The Greatest Story Ever Told – again and again and again
24 March 2009 by StardustChristianity is just a spin-off of many mythologies before it which were based on the movement of the sun. The sun worshipers were closer to the truth about what we should be giving credit to for our existence. The sun is what gives us life, we cannot live without the sun. Our world cannot survive without the sun. Our solar system cannot survive without the sun.
Throughout the ages, “sun” turned into “son” in various religions and humans assigned human representations for natural events. While some may exaggerate the connections between the similarities between Jesus and others, as Uruk said in a comment at my blog, “The similarities are there, nonetheless and really point to the idea that religion comes from the mind of humanity, and not from god(s) above.”
The following series points out the many astrological references in the Bible, as well as gives an overview of the ways various natural events have been into people’s superstitions and belief systems.
About the videos below:
This revealing documentary is part of the piece called Zeitgeist. This segment deals with the Ancient African origins of the Christ story based upon the story of Heru (Horus), Auset (Isis) and Ausar (Osiris). Even though the documentary says the story occurs around 3,000 B.C. It actually goes back to about 8,000 B.C.
This documentary shows in clear cut manner shows the similarities between Heru, the other crucified saviors and Jesus the Christ. It is all based on the journey of the Sun through out the 12 signs of the Zodiac. The Astro Theology has been put into literal form and taught as Theology. This is inaccurate.
A few of the similarities are between Heru and Jesus are:
1) The Virgin Birth
2) The Annuniciation
3) The Crucifixtion
4) Resurrection
5) 12 Disiciples
6) Birth on December 25th
7) Healing the sick
Raising the Dead
9) A Star in the East
10) Three Kings or Wise Men
11) Started teaching at age 12
12) Was dead for 3 days
Watch the videos HERE:
Part One
Part Two:
Part Three
Editor’s note: For all those fundamentalist skeptics out there, I and other mods here at GifS are not “endorsing” Zeitgeist. I merely used the videos to provoke discussion, which indeed they have, thus far.
24 March 2009, on 2:01 pm
The videos are quite good, very thorough & well researched.
Like facts ever convinced a True Believer.
24 March 2009, on 2:16 pm
Jaycubed, some of the comments by stupid Christians at YouTube illustrate what you say to be true. It’s funny when they accuse the video creator of making stuff up. LOL!
24 March 2009, on 2:24 pm
It’s not only stupid Christians who point out the many flaws in this doco. It was covered in the Skeptics Society newsletter back in February.
24 March 2009, on 2:33 pm
I tried to post a link but it didn’t work. Google “The Greatest Story Ever Garbled” to find the eSkeptic edition. Bottom line, the video creator did make stuff up.
The rest of the movie consists of paranoid conspiracy theory ravings, 9/11 was a inside job, income tax is unconstitutional etc, etc.
24 March 2009, on 2:53 pm
^ RE Peter’s reference to the Skeptic Magazine critique…
See this rebuttal by Acharya S [specifically, regarding the Sun Mythology portion of Zeitgeist]:
“Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST (and religious History) article”:
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/skeptic-zeitgeist.html
24 March 2009, on 3:07 pm
Thanks ChuckA, Looks like people cannot take Skeptic Magazine “on faith”. Great rebuttal by Acharya S!
24 March 2009, on 3:26 pm
Another link to Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:
24 March 2009, on 6:17 pm
Acharya S. weaves in interesting story, but I find much of her work to be highly speculative and not very academically rigorous. I took a comparative religion course in college, which basically qualifies me to write a compare and contrast essay on two random religions for a final, but I distinctly remember that basic mythical themes crossed cultures with little to no interaction. To claim a specific origin, like Acharya S does, reminds me of people find the image of Jesus in their English muffin.
24 March 2009, on 8:42 pm
Reminds me of the poem I wrote:
EATING THE SUN
When we sit down to eat a meal
It doesn’t seem like a very big deal
But when examined from a closer view
It’s more than, let say, apples and stew
When examined carefully the food we eat
Is the result of the Sun and can’t be beat
The photons from the Sun react with electrons
Quantum wise, bosons with fermions
And the energy released by these reactions
Is swiped by plants and other living contraptions
When we eat plant and animal matter
We eventually store the energy from our platter
This energy is stored in gigantic biological loops
And because of this we can swing a Hula Hoop
So when we sit down to eat a bun
Remember, be thankful, we’re eating the Sun
24 March 2009, on 11:37 pm
I distinctly remember that basic mythical themes crossed cultures with little to no interaction.
