More Xian Terrorism
31 May 2009 by Bob
Just love that connection between xianity and morality…
Suspect arrested in connection with slaying of abortion provider George Tiller
Tiller, 67, was shot just after 10 a.m. in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Tiller was serving as an usher at the church, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot. A church member who did not want to be identified said the gunman threatened another person at the church after the shooting.
And, I think we can all guess how Bill-O’s reacting to the whole thing.
On Friday, November 3, 2006, Bill O’Reilly featured an exclusive segment on his show, The O’Reilly Factor, saying that he has an “inside source” with official clinic documentation indicating that George Tiller performs late-term abortions to alleviate “temporary depression” in the pregnant woman. According to reporting data provided to the Kansas Board of Healing Arts for the year 1998, all of the post-viable partial-birth (dilation and extraction) abortion procedures performed in Kansas during that year were performed because “the attending physician believe[d] that continuing the pregnancy [would] constitute a substantial and irreversible impairment of the patient’s mental function.
And, as usual, you won’t be seeing any characterization of this as “xian terrorism.” Because, as we all know, xians can never be terrorists…
But Bill-O’s role in this, if any –
O’Reilly calls Tiller the “so-called baby killer” below. He calls his outfit a “death-mill, which is exactly what it is”
– really reminds me of that movie…
31 May 2009, on 8:58 pm
This tragedy just demonstrates, at least to me…for the nth time…that religion is the MOST dangerous cause of mental illness. I’ve seen what it did in my own life to waste much of my early life, from bullshit religious brainwashing, on totally unwarranted and debilitating fear and guilt; which, for me, even contributed to a rather serious alcohol problem, and some rather unwise, early, even life altering decisions.
I think most of us atheists see how the religious ‘virus’ has grabbed a lifetime hold…even death grip…on the minds of most, if not all, of our various family members, friends, and associates.
It’s certainly obvious what religion has done, and continues to do, to the machinations of World events.
What’s a bit more frightening is that the seriously psychotic Right Wingers are now at a desperate stage with their increased recognition, since the election of Obama, of the apparent shutting down of their longtime hopes for overturning Roe v. Wade. What’s next may be an increase of this incident, and other manifestations of self-righteous madness; and then what…the retaliation response by increased Church burnings?
The anti-abortion motherfuckers…make that EVERYONE fuckers…as I’ve harped on so many times; completely overlook in their solipsistic, god-delusion, the WAY more common issue of natural miscarriages, which I call “God’s abortions”, and arrogantly want to poke their fucking, asinine, self-righteous noses in everyone else’s private lives.
With their “penis envy” infatuation with guns, the NRA, and bloodthirsty overlooking of religions’ role in ALL Wars; even more people will be carrying guns; including, of course, people on OUR side of the issue.
What!…more “Gunfights IN the OK Chorale”…Church?
31 May 2009, on 9:45 pm
People might ask me if I’m pissed at Skydaddy and I would have to reply, “No. BECAUSE HE DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST, YOU IDIOT!”. This act was carried out by some hate-filled piece of shit because it made him feel like GOD for one shining buffedturd moment. I hope the fucker spends the rest of his life in a small, dark room.
31 May 2009, on 10:03 pm
I’d just like to say this:
“Why are you atheists so angry?”
Gee, I wonder why we’re angry? Could it be that you religious morons continue to commit atrocities like this in the name of whichever flavor of god you happen to worship? Christian claim the moral high ground, they claim that without god you can’t be moral. Even if you worship a different god, that’s better than no god in their eyes. And yet you don’t see atheists doing these kinds of things. No, you see religious people killing doctors.
Let’s see them get a fetus to give them CPR.
31 May 2009, on 10:24 pm
I’m an atheist and I also think that late-term abortion is wrong. If the fetus is viable it should be birthed by caesarean (no more risky to the mother than the abortion procedure, one would think) and made available for adoption.
