Comments on: Allegories Gone Wild – Fatima And The Sundog http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/ THIS BLOG IS NO LONGER ACTIVE. We've retired this blog, but the GifS gang is now active at Atheist Oasis (atheistoasis.wordpress.com). Visit us there! Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:44:32 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: KA http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422580 KA Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:00:42 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422580 Thanks for all that info, DRB, but these things aren't mentioned in the criticism of the event. Did some checking... Well, here's a set of photos of the event - & there <i>was</i> a lot of people there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIs8cuIwTo&feature=player_embedded - about 4:36 you see this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/38092182@N00/2516125606/ & it's pretty anti-climactic. It just looks like a huge dot up in the sky. Only photo I know of. Not even close to being pareidolia, more like delusion. A little closer research, & I think the thing may be a mock moon mirage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_of_astronomical_objects Given the quality of the photography, but then again, the picture doesn't look that close to the horizon. Still a stumper as to how the kids knew in advance about the thing, though. Thanks for all that info, DRB, but these things aren’t mentioned in the criticism of the event.
Did some checking…
Well, here’s a set of photos of the event – & there was a lot of people there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIs8cuIwTo&feature=player_embedded – about 4:36 you see this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38092182@N00/2516125606/
& it’s pretty anti-climactic. It just looks like a huge dot up in the sky. Only photo I know of. Not even close to being pareidolia, more like delusion.
A little closer research, & I think the thing may be a mock moon mirage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_of_astronomical_objects
Given the quality of the photography, but then again, the picture doesn’t look that close to the horizon.
Still a stumper as to how the kids knew in advance about the thing, though.

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By: Da Rat Bastid http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422571 Da Rat Bastid Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:09:19 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422571 Here's something else. It's on atmospheric conditions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrel_cell Now, check out the Westerlies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerlies Notice the map at the top. You can see that Portugal would experience quite a bit of weather generated from the westerlies. Both of these weather phenomenons were known before the start of the 20th century. My questions now would be if there were any stories in ancient folklore around the Madeiras that could be hijacked, and what the signifigance of the 13th day of the month is. Such as, was someone out there studying the weather patterns at mid month so this whole thing looks plausible to believers? Here’s something else. It’s on atmospheric conditions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrel_cell
Now, check out the Westerlies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerlies
Notice the map at the top. You can see that Portugal would experience quite a bit of weather generated from the westerlies. Both of these weather phenomenons were known before the start of the 20th century.
My questions now would be if there were any stories in ancient folklore around the Madeiras that could be hijacked, and what the signifigance of the 13th day of the month is. Such as, was someone out there studying the weather patterns at mid month so this whole thing looks plausible to believers?

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By: Da Rat Bastid http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422570 Da Rat Bastid Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:49:56 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422570 I might have something. Did you know the Madeira islands off the Portugese coast are part of a tectonic in-plate hotspot? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal#Geography Now, someone with any kind of background in geology and/or meteorology, (the event did happen in the fall, with cold air starting to push its' way south) one might be able to deduce when some type of strange atmospheric event could be possible. I'm curious as to the normal pattern the jet stream takes over that particular part of the Atlantic. I know I'm way out on a limb here, but I'm no scientist. I couldn't find any reference to similar events that happened with any regularity around the Madeiras. As for the fate of Lucia Santos and her cousins, it was not pretty. the cousins dies a year later. Jacinta felt the need to "confess her sins" before she died. her brother refused medical treatmant. Lucia was not allowed to talk to anyone outside the church hierarchy about the visions until she was a very old woman, when the church decided they wanted Marian visions to be used. She then wrote 6 books on the affair, which seems odd because she was blind and deaf by then. It's all very fascinating and disgusting all at once. I might have something. Did you know the Madeira islands off the Portugese coast are part of a tectonic in-plate hotspot?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal#Geography
Now, someone with any kind of background in geology and/or meteorology, (the event did happen in the fall, with cold air starting to push its’ way south) one might be able to deduce when some type of strange atmospheric event could be possible. I’m curious as to the normal pattern the jet stream takes over that particular part of the Atlantic.
I know I’m way out on a limb here, but I’m no scientist. I couldn’t find any reference to similar events that happened with any regularity around the Madeiras.
As for the fate of Lucia Santos and her cousins, it was not pretty. the cousins dies a year later. Jacinta felt the need to “confess her sins” before she died. her brother refused medical treatmant. Lucia was not allowed to talk to anyone outside the church hierarchy about the visions until she was a very old woman, when the church decided they wanted Marian visions to be used. She then wrote 6 books on the affair, which seems odd because she was blind and deaf by then.
It’s all very fascinating and disgusting all at once.