But when these basic mythical themes cross cultures and are interwoven into new stories, then that would be interaction, wouldn’t it? One mythology/religion borrows stuff from another religion to add to their stories, or they build new stories based on old themes from previous ones. IMO, that is considerable influence and interaction. Constantine is one example of purposeful interaction of mythology of the day with the new Christianity.
And in reading the hundreds upon hundreds of myths from various cultures, we can see basic mythical themes interwoven in newer myths through the ages, intentional or not. But there is indeed an interaction when tracing one mythology to the other.
Is it just simply coincidence then about religions who have the similarities of virgin birth, death, resurrection after three days, walking on water, 12 disciples and other characteristics as listed above? Or is it like the fundamentalist says “All those religions have those have the same things because it just shows that all those people knew that the christian religion was true!” (That’s how the fundies I know have explained it.)
24 March 2009, on 11:47 pm
Anthony, great poem!
Ramen!
25 March 2009, on 12:08 am
Todd:
24 March 2009, on 6:17 pm
Acharya S. weaves in interesting story, but I find much of her work to be highly speculative and not very academically rigorous.
I’m sorry, but it sounds like you haven’t read much of Acharya’s work at all. Taking a comparative religion course in college does not compare with what she’s done over the years. I think she proves herself in that Skeptic rebuttal alone, and I don’t believe you even read that.
It’s really dishonest to make derogatory comments about someone’s work you don’t know and on a subject you barely know as well, based on one college course. I highly suggest everyone here read Acharya’s latest book “Christ in Egypt” – or you won’t be able to discuss her work intelligently at all.
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html
You with the one college course, I challenge you to do a better job.
25 March 2009, on 12:17 am
All of those other myths have died yet here we are defending reason against all of the same old bullshit. I wonder what it is that locks people into this self delusion and fantasy?
The parallel myths was one of many things that got me completely out of religion and fully into the Agnostic moving toward atheist persuasion.
Anthony great poem.
25 March 2009, on 12:20 am
I’m going to take a sort of ‘Austin Cline’ tack here…RE Todd’s comment:
“Acharya S. weaves in interesting story, but I find much of her work to be highly speculative and not very academically rigorous.”
Can you site examples of her lack of academic rigor?
“I took a comparative religion course in college, which basically qualifies me to write a compare and contrast essay on two random religions for a final”
And that qualifies you exactlly how? What was your Major? Have you checked Acharya S’s rather extensive academic qualifications?
“To claim a specific origin, like Acharya S does, reminds me of people find(ing) the image of Jesus in their English muffin.”
Wow! I’d say that’s REALLY “a stretch” in criticism. To compare someone like Acharya S to ANYONE who would claim that, is, in my opinion, as ridiculously laughable as the “image content” of the analogy itself.
Personally, I’ve read a good deal of her work; and I come to a totally opposite conclusion. If you’ve ever studied, as well, some of Joseph Campbell’s groundbreaking work; you’d find that what Stardust alluded to about mythical themes has been quite thoroughly established.
It seems to me, it’s only the more stubbornly anchored believers in their favorite childhood indoctrinated myths who seem to resist any and all more scholarly “revelation” of their myth’s long entrenched…utter…and borrowed…falsehood.
“Nothing personal”, Todd; especially if you are, indeed, a fellow atheist.
25 March 2009, on 12:32 am
I agree Peter. I watched the entire movie. The Horus/Christ bit was good. They definitely lay it on heavy, and gloss over any of the arguments theists make against it. It was clearly atheist propaganda, but was truthful on the whole.
Then it got weird. First off, I have no idea how the second half can be considered to be part of the first half. Scant facts, wild allegations, leaped to conclusions…
Its another fine example of how a mind can be very skeptical in one faucet, but be blinded by pure belief in another. I have no idea how people can be so absolutely sure of something on so little evidence.
25 March 2009, on 1:19 am
Revyloution, what evidence do you have to disprove or contradict any of the allegations made in these videos? What do you find to be propaganda exactly, and why? What would be your conclusions of the reasons for the uncanny similarities between certain myths and religions, especially the “sun god” religions vs Christianity?