That said, there is that little thing called LAW and JUSTICE. Like, not going around shooting people because we don’t approve of their actions. If you’re going to follow your religion, do it properly. Doesn’t it say “Thou shalt not kill.” Um, like, not “Thou shalt not kill except when…..”
*sigh*
31 May 2009, on 10:59 pm
The anti-abortion motherfuckers…make that EVERYONE fuckers…as I’ve harped on so many times; completely overlook in their solipsistic, god-delusion, the WAY more common issue of natural miscarriages, which I call “God’s abortions”, and arrogantly want to poke their fucking, asinine, self-righteous noses in everyone else’s private lives.
Ramen!
1 June 2009, on 12:43 am
@ChuckA:
You are so right. I, too, have wrestled for years with an alcohol problem. The irony is that the solution inevitably recommended to me is AA, which is a repulsive christian cult with a 5 percent success record.
I’ve been doing much better lately, but AA has had nothing to do with it. My own rational determination has kept me from overdoing it. I’ve had doctors refuse to treat me for non-alcohol related problems unless I join a 12-step program.
AA apparently works for a tiny percentage of people, but it works no better than anything else for most of us. I hope it loses its overrated reputation during my lifetime. When judges order it, it’s clearly unconstitutional.
1 June 2009, on 5:01 am
littlejohn…Re the alcohol problem (my OT apology to Bob)…
not to get into that TOO far here; just a few bits and pieces of my “search for oblivion” story. Back in 1976, working in a band as a bass guitar/singer, I missed an afternoon “jobbing” (private party band) gig because of still being drunk from a three day binge. To cut to the chase, I managed to make the evening gig, and the drummer, sober for a few years, introduced me to AA. I spent the next 10 years “slipping and sliding”, as they say, never staying sober for more than a few months. Finally, something clicked in May of 1986, the last time I drank. Already being an agnostic, I never quite bought into the “God as Higher Power” shtick, and was never a daily AA meeting addict. Also, by that time, I’d gotten rather turned off by the rising number of so many Catholic and fundie types trying to influence, even take over, AA. About the same time I read an excellent (IMHO) book called “Deceptions and Myths of the Bible” by Lloyd M. Graham. That one book really influenced me greatly in becoming an atheist. The last meeting I actually attended was in 1993; even though, while not attending any meetings, I continued washing the Club’s windows gratis (another part time job), as a sort of gratitude to the Club. That ended in 1998 when I started teaching private lessons in a Chicago suburban Music studio. Skipping forward; I’ve been completely sober since; in other words its been 23 years.
Now…what’s my penultimate point?
The one, basic, thing I learned in AA…the “Day at a time!” concept became an automatic; and over time…especially during the first year of sobriety…I completely lost the compulsion to use alcohol, and ANY drugs to medicate away problems. I had exhausted so many tricks to “control” that I had tried over those 10 years…that never worked…but just ended in very non-blissful oblivion; followed, of course, by terrible hangovers. I DID manage, through that period, to keep faking sobriety and playing my mainly “weekend warrior” gigs.
HOWEVER…add to that the realization I finally came to since I’ve been an atheist…
like Penn & Teller (those smart and clever atheists!) say in what I think is a really eye-opening YouTube video about 12 Step programs (in three parts; from their Showtime “Bullshit” series)…
I have the power within myself…absolutely no phony-ass, non-existent, gods are needed…to live each day without returning to that miserable (and rather stupid) slave-like addicted state…which almost certainly would eventually happen if I took the first drink. Today…sometimes JUST today…but, ALWAYS TODAY…
I never want to be a slave to anyone, anything, or any substance…and, of course, certainly, as an atheist…any stupid, Bullshit, Religion.
I love Freedom WAY too much to trade it away for some deceptive, ultra-short lived, ultimately painful, even possibly dangerous to myself and others…state of mindless numbness. Enough said, already!
By the way, littlejohn, thanks for sharing!
As they say in AA: “You’re not alone!” And may I add(?)…
not even here, on GifS!!!
