW, at least subconsciously(?), that prayer is total bullshit.
As many of us atheists have in some way or another said…and so often…that the Abrahamic god, in particular, is the absolute WORST notion of any imaginary god that man has so stupidly & even spitefully dreamed up ; as Dawkins has so eloquently pointed out.
Just a reminder…?:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
And, if that isn’t enough; his supposed “son” (”God” having no wife or daughter, of course) Jesus does absolutely nothing, in essence, to improve on that. In fact, he even makes things FAR worse and much crueler; introducing (with help from that fucktard “I blancked out and fell off my horse” Paul) the outrageously cruel notion of, absolutely unjust, Eternal punishment and damnation in a fucking idiotic Hell…just for not believing.
WTF???
And THAT, totally fucked up notion of a god, as we atheists point out so often, is what all those Christian fucktards worship; and so ignorantly, stupidly, and incessantly…without batting an evolutionary eye, actually “pray” to…
talking only to themselves, of course!
How insane is that?
2 February 2010, on 5:56 pm
^ ANE = AND (Sheesh!)
2 February 2010, on 9:33 pm
I simply say “You’re in my thoughts, and I really hope that things work out for the best.” Which is true, and no deities were invoked. And I add “Let me know what I can do,” as that means more than “Let me pray to Santa again.”
3 February 2010, on 1:35 am
Sorry for the previous comment on the wrong topic!
As a truly out of the closet Atheist I think that it is time to address the illusions of theists precisely as they would address you, if you said you were going to pray to the Spaghetti Monster; your invisible creator in the sky. “If you think you can pray for a cure than why do you have millions of dollars worth of hospital equipment and personnel at your side?” It seems illogical to pray for a cure when according to your religious logic, God has created you this way and man is the one you should be praying to. And again according to your religious logic if your surgery happens not to be as successful as what you prayed for, your answer will be, “it must just be part of Gods plan.” Which begs the answer, than if it is your Gods plan why waste time praying to change the plan? Can you imagine a universe where God has to change his plans every time some one prays for something. So praying to the Spaghetti Monster will result in the same result you will get by praying to your God; a bad result about 50% of the time and a good result 50% of the time and if your not satisfied with the result you are of course going to respond, “it must be Gods plan.” By the time you explain all this to the patient, she/he, will probably hate you but it is time to be as positive and proactive about these things as the Theists usually are.
3 February 2010, on 11:05 am
Assuming your network site is Facebook, or something along those lines, I have exactly the same problem. My page plainly lists me as a pro-science atheist, so lying is out of the question. But most of the people who’ve “friended” me are old school friends whose views are typically different from mine.
There is constant gibberish about prayer, not to mention herbal and other non-traditional “medicine,” astrology, and other assorted woo. Some of my “friends” are professional practitioners of woo.
I have no idea what to say to them. I have no prayers, and even my thoughts will do them no good if they’ve lost a loved one or are facing health problems.
So I just don’t say anything. If I get started, I’m afraid it will quickly degenerate into “Everybody here is completely full of shit.”
I’ve read the previous comments, and I still haven’t seen any ideas useful to me.
So, I don’t know, pray for me or something.
3 February 2010, on 12:48 pm
I find the whole “pray for me” thing pretty annoying personally, but I also understand the place of helplessness it usually comes from, not that I think it does any good of course.. That said, I still don’t offer prayers, but depending on whee the person is, I will visit them, call them, email them, etc to let them know I care about them and am concerned about their well-being.
3 February 2010, on 2:54 pm
There is constant gibberish about prayer, not to mention herbal and other non-traditional “medicine,” astrology, and other assorted woo.
I find that most of the god botherers who request prayers or say “I’m praying for you” are also the ones who post their astrological reading each and every day, the “luck” application is a popular thing at the moment and all you do is click on an icon and it gives you a luck percentage. Goofy stuff. The most superstitious folks who follow all sorts of magical “woo” are god believers.
3 February 2010, on 3:19 pm
Doesn’t the bible warn against consulting the stars, or some such? Oh well, I’ve never met a xian who’s actually read the bible. It also prohibits graven images. What the hell do they think all those crucifixes are? And those hilarious “portraits” of Jebus, blue eyes and all, you’ll find in every home in West Virginia.
3 February 2010, on 9:15 pm
I have a phrase that works for me with the prayer-beggers. I just assure them that I will think good thoughts and light a hamster for them. I have never had anyone ask me what I meant. Either they aren’t really listening or they don’t want to know. And no, I don’t actually set hamsters on fire. I do, however, shine a flashlight at them.
3 February 2010, on 10:25 pm
^not to mention the jesus fishes on all the cars and in the yellow page ads where I live. I got into a discussing with a xtian once, arguing that posting such images in the yellow pages is the modern day equivalent of the merchants in the gospels selling their wares in the temple. You know, the part where jesus lost his shit and turned over all the kiosks (or whatever the Hebrews called their “Sunglass Huts” back then), She told me I didn’t know what I was talking about because, after all, I’m not a believer. The BS xtians pull out of their asses.