Seems like we have people here offering vague criticisms without any evidence or resources presented. “Blinded by pure belief”? So, university comparative religion and mythology courses are simply “pure belief”? The comparison of established religions over thousands of years, and finding differences and similarities is only blind faith? Examining the evidence, ancient texts such as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Bible and history of different cultures and their beliefs is just “blind faith”? I am sure that many scholars and university professors would disagree with that and ask why you would say such a thing, and ask you to back up your statements with some resources.
I’m sorry, but it sounds like you haven’t read much of Acharya’s work at all. Taking a comparative religion course in college does not compare with what she’s done over the years. I think she proves herself in that Skeptic rebuttal alone, and I don’t believe you even read that.
Charles Olsen, I am in agreement with you, as would be most people who have read Acharya’s works. Taking one comparative religion course in a college does not come anywhere near her work and research.
25 March 2009, on 2:16 am
RE the other content of the “Zeitgeist” video…
I too don’t “buy into” the conspiricy; but I DO keep an open mind. It’s obvious, as in, for example, the JFK conspiracy theory, that there’ll never be sufficient evidence…or more to the point…further investigation regarding the claims. [There was, however, a very interesting guy on C-Span last year RE that.]
Similar to the current resistance to prosecuting members of the Bush Administration (Cheney, et. al.) for all the shenanigans like torture & the Constiution, etc., it’s even WAY more unlikely for any investigation into even more insidious and complicated 9/11 shtick.
I must say, I’ve never seen people get as outraged at even the SUGGESTION of such US government involvement in a conspiratorial plot. I remember, for one, Bill Clinton completely “blowing his stack” at an audience member suggesting such. And you might have noticed how the media completely ignored the annoyingly insistent 9/11 conspiracy demonstrators in various backgroud crowds during the 2008 election.
Similarly for the banking conspiracy…especially now…too old and complicated…too many possible fingers in the pie…tons of extremely rich and long entrenced high profile power figures…yada, yada.
As to the 9/11 shtick, it would take some VERY credible, high level participant(s) to “out” the whole conspiracy.
Again…”Ain’t gonna happen!”; and take that one, I’d say…to the nth power.
I, personally (and even somewhat reluctantly), leave all that shtick in the “possibly forever…Unknown Realm”!
Similar, perhaps to the very old, personal…
“Why the fuck was I ever born!”…could it be a conspiracy for some karmic punishment?
[Wait!...I DO know that two people (one; a Catholic female)...not using a condom, and fucking around...at least ONCE...had something to do with it. But...there's no evidential video to prove it...Hmmm!]
25 March 2009, on 10:53 am
How many languages other than English does that work in? Not that I have any problem with the general idea, but I’m a little sceptical of the universal applicability of this particular phonetic correspondence. For example, I believe the Latin for “sun” is “sol solis”, while “son” is “filius” (although I stand to be corrected, my Latin is non-existent). No resemblance there…
25 March 2009, on 11:51 am
^ Dunc?…
I think this…apparently somewhat new, additional rebuttal series of videos…MIGHT hold the answer to that common skeptical criticism of the Zeitgeist thesis…
“Zeitgeist Debunked? Don’t Make Me Laugh! (Part 1)”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72FMrK7985c&feature=related
[So far, there seem to be 4 available parts in this particular series. Just follow the right page column for the other consecutive parts. (D'uh?)]
25 March 2009, on 12:29 pm
Joseph Campbell had a lot to say on this subject. He’ been dead for twenty years, but his work is as relevant today as it was when he did his PBS series with Bill Moyers.
25 March 2009, on 12:39 pm
60613, The PBS series with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers is excellent.
25 March 2009, on 12:46 pm
We did a post here some time ago Examining the Flood Myths and how there are similarities between the many flood stories throughout time. This examination presented in the video simply points out how some aspects of mythologies are repeated again and again throughout the ages. One culture steals bits and pieces from other cultures. I think people who are strong skeptics here are missing the point being made. No one is saying this definitely is how Christianity came to be, but upon examination of the Bible alongside other ancient religious texts and mythological stories, there is strong evidence to say that much of Christianity was adopted from some other myths. While some similarities are simply coincidental, all it takes is some studying and examination to see how these religions all “evolved” over time.