In case you, or others, haven’t seen it (or even to see it again…it’s that informative and entertaining!); here’s the link to the 1st of 3 parts of that P&T video series…
“Penn & Teller: Bullshit! 12 Stepping Part I”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUr1HqypR2M
Soooo…what’s next next, dear brothers and sisters?
“Religious Terrorists Anonymous”?
I can just imagine the first meeting:
“Hi! I’m Osama…and I’m a fucking ISLAMIC Terrorist!”
[cue sound F/X of chair leg squeeks, panicky shoe scuffling, gun cocking, and...
some muffled farting?]
1 June 2009, on 9:50 am
“Hi! I’m Osama…and I’m a fucking ISLAMIC Terrorist!”
bwahahahaha!
1 June 2009, on 9:55 am
I sure wish that Bill O’s mom had had an abortion.
1 June 2009, on 10:00 am
So, ChuckA, would you say your sobriety and atheism sort of emerged together? That would be so awesome.
1 June 2009, on 11:44 am
ChuckA: Congrats on your recovery. I followed the trail blazed by Jack Trimpey and Rational Recovery. Been sober since August 1, 2006. RR works.
I did attend AA, but only for the sake of public ritual. RR eschews any kind of “group” therapy, but since it’s so intensely private, it doesn’t help in dealing with family/friends, so I had to do the AA dance to just “prove” I was “doing something”. I was living with my parents at the time and going to AA kept them off my back. Once I got a better job and moved out on my own, I said “Adios” to AA and never looked back.
I’m glad I actually consulted the RR website before ever attending my first AA meeting, since RR cautions you about the risks of AA.
BTW, Being against so called “gun control” (as Penn & Teller are, too) of course doesn’t mean supporting murderers like this Xtian terrorist.
I guess I’m a bit surprised the doctor was a churchgoer at all. Many physicians are openly atheists, and are also (mostly) hard-nosed scientific rationalists.
1 June 2009, on 12:01 pm
I’m an atheist and I also think that late-term abortion is wrong. If the fetus is viable it should be birthed by caesarean (no more risky to the mother than the abortion procedure, one would think) and made available for adoption.
Well, since I am not alone now in my opinion, I will say I must agree with Helen and say I disagree with late-term abortion. I can’t understand why killing a viable fetus is better than just having the baby and giving it up for adoption if the pregnancy was allowed to progress into the last trimester. There is really no good reason for late term abortion. The woman will still have to go through the trauma and pain of birth either way whether the baby is allowed to live or not. Women can find out they are pregnant right away with new modern test kits that can be used at home. So there is no excuse to wait so long. I just can’t go along with partially birthing your baby, having it’s brains sucked out and then birthing the dead body. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
As for the doctor who was murdered, I also agree with Helen and cannot condone that. If it was religiously motivated, how typically hypocritical of him. What do we know about the killer? Was it religiously motivated or some dude pissed off that his wife or girlfriend aborted his child? Gotta get more information. I am sure though that there are many on the “right to lifers” who are praising the killer’s actions and praising Jeebus all-the-while.
1 June 2009, on 1:14 pm
Looks like the gunman was a typically anti-abortion obsessed loonie who decided to take matters into his own hands.
1 June 2009, on 1:26 pm
“[...] his hands were covered with blood.”
Nice, Terry. Now so are yours.
1 June 2009, on 1:33 pm
I work in the same building as O’Reilly. If I saw him in the lobby today, I would strongly have to resist the urge to deck him right there. But, I am going on a scuba diving trip to Belize in August, and can’t allow anything to interfere with that.
As for late-term abortions themselves, I have to give the benefit of the doubt that a pregnant woman seeking one has a valid reason for doing so. An abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her physician. A woman’s uterus is not a public domain and the rest of society should have no say in the matter. Now, if those concerned want to offer incentives to encourage women considering late-term abortions (assuming it is not a matter of the fetus having a serious birth defect or other such reason), I would encourage them to do so. But ultimately, the decision is hers, not yours.