3 February 2010, on 10:36 pm
Back on topic: Stardust–this exact thing happened to me today on Facebook. The friend in question is 1500 miles away, and I really only communicate with her and her husband via this medium. I simply stated that I was hoping for the best for her grandfather and her family and that I wish I could do more to help–I know this is no more effective than prayer, but it is:
1) 100% honest
2) The most I am capable of doing given the circumstances
3) Probably going to make her feel a little better–probably as much so as anyone who said they would pray–and that’s what the whole “I’ll pray for you” thing is really about.
Honestly, when I hear “I’ll pray for you,” I question how many of those people actually even do so. It’s annoying to us atheists and skeptical freethinkers and it rubs me the wrong way when someone says it to me, but I just remember that the people that say this generally have the best of intentions and there’s nothing wrong with that. No reason to be a dick–I just say “thanks” and smile.
4 February 2010, on 3:36 am
Maybe… “I can’t pray for you, because that goes against who I am. However, if there’s anything I can do, please let me know.”
Although “because that goes against who I am” is pretty vague, I think they would get the point and be happy and grateful in the end that you care.
4 February 2010, on 10:26 am
Fritzy, you sound like a nicer person than I.
Sometimes I just prefer to be a dick.
The name of this website pretty well sums up my view of believers in invisible friends, ridiculous conspiracy theories and goofy medical advice. Sometimes I just have to be a dick.
4 February 2010, on 11:26 am
^littlejohn;
I work in medicine, so I hear the invocation of intervention from invisible friends on a daily basis–several times a day, not just from my patients but from co-workers as well. I had to learn to let it go if I wanted to keep what’s left of my hair and sanity.
4 February 2010, on 5:38 pm
Every day this friend of mine is putting up status reports for her grandson which people feel the need to continue the prayer talk bullshit. I wrote a couple of lines about being glad for modern medicine that they can do so much nowdays and people recover so quickly afterwards even from the most extensive and intricate operations and what was the comment right under mine?
“He’s in my prayers”.
4 February 2010, on 6:36 pm
And today (2/4/10) Obama attended that utterly stupid, and essentially, IMO, unconstitutional “C Street” sponsored prayer breakfast. Which demonstrates, to me, that no matter how intelligent someone like Obama is, in many, or even most aspects of their lives; when it comes to belief, they’re somewhere out in La-La land, approaching, perhaps, a “Black Hole” (no ‘double entendre’ allowed?)…teetering right on the ‘event horizon’, perhaps?
On that note…
“Ethics group urges president, lawmakers to boycott prayer breakfast”:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/feb/04/ethics-group-urges-president-lawmakers-boycott-pra/
Also, Jeff Sharlet…whom I suspect might show up tonight on Olbermann and/or Rachel Maddow(?)…talking with liberal progressive, Thom Hartmann about the prayer breakfast, “The Family”, Uganda, etc.
“Are religious cults killing democracy? with Jeff Sharlet”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGyOPumCXeA
4 February 2010, on 9:06 pm
Some of my wife’s Filipino relatives are my FB friends, and I see on their comments or in their postings they get into the “God” talk sometimes. None of it is ever addressed towards me though. Anyone who clicks on my profile can see that I am an atheist, but I otherwise steer clear of it.
5 February 2010, on 12:48 am
Tommy, I avoid getting into any kind of religious “debate” on FB. I have so many god believing friends and relatives that my newsfeed is full of “god bless”, “have a blessed day”…and “praying for you”. I had to “hide” my aunt because she got to be too obnoxious with her Babble passage a day for her status updates and I could tell they were directed intentionally toward me and other “heathens” so was glad to find the nifty little “hide” button. But can’t hide everyone! LOL! I have a few atheist/agnostic friends on there and we all manage to just roll with it. It’s just the good friends who request prayers and everyone follows with the “praying for you” crap and makes my neutral statement stand out as totally different and probably seems uncaring to the believers.
I wrote my friend a private message …the one with the sick grandson who is having heart surgery tomorrow. I wrote her that if she needs to talk, needs someone to listen to just call me up and I am all ears and ready to let her vent. She has to keep it together for her daughter and son-in-law but I know as the grandmother she is so nervous and worried. She was very thankful to me for my offer and says she is going to take me up on it.
5 February 2010, on 6:43 pm
I just wonder whether being passive toward someone’s delusion in order not to disturb their fuzzy feeling, really is, beneficial to their psyche? Granted it is empathetic to act this way but in the long run does it do more harm than good by augmenting their serious delusion? For instance, there is a time in the life of a child when believing in the Santa Claus myth is no longer a viable mental condition; is this a also true for an adult with the proclivity to pray to a benevolent figure of legend, the mythical adult Santa Claus?
This brings up an even larger issue: is the conditioning of a child to believe in the Santa Claus myth analogous to child abuse? If it is, than is the same situation in adults adult abuse? It would appear that the answer is, yes, since with the child the Santa Claus myth is perpetrated by religious seers at a time when the child is mentally immature.
5 February 2010, on 7:01 pm
To continue!