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By: KA http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422558 KA Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:49:28 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422558 DRB: Well thus far, I was looking for something to indicate how they predicted the day of the event. Note that it was published 3 times in a secular newspaper that ridiculed the event. As to the amount of people present, it's probably around 10,000, because we all know religious people like to inflate statistics to make it sound more grandiose. Or maybe 5,000. I doubt it was a handful & it gathered w/the years. Possible, yes. I was hoping someone more erudite than myself could point out that sundogs/parhelions were easy to predict in 1917, & that maybe the priest(s) involved had Jesuit connections (the Jesuits were very disciplined & tend to be scholars). It's the only real piece of the mystery that needs to be answered. There is of course, a logical explanation. Omne ignotum pro magnifico & all that. DRB:
Well thus far, I was looking for something to indicate how they predicted the day of the event. Note that it was published 3 times in a secular newspaper that ridiculed the event. As to the amount of people present, it’s probably around 10,000, because we all know religious people like to inflate statistics to make it sound more grandiose. Or maybe 5,000. I doubt it was a handful & it gathered w/the years. Possible, yes.
I was hoping someone more erudite than myself could point out that sundogs/parhelions were easy to predict in 1917, & that maybe the priest(s) involved had Jesuit connections (the Jesuits were very disciplined & tend to be scholars).
It’s the only real piece of the mystery that needs to be answered. There is of course, a logical explanation.
Omne ignotum pro magnifico & all that.

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By: Da Rat Bastid http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422555 Da Rat Bastid Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:11:12 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422555 KA, First, thanks for the compliment. I was just having a bit of fun with the priesthood. IMHO, they're nothing more than hucksters, like politicians or used car salesmen. They're driven just like any other organization; to protect or advance their own vested self interests. If you look at it through that prism, it's pretty easy to demystify a lot of what they're up to, and why things like this transpire. Of course they altered or made this crap up to fit their agenda! The questions I have are about the kids. I wonder if they were properly fed, if they were under the care of a monastery, what were their living conditions? Then, how abstract were these visions? How easy was it to make the hallucinations fit the message the church wanted to convey? The 3rd secret was very interesting as well, but I'm still trying to figure it out. Or rather, trying to figure out why Herr Ratzy felt he had to weigh in. Was it because it could be interpreted as backing up Nostrodomous and his prediction that catholicism is circling the drain? KA,
First, thanks for the compliment. I was just having a bit of fun with the priesthood. IMHO, they’re nothing more than hucksters, like politicians or used car salesmen. They’re driven just like any other organization; to protect or advance their own vested self interests. If you look at it through that prism, it’s pretty easy to demystify a lot of what they’re up to, and why things like this transpire.
Of course they altered or made this crap up to fit their agenda! The questions I have are about the kids. I wonder if they were properly fed, if they were under the care of a monastery, what were their living conditions?
Then, how abstract were these visions? How easy was it to make the hallucinations fit the message the church wanted to convey?
The 3rd secret was very interesting as well, but I’m still trying to figure it out. Or rather, trying to figure out why Herr Ratzy felt he had to weigh in. Was it because it could be interpreted as backing up Nostrodomous and his prediction that catholicism is circling the drain?

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By: David J http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422524 David J Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:24:52 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422524 I think that MSNBC article is filed under "Technology & Science" because they found actual bones that need specific scientific treatment to verify. If indeed it really is Paul's bones, they'll move the article to "Fiction." I hope. I lived in Brazil for a while during college, and a lot of Catholics have a "Nossa Senhora da Fatima" icon in their house. It's usually a small painting of the Virgin but her gown is this large, red triangle-shaped thing. Very strange. Sometimes people built shrines to her. I inquired about it a lot, but never heard of the "Tres Segredos" (3 secrets) until your post. Very informative. There are other instances in which a group of people (usually a small group) share a delusion or hallucination. The first that comes to mind are the "witnesses" to Joseph Smith's purported "plates of gold" from which he "translated" the Book of Mormon from an "ancient American" Egypto-Semitic hybrid language (a risible anachronism). Apparently there were three, and then later 8 people who "saw with their own eyes" the "engravings" for themselves. I have three theories on this: 1). Joseph made the plates himself, scribbled a bunch of gobbledy-gook on them, and passed them off to the others as authentic, 2). Collusion ("I'll pay you guys $100 each for claiming this is real. Deal?"), and 3). He put them in a trance (or "vision" as Mormons call it) and they "spiritually" hefted said engravings. How does this relate to "Nossa Senhora da Fatima?" 1. The three kids did actually see "something" together - maybe a storm or something - and then wanted some attention (like Joseph did) and fabricated a story from it. This is known as a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism" rel="nofollow">euhemerism</a> (a historical person or event that is later mythologized). 2. They just plain made this shit up. 3. They were ligitimately hypnotized by something. What amazes me is why this crap only ever happens to small groups of people. Even the "large group event" described above can't be nailed down for accuracy - the number is all over the place. If god is so ubiquitous and omnipresent, why the fuck don't large groups of people encounter him/her/it simultaneously and in one locale??? I think that MSNBC article is filed under “Technology & Science” because they found actual bones that need specific scientific treatment to verify. If indeed it really is Paul’s bones, they’ll move the article to “Fiction.” I hope.