25 March 2009, on 12:51 pm
Joseph Campbell did have a lot to say on the subject, but a lot of it was based on now-discredited ideas from Freudian psycho-analysis. Much of Hero with a Thousand Faces seems to me to be secondary rationalisation – including the chapter on secondary rationalisations. And a great deal of it of it is based on late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century anthropology, much of which falls far short of modern standards of scholarship. I don’t believe for an instant that the semiotics of mythology and dreams are genetically (or even epigenetically) pre-programmed. I tend towards the view that mythological symbols hold the meaning that they do because of their role in culture, rather than the reverse as Campbell appears to argue (in Hero, anyway – I still want to read more of his work, but the obvious flaws in Hero have dented my enthusiasm somewhat).
Chuck – I’ll try and remember to have a look at that when I’m not at work.
25 March 2009, on 1:15 pm
I’m very disappointed. I’ve had this webpage on my blogroll for years now and because of this one post I now have to remove it. I hope you understand it is nothing personal but I cannot afford to be seen as promoting tin-foil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-pseudoscience such as this garbage. The other topics covered in Zeitgeist concerning the FED, Income tax laws and the 9/11 Conspiracy theories are classic neonazi propaganda and have no place in a reasoned discussion of any kind. You have done a grave disservice to the secular movement by posting this as secular activism will now be afilliated with Coast-to-Coast-AM crap about lizzard aliens secretly ruling the planet. And before you go accusing me of exaggerating the harm that you have done tell me if you don’t recognize the voice in this 2006 web-video about how Reptilians from Planet-X created humans as a slave race and secretly rule the world through Bohemian Grove or whatever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTcF-7opGLU
It’s a disgrace.
25 March 2009, on 1:26 pm
skepticat, you have greatly disappointed me by misjudging us and jumping to conclusions that we are endorsing anything. We present topics for discussion, and this topic seems to have stirred up a lot of thought and good comments from various viewpoints. Your reaction is rather, well strange and extreme.
I AM NOT ENDORSING ANYTHING. IT’S ONLY DISCUSSION. gEEZE…lighten up.
We are not discussing the other topics at the moment, we are discussing the sun god similarities. FED, 9/11 conspiracies etc are not presented in this post, unless I overlooked something when watching the videos.
I do not think that this discussion has done any disservice at all to the “secular movement” (that statement sounds like paranoia in itself) and we are a pretty rational bunch here. There are several of us moderators who express our own opinions and interests. I am only one team member of more than a dozen. To judge the group because of one article is well…close-minded and judgmental and unfair. But you aren’t the first to remove us from a blogroll. We have been removed in the past by passive atheists who hate our “angry atheist” style, far-left-leaning political viewpoints, and a number of other reasons. If you like us you stay, if not you are free to go. Removing us from your blogroll because of one post doesn’t make sense. You have had not to be liking us for other reasons, as well. (I also see you don’t get much comment at your blog…practically zilch..)
As for Reptilians from Planet X…we have done our fair share here of mocking such absurdity. At the moment, we are discussing mythology and one mythology’s influence on another.
25 March 2009, on 2:50 pm
And a great deal of it of it is based on late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century anthropology, much of which falls far short of modern standards of scholarship.
Dunc, perhaps you can recommend some modern scholars of anthropology who write on the subject? I would be interested in what they have to say.
25 March 2009, on 2:50 pm
I was listening to a conspiracy radio show (as I do, for story ideas) and the host’s objection to Zeitgeist, or at least the first part, had nothing to do with any kind of factual inaccuracies, or whatever. Oh no. This was his objection:
The New World Order wants you to be atheistic.
That is all.
I stopped listening.
25 March 2009, on 3:42 pm
Wow – what one misses when one is plunged neck-deep in work…
I see a few things about the videos and the ensuing discussion, but I can’t comment in depth at the moment, so I’ll come back as soon as I can.
What I can do right now is join Star in her answer to skepticat, whose reaction seems strange and extreme to me as well. If you’re going to engage in secular activism by cutting yourself off from fellow skeptics and secularists every time they reference something you disagree with, whatever the bases of your disagreement, then you’re going to find yourself abandoned in an echoing void pretty soon.
If there’s one thing that disappoints me, it’s anyone trying to remain “pure” somehow in any human arena, let alone the sphere of activism. Heck, I’m a grammar/spelling/fact-checking/accuracy pedant myself, but I’d be living on a deserted island if I cut out everyone around me who makes consistent grammatical/spelling/factual errors. Especially since, being only human myself, I make those mistakes myself sometimes.