Is the adult with the mental delusion also mentally immature? Then it behooves us to allow this condition to persist or to augment the condition by appeasing their delusion. Of course, it goes without saying that the reason the adult is suffering from this delusion is that as a child they were mentally abused by the Santa Claus myth and when Santa Claus no longer was a figment of the child’s imagination the religious conditioners switched them to another similar if not identical myth. I call it “adult mental abuse” when we allow this to continue!
5 February 2010, on 11:41 pm
Well, here is a prayer someone posted on the woman’s site for her grandson…shows up on my newsfeed, of course
Heavenly Father creates a kid with Down’s Syndrome and defects….and they say this “heavenly father” has a plan and purpose for the baby. HOWEVER, they don’t like how this little one was created and want their god to fix the defects he created the baby with. They ask this imaginary being to protect him with his “hands of healing and protection, HOWEVER asking that this imaginary being guide the hands of the doctors and give them wisdom….
The doctors have spent many years in school and already have the wisdom and know how to operate and repair the problems the baby has or they would not be cutting into the baby to save him. NO magical prayers is going to heal the baby so that he doesn’t have to be cut open and his little heart stopped and cut into. These people just don’t even realize how dumbass and contradictory their prayers are.
6 February 2010, on 1:32 am
Interesting comment, Stardust! Reminds me of when I had by-pass surgery a number of years ago. Luckily, I had the choice of having the procedure done in the same Hospital that my son was doing his fellowship in Gastroenterology. I didn’t pray but I did feel safer knowing that my son was familiar with the surgeons, residents and fellows, nurses, techs and everyone else who make a hospital the miracle that it is. It’s always good to keep in mind that early in the history of hospitals they were places where people went to die; now the expectation has changed and if a patient doesn’t come out of the hospital better than when he went in, there’s a law suit. At any rate in the operating room I distinctly remember having my chest shaved by a tech who had been a barber in the past and remember him asking me how I felt about such a risky procedure. My reply was that two things could happen, the first would be that the surgery would be successful and I would recover, and then have to face a lot of aggravation that often come to one with a busy life style; second, that the surgery would not go well and I wouldn’t survive in which case I would have no more problems. We both laughed at that and when I recovered I didn’t thank God, I thanked the surgeons, nurses and everyone else who performed admirably on my behalf. When in the recovery room I remember while still on a lot of pain medication a minister coming to see me. He began asking me questions about my beliefs and after I was out of recovery I recall him coming to me again and telling me that my answer when he asked what I believed, went something like this; ” life is like being on a train where everybody has to get off at some time, some sooner than others and when you get off, that’s it.” He smiled at me and began to walk away and in that smile I think, for a second, I saw the facial expression of someone thinking; “he’s probably right! “
6 February 2010, on 2:29 am
Helplessness is a terrible feeling, but sometimes there really is nothing we can do about the situation.
I think that is why people are so vulnerable to religious nonsense in times of crisis. Even if they can do nothing to help, they can make themselves feel better by praying. That’s all it really does.
As for what an atheist should offer instead, let them know you care and that they are not alone. Assure them that the doctors are doing everything that can be done. If they insist on clinging to religion (or alt-med woo) try to dissuade them, but do so gently. Unfortunately this may often be a no-win situation for an atheist. The hardest thing is probably going to be dealing with the frustration of it all.
6 February 2010, on 3:39 am
Q. “What should an atheist offer instead of prayers?”
A. Competence and honesty.
6 February 2010, on 12:48 pm
I personally cannot add anything new to what has already been given to this discussion, because it’s already been said at this point, but I can offer a thought from someone else….
Want to know what Nietzsche said about prayer?
Click here.
6 February 2010, on 4:48 pm
Tony D;
I agree with that you atheists are indeed doing the believer a disservice by allowing them to continue in their delusion, no matter how good it makes them feel. That said, when a person is in a time of need is not time to try to alert them to their delusion–they and everyone around you will simply dismiss you (and by extension pretty much all other non-believers) as crass, opportunistic assholes. Hell, I would probably even agree with them.
For me, my deconversion took place with small seeds being planted, typically in an envelope of humor. There was no single argument that convinced me to leave my delusion behind. You may not feel you are getting through to the believer, but you may very well be chipping away at the veneer. That said, the true skill comes in choosing the time and place. Typically that has to occur at the invitation of the person in question. Brining it up when someone offers a prayer to the individuals dying kid is counterproductive.
6 February 2010, on 8:33 pm
Fritzy;
“I agree with that you atheists are indeed doing the believer a disservice by allowing them to continue in their delusion, no matter how good it makes them feel. That said, when a person is in a time of need is not time to try to alert them to their delusion–they and everyone around you will simply dismiss you (and by extension pretty much all other non-believers) as crass, opportunistic assholes. Hell, I would probably even agree with them.”
I totally agree with your above comment I am sure my comments came off as a bit idealistic for in reality I would probably bite my tongue and shake my head in acquiescence.
16 February 2010, on 2:06 am
Stardust, if you still have my email address, look me up on the facebooks.