I lived in Brazil for a while during college, and a lot of Catholics have a “Nossa Senhora da Fatima” icon in their house. It’s usually a small painting of the Virgin but her gown is this large, red triangle-shaped thing. Very strange. Sometimes people built shrines to her. I inquired about it a lot, but never heard of the “Tres Segredos” (3 secrets) until your post. Very informative.

There are other instances in which a group of people (usually a small group) share a delusion or hallucination. The first that comes to mind are the “witnesses” to Joseph Smith’s purported “plates of gold” from which he “translated” the Book of Mormon from an “ancient American” Egypto-Semitic hybrid language (a risible anachronism). Apparently there were three, and then later 8 people who “saw with their own eyes” the “engravings” for themselves. I have three theories on this: 1). Joseph made the plates himself, scribbled a bunch of gobbledy-gook on them, and passed them off to the others as authentic, 2). Collusion (”I’ll pay you guys $100 each for claiming this is real. Deal?”), and 3). He put them in a trance (or “vision” as Mormons call it) and they “spiritually” hefted said engravings. How does this relate to “Nossa Senhora da Fatima?”

1. The three kids did actually see “something” together – maybe a storm or something – and then wanted some attention (like Joseph did) and fabricated a story from it. This is known as a euhemerism (a historical person or event that is later mythologized).

2. They just plain made this shit up.

3. They were ligitimately hypnotized by something.

What amazes me is why this crap only ever happens to small groups of people. Even the “large group event” described above can’t be nailed down for accuracy – the number is all over the place. If god is so ubiquitous and omnipresent, why the fuck don’t large groups of people encounter him/her/it simultaneously and in one locale???

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By: KA http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422494 KA Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:27:32 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422494 DRB - I'm not sure what you're going on about @ this point. Your observation of the lack of Nazi Germany in the 'prediction' was brilliant. But I was hoping that someone could offer a bit more on the seeming fact that the 'miracle' was predicted to the day not once, but 3 different times in newsprint. In a secular newspaper that ridiculed the oncoming event, no less. The variance between witnesses of what transpired was to be expected. & documents can be altered, & it could very well have been that these claims (about the event predicted) were/are altered over the passage of time via oral transmission. I was trying to stimulate conversation about using detective skills to ferret out logical explanations for all this, outside of the usual retorts of 'religion is stupid' or whatnot. DRB – I’m not sure what you’re going on about @ this point. Your observation of the lack of Nazi Germany in the ‘prediction’ was brilliant. But I was hoping that someone could offer a bit more on the seeming fact that the ‘miracle’ was predicted to the day not once, but 3 different times in newsprint. In a secular newspaper that ridiculed the oncoming event, no less.
The variance between witnesses of what transpired was to be expected. & documents can be altered, & it could very well have been that these claims (about the event predicted) were/are altered over the passage of time via oral transmission.
I was trying to stimulate conversation about using detective skills to ferret out logical explanations for all this, outside of the usual retorts of ‘religion is stupid’ or whatnot.

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By: Da Rat Bastid http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/comment-page-1/#comment-422488 Da Rat Bastid Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:17:13 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2009/06/28/allegories-gone-wild-fatima-and-the-sundog/#comment-422488 Oh, and just so you all have a heads up, the Nazi pope has declared that he owns the bones of Paul: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31599704/ns/technology_and_science-science/ Yes, MSNBC categorized this bullshit under "science and technology". I feel dirty... Oh, and just so you all have a heads up, the Nazi pope has declared that he owns the bones of Paul:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31599704/ns/technology_and_science-science/
Yes, MSNBC categorized this bullshit under “science and technology”.
I feel dirty…

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