Wouldn’t a more adult and productive reaction have been to voice your concerns that inclusion of scholarly (at least in general) analyses of religious syncretism (the videos) in an otherwise highly questionable vehicle (Zeitgeist) risks “poisoning” those analyses by association? Other people have done so above resulting in an interesting discussion that includes how much we should consider or take into account the rest of the movie in approaching the videos (for the record, it bothers me but I’m not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water; i.e., reject the videos and their ideas outright because of the overall vehicle).
Of course, we do still live in a free nation, so you’re perfectly entitled to limit your activism to that of the strict purist, and not associate with those of us willing to dig around for the occasional diamonds strewn among the clods of mud. But having once been where you seem to be, I can tell you it’s much more fun and ultimately productive to get your hands dirty once in a while.
25 March 2009, on 3:49 pm
Skepticat…
Personally , I’ve got great critical ears, partly from being an old Pro musician; and even after some 50 years playing in all kinds of musical aggregations (and even some aggravations!) my hearing range exceeds most of my friends, etc.
If you’re claiming that your linked video has the same narrator as Zeitgeist…
Bullshit! You might just need to clear the wax out of your ears.
Actually, I disagree completely with that particular “brand” of conspiracy theory crap…
those many “New World Order/Extra-terrestrial alien fascists/2012 Mayan calender” doomsday style fear mongering conspiracies.
Obviously…”All conspiracy theories are NOT created equal”; besides the fact that they ARE just theories, after all; often with absolutely no solid, credible evidence, whatsoever, to support their rather exrteme, totally bizarre claims.
Similar to what Stardust alluded to, we “GifSters”, in my opinion, are certainly not out to proselytize hardcore belief in any of the many topics we might discuss. We hate that in religions; why would we want to participate in that as atheists?
On the other hand, when something relates to the varied theme of this Blog…we’re free to “have at it”…sometimes just for pure fun.
Any perceived “evidence” presented is always open to honest criticism and discussion. Besides, as freethinkers with open minds, what’s more apropos than exploring interesting alternate ideas, we can all learn something in the process.
Nobody really gets hurt…and we move on…no strings attached…to other pastures.
25 March 2009, on 4:57 pm
It amuses me when Christians rant on about Christianity being ‘the greatest story ever told’, particularly when they are American Christians, for I love to remind them of that truly great American hero and Harvard prize-winning scholar, George Bethune English, and his terrific book, The Grounds of Christianity Examined (Boston, 1813), which rigorously exposes the fact that the New Testament is a complete fabrication from end to end.
As English said in his introduction:
Interestingly, English goes on to state:
Hardly surprising, really, for he was excommunicated for daring to expose the New Testament as a work of fiction – just imagine what would have happened to him had he said the same about the Old Testament.
For those without access to a good library, English’s work is available on Project Gutenberg, and also on the Open Library (here: http://openlibrary.org/details/groundsofchristi00engliala0. Enjoy.
25 March 2009, on 5:08 pm
^^ Not to mention more recent works, such as Earl Doherty’s (can’t find link now; will post later).
25 March 2009, on 5:26 pm
Guffaw!
In university faculties in the UK, and I have no doubt that the US is similar, anthropology is a classified as a ’social science’, which means that little, if any, of the methodology it employs merits the claim that it meets with the requirements of having employed genuine scientific rigour to arrive at the conclusions it presents.
Frankly, I have read more guff published by modern ethnologists than one can find in a copy of ‘Comic Cuts’. Nevertheless, Campbell’s scholarly work stand up with the best in the field and his theses have more supporters than detractors, IMHO.
25 March 2009, on 5:56 pm
Eve,
Was this the sort of link you were looking for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Doherty
(Sorry, I’ve competely forgotten how to embed links, something to do with , but then I am a geriatric and senile.
25 March 2009, on 5:58 pm
Oops, what’s gone wrong with my post above? That’s not supposed to be a link, I was questioning how to embed them, something to do with a href= etc. Sorry folks.
25 March 2009, on 6:09 pm
TOG, no problem. We all have our problems with linking sometimes. I took the second link out.