1 June 2009, on 1:35 pm
If anyone cares, there’s a whole list of beautiful and caring religious people commenting on the Tiller murder.
Regarding the discussions of late-term abortions: Although I can definitely see how they could be morally problematic — i.e., late-term fetuses, unlike first-trimester fetuses, are sentient — I think two things could be made in their favor (and of course, I don’t know if any of these reasons apply to Tiller’s clients): (1) they only account for a very small number of abortions (first-trimester abortions are usually the rule), and (2) they’re almost always done for reasons that make at least a little sense, such as the health of the mother or severe genetic and/or physiological defects.
1 June 2009, on 3:02 pm
Orzo:
“So, ChuckA, would you say your sobriety and atheism sort of emerged together? That would be so awesome.”
Actually, I hadn’t thought of it in quite that way; but in retrospect, I’d have to have to answer that with a yes.
As to any “awesome” aspect…thanks, by the way, for the implied compliment…it’s really awesome, these days, to have the Internet; and places like GifS (atheist comfort zones?) to share just about anything. Your comment reminds me of a sort of similarity between being an alcoholic and being an atheist; for totally different reasons, of course, they’ve both been traditionally treated with anathema by society. Today, however, I’d say being an atheist actually produces WAY more ire from the public; especially in the USA. In fact, as we all know, because of all the celebrities in and out of rehab., it’s become almost ‘chic’ to be a recovering addict!
Soooo…in a way…
I got the double-whammy?
JJR:
“ChuckA: Congrats on your recovery. I followed the trail blazed by Jack Trimpey and Rational Recovery. Been sober since August 1, 2006. RR works.”
Thanks for your response. Regarding RR…my first awareness of that great program came by way of a fellow musician, while working a steady gig at Sears Tower (2000-2005). He, an agnostic, was also turned off by AA. Another reason, I’d say, the Internet is so fantastic…instant info on, literally, ANYTHING!
As to the subject of this Post…some great comments.
Randall Terry, IMO, is a completely ignorant and arrogant…and DANGEROUS…totally brainwashed fuckhead.
The religious, totally bullshit, “Pro-Life” argument regarding abortion…specifically the Xtian version…based as it is, SUPPOSEDLY, on the totally delusional Bible, which actually has nothing in it, specifically, about “abortion”; can never seem to make the connection with the original source…that being the Jewish tradition. The Jews have always considered that a “fetus” is only considered a “child” AFTER it is born…taking its first breath. And that has NO basis, or connection, with the development of, and/or use of today’s technology!
Instead of quoting an excerpt, here’s the link (Yeah, again!) to one of the best articles, I think, on the subject.
[I recommend keeping the link ‘handy’ somewhere for…let’s say…any relevant “family/friend type distribution”?
It’s ffrf’s “What Does The Bible Say About Abortion?”:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php
Tangentially to the latter, aside from the whole miscarriage issue; up until rather recently, with the advent of modern Scientific technology, most premature births never stood a chance of surviving. I guess, however, it all fits together, somehow, in Gawd’s monstrously baffling (but oh-so loving?) “Plan”…?
1 June 2009, on 5:19 pm
Well, since I am not alone now in my opinion, I will say I must agree with Helen and say I disagree with late-term abortion. I can’t understand why killing a viable fetus is better than just having the baby and giving it up for adoption if the pregnancy was allowed to progress into the last trimester. There is really no good reason for late term abortion.
Here, amongst rational people, I can admit that I too would be willing to accept some restrictions on late term abortions. But I have enough braindead moronic fundamentalist relatives to know they are not reasonable people. So, let me make a couple of points.
First off, fundamentalist nutjobs believe that the “soul” magically pops into existence at the very instant the sperm units with the egg. This “soul” thing is all they are concerned about. If we give up the third trimester that does do end the battle. The lunatics will still be lunatics. Nothing will change except that now we are battling over two trimesters instead of three. And then one trimester instead of three……… But in public it is not good strategy to give up the third trimester nor even the last day until we get something in return.