25 March 2009, on 6:32 pm
Thx, Star
25 March 2009, on 10:49 pm
I kinda like Acharya’s book title (which I think she had BEFORE Frank Rich used it for his “non-Jeebus” book). That’d be:
“The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever SOLD” (my caps)
What a “bill of goods”…correction…
“bill of BADS?”…the whole batch of re-cycled bullshit was, to foist on the totally ignorant, unsuspecting Ancient World. Matched, of course, only by the previous, similarly delusional, Jewish OT and followed up by pedophile Mohammered’s ultra-sick, viciously delusional horseshit.
Horseshit left, I guess, when he flew off on that magical “Pegasus”.
What!…no camel was available? Perhaps, only a one hump model was handy.
Somehow, the following (all too familiar) Python clip reminds me of two things:
1) The witch in the clip; as Acharya S probably would end up, in another time period.
2) The level of “logic” exercised by many religious folks; particularly Xtian Theologians.(?)
What!…See if you agree?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
And then, while I’m at it…RE independent thought by believers, there’s always this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA&feature=related
25 March 2009, on 10:56 pm
Stardust, when out walking on these sunny spring days I give a little bow to the Sun thanking it for my existence. George Carlin did a good routine about his religion being “Sun” worship. So funny!
Kersey Graves wrote a book entitled “The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors” many years ago. T.W. Doane’s book, “Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions” was published in 1882. While the similarities between Christianity and other myths do not guarantee “borrowing” went on, it does seem rather unlikely that the Christian myth sprung up without any influence at all from any of these other religions.
25 March 2009, on 11:27 pm
Lynda, thanks for the book suggestions. I will be heading over to my library tomorrow to see if they have a copy, or to see if I can get a copy ordered from an unbiased library someplace else. Our library has plenty of books on knitting, but fewer copies of anything of substance.
The past couple of days the Sun god has been angry with us and not shown himself but Aeolos instead has been throwing lightning bolts and torturing us with tornado warnings and powerful winds.
25 March 2009, on 11:37 pm
Just to defend myself, my major was Comp Sci, so I claim no expertise in comparative religion, which I thought I made clear. What I have read from Acharya S is what I found on her web site. It was quite persuasive in convincing me not to buy her book. Perhaps I misjudged her, but the fact that she hawks her wares on Art Bell’s show doesn’t exactly convince me that I’m missing out on some new ground breaking theory.
Now, if she could some how figure a way to tie her work into occult fascism and hang around with dubious individuals like Boyd Rice, I might take interest.
26 March 2009, on 8:20 am
Stardust – unfortunately, I’m not actually familiar enough with the field to give recommendations.
Old Git – the problem I have with much of late-nineteenth / early-twentieth century anthropology is the implicit racial and cultural biases. Have you noticed that in Hero, Campbell does not ever consider the cultural, social, political, economic, or historical context of any of the myths he examines? He seems to regard “primitive” cultures as both monolithic and and entirely without history, at least until they were “discovered”. Regardless of what you think about the methodology of the social sciences, I would hope that we can all agree that completely ignoring all such subtleties of a culture you’re studying in favour of projecting your own cultural biases is not good scholarship. I spent the entire book screaming “What about the context!?”
I’m not saying he’s entirely wrong – I think he got a lot of things right, but usually for the wrong reasons. And his psycho-analytic exploratory framework is clearly bunk, unless you imagine that there’s a gene somewhere for (eg) symbolising adult sexuality as a snake.
26 March 2009, on 10:27 am
Just a thought for…another Thursday (or is it Thor’s day)?
It occasionally “hits” me, that…at least, according to our all too commonly held atheist view of the “Cosmic” situation…we humans randomly come into our brief glimpse of mortal existence, only to spend much of our obviously “unequal in every way” lives…fighting with each other. We’ll ALL, on this dinky little orb, most likely be gone from the scene…forever…in less than a paltry 100 “years”; as we humans count our totally made-up notion of time. And none of us knows exactly when our little individual ‘dance’ will be over.
So much for that great, much touted…and extremely over-rated…
“Gift of Life”?
On that note (Yeah…free ammunition for the hopelessly delusional?)…Ummm……
more caffeine might be in order?
And of course…
“Have a nice day!”
26 March 2009, on 12:06 pm
Todd, she’s also been on The Infidel Guy radio show a few times.