And more important, this “soul” thingy is a religious belief. In this country we do not get to make laws based on our religious beliefs (theoretically anyway). And morality is just as irrelevant. If someone will come up with reason to limit abortions that is any of the governments business. Then that should be considered. But short of a real reason, I cannot support the limiting of a woman’s right to control her own body for even a second.
1 June 2009, on 5:38 pm
I guess maybe my opinion stems from having a premature baby, my daughter was two months premature and seeing as she was fully-formed, breathing and crying, etc. I have a hard time with supporting killing a baby in the last trimester when many of them can survive on their own even without medical aid. (My daughter did need breathing assistance for a time.)
As long then as a child is connected to its mother with an umbilical cord, then it’s okay to kill it? A second after birth it’s an independent, viable human being living on it’s own and to kill it then it is murder, according to the laws of the land. That is why I cannot bring myself to support late-term abortion.
With the medical technology we have, and with medical care provided even in free clinics such as Planned Parenthood and other organizations a woman has the opportunity to find out early if she is pregnant, to find out of the baby is deformed or mentally handicapped at very early stages in pregnancy. That is why I say there is no reason. As for depression, the woman has taken it that far she will be going through the process of having that child dead or alive. It does not alleviate her physical or mental suffering.
I can see where there would be a problem as to where to draw that fine line of what is legal abortion and what is murder. How would we decide that? As for me, it’s just my opinion that a woman is insane to wait that long to get herself into that late-term dilemma. It’s stupid.
1 June 2009, on 6:38 pm
For the record, I actually brought this point up with a friend of mine who’s a pediatrician, and she replied that there are many abnormalities, if they exist, that simply cannot be detected at the early stages. It’s a technology thing, surely — just as viability is a technology thing.
As for Tommykey’s comment…
…I’ve always found the appeal to bodily integrity and its connection to the law fascinating, and need to do some more research in this area.
1 June 2009, on 7:52 pm
I guess there would be a lot of determining factors concerning late-term abortions. I don’t know enough statistics to know how many late-term abortions are performed because of deformity of the fetus. But as far as safety to the mother in the last trimester, the fetus is so large that whether dead or alive, the mother must give birth via vaginal or c-section. Even if the mother developed medical problems, a c-section or induced labor would be performed regardless.
1 June 2009, on 8:24 pm
I agree with Tommykey.
And Dr Tiller’s death is reprehensible! Anyone involved in the horrid campaign against him should be charged as conspirators in his murder.
Here’s a good article about the bravery of Dr George Tiller: http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/bravery-george-tiller
1 June 2009, on 8:38 pm
I think it is best to leave the practice of medicine to qualified professionals and resist the ploys of abortion opponents.
As I read at one Canadian site: Abortion opponents target rare cases of late term abortion, describing it in horrific detail,
to evoke an emotional response in listeners. Their ultimate goal is to restrict all abortion rights. What these
lobbyists strategically fail to mention, however, is that banning late term abortions would force
women pregnant with dying fetuses to give birth at great risk to their own health, undermining
both the rights of women and the medical authority of doctors.
http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/postionpapers/22-Late-term-Abortions.PDF
1 June 2009, on 8:39 pm
OT…Nothing Earth Shattering, but…
Did anyone else see (so-called) “Comedian/author” Steve Harvey on CNN with Joy Behar over the weekend?
I was totally unaware of this ignorant asshole, Harvey. I say asshole, because, when asked by Joy Behar [one of my favorite comedians] about his attitude toward atheists, he responds like a complete fundie jackass.
Actually, I was really quite disappointed with Behar, whom I’ve suspected for a long time might even be an atheist herself. If she is; she skipped any opportunity to really dispute him, in order, I’m guessing, to protect her own anonymity.
In other words, she hasn’t come out of closet yet!
Anyway, if interested…here’s the link…see what you think?…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySYpTs1rIGc#t=3m46s
1 June 2009, on 10:42 pm
I can’t speak with any authority but it appears from what I’ve read that those women who sought Dr. Tiller’s help were not able to deliver babies that would be viable, in any meaningful sense, or had health problems which were caused or exacerbated by the pregnancy. When the fundies that oppose abortions are willing to adopt the babies–every last one of them–what’s that, oh, I didn’t think so.
1 June 2009, on 11:13 pm
ChuckA, I think Steve Harvey mouthed his antiatheist ignorance on the Tyra Banks show. Then again, he could be making the rounds.
Thanks for your supporting words, Lynda. The anti-choice (or forced-birth) crowd likes to create this impression that women seeking the procedure are just doing so on whim and that doctors like Tiller offer the service because they just get off on killing the pre-born. And the Holocaust rhetoric they employ, such as calling places that provide abortions “abortuaries”, inflames these people to an extent that killing abortion providers is the logical next step.
I have seen a number of bloggers address this, and I suspected it would be the case as well, that with Democrats in control of both the White House and both houses of Congress, the anti-choice zealots would start resorting to violence again after being relatively quiet during the Bush years, because they would perceive that the legislative process was no longer going to accomodate them.
2 June 2009, on 1:21 am
[Yahoo News 6/1/09]:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090602/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_shooting_suspect
’snip’
“Roeder’s family life began unraveling more than a decade ago when he got involved with anti-government groups, and then became “very religious in an Old Testament, eye-for-an-eye way,” his former wife, Lindsey Roeder, told The Associated Press.”
The “eye-for-an-eye” reference reminds me of the famous quote, attributed to Mahatma Gandhi:
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
If Roeder is indeed the killer; by his own warped ‘logic’ he certainly deserves death. Assuming he doesn’t get leniency on some mental illness, or temporary insanity plea…life imprisonment, without parole, is probably more in line with our current sentencing practices. Which means, of course, the public will pay lots and lots of money to keep the insane fucking asshole locked up.
Hmmm…Guantanamo?…he IS a terrorist, after all. [Yeah...and then where?]
One can certainly imagine much more appropriate execution scenarios, of course.
["Oh, for those good ole days! Crucifixions, burning at the stake, hanging upside down, yada, yada..."]
The somewhat appropriate, old firing squad method, no longer used in the US, of course, in this case, seems almost a bit too tame.
Seriously…If it’s the death penalty…which I’m normally (or even abnormally) against, by the way…it should be made VERY public; in other words…broadcast nationwide? (shades of a George Carlin bit)…so other delusional fundie fucks will get the message…loud and clear!
I know…it ain’t gonna happen that way!
2 June 2009, on 11:12 am
banning late term abortions would force
women pregnant with dying fetuses to give birth at great risk to their own health
But that is what the woman is doing anyway, giving birth. There are only two ways out for the fetus…natural vaginal delivery or c-section whether the baby is dead or alive. I had a stillborn baby and let me tell you that childbirth is childbirth and it is painful and exhausting whether the infant is alive or dead. So, that logic makes no sense to me. And like I said before, if a late-term infant is viable without being attached to the mother with an umbilical cord, then isn’t that the same as smothering the infant the minute it is born out of the mother’s womb?
Does anyone here have any information about when it would benefit the mother’s health to terminate the life of the fetus in the last trimester? What would be the circumstances and reasons why it would be dangerous for a woman to birth a live baby instead of a dead one?
2 June 2009, on 6:01 pm
Star:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6694695
2 June 2009, on 9:13 pm
Thanks KA, I do realize after reading your link that there are certain situations that arise where a decision must be made to terminate the pregnancy in the third trimester. Forcing a mother to continue with a pregnancy of a baby with no brain or a condition where it won’t live for more than a few weeks after being born, for instance would be very cruel to the mother, as well as to put the child through suffering when it is known it will inevitably die soon after birth or some other medical dilemma. Most likely, most women do not wait till the last trimester just to get rid of the pregnancy, but there are very legitimate reasons that I had not thought about till now…I knew of them but needed a reminder. Thanks.