26 March 2009, on 3:56 pm
Dunc,
Believe me, you and I probably have more in common that that which separates us, but then to explore those avenues would end up taking over not only this thread, but probably the whole of GIFS. Suffice to say…
Your comment “Old Git – the problem I have with much of late-nineteenth / early-twentieth century anthropology is the implicit racial and cultural biases. Me too, but then I find the same criticisms are true of so much of the pap that is still being published and passed off as free from such biases, and not just in the ’social sciences’ either, so it is perhaps unfair to criticise Campbell for having committed errors which are still largely perpetrated by people half a century later who should know better but are actually giving only lip-service to the ideals which they claim to espouse.
As for your criticism: “And his psycho-analytic exploratory framework is clearly bunk, unless you imagine that there’s a gene somewhere for (eg) symbolising adult sexuality as a snake.” Agreed, but if you are really interested in reading psycho-analytical bunk, dip into the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders some time. And that Delphic tome is published by the APA and passed of as ‘based on rigorous scientific research’ – excuse me whilst I have an apoplexy – and is credited by many in authority as having as much credibility, if not more, than that other book of make-believe, the Bible!
Frankly, if one is going to be hyper-critical, the majority of published academic papers would be consigned directly into a huge paper-shredder. Better still if they had not been written in the first place, but then what would their poor authors do to pass the time – an issue which many feel is probably one of the most important problems faced by human beings (how else can one explain the almost universal and ubiquitous use of cell-phones by morons who have nothing to say to each other than: “I’m walking round the Mall right now, what are you doing?”).
BTW, my answer to THAT question is: “I’m writing another worthless dissertation!”
26 March 2009, on 4:07 pm
@Dunc re: Joseph Campbell.
I don’t know enough about the subject to know whether or not Campbell’s anthropology is correct or incorrect, nor if it has been challenged or re-read / written by the neo-deconstructionists. All I’m saying is that Campbell revealed to me that the major mythological themes are embedded in many past cultures.
As for the general discussion, it’s certainly true that the so-called christian religions, as they developed and were spread throughout the Roman Empire, co-opted local religious practices to make the “new” religion more palatable, as it were, to the locals.
I guess the only mythology which has not been wholly contaminated by contact with other cultures is the Australian aboriginal mythology which may be a 30,000 year old oral tradition. But, I learned that from Campbell and, as you say, he might have been misinformed. (This would not, however, preclude my desire to visit Ayres Rock!)
(Parenthetically, I’ve always wondered how the local practices (such as the astrological determination of the date of easter sunday, or the “official” date of Christ’s birth) became incorporated into the bedrock of the Roman See’s dogma. It would be a fascinating subject for someone’s Ph.D.)
Finally, I have this truly ignorant wish that we’ll all wind up some day in a Roddenberry-esque utopia. But that would necessitate the death of religion, and that will never happen… we humans are collectively too weak and soft-minded to let that happen, alas. I think we shall always cling to our similar mythologies.
26 March 2009, on 5:24 pm
This part of the video is summed up:
Does anyone care to dispute that? In most of the criticisms I have read over the past couple of days, skeptics and reporters tend to skip over the first part on religion and zero in on the second two parts, and thus disregarding the facts that most of us know already in the first part concerning the influence of mythology and astrology on the Bible.
26 March 2009, on 6:50 pm
I can recommend “The Pagan Christ” by Tom Harpur. While it is largley based on the work of Dr. Alvin Boyd Kuhn, it is much easier to find and a lot easier to read. It is also interesting since Harpur basically guts Christianity yet, incredibly, still wants to beieve in Jesus.
Also “The Jesus Mysteries” by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy examines the similarities between Greek and Roman Mystery Religi0ns. If after reading these you still think Christianity is original, there is no hope.
26 March 2009, on 9:22 pm
Obeah, thanks for those two book recommendations. It’s amazing to me in this whole discussion that some skeptics seem to be exactly like Christians in their defense of a religion that is obviously pieced together with bits of leftover remnants of other mythologies and beliefs. Maybe my video choice was not a good one to use, but I thought people would understand the point of it, considering what we know about other mythologies of that area which came before Christianity. In my post I have not mentioned government conspiracy theories, Reptilian aliens, etc. etc. I think maybe a better video to go with the post to talk about similarities, as pointed out by Naomi who emailed me earlier today would have been The God Who Wasn’t There. I have used that video example before.
27 March 2009, on 5:08 am
Star,
Don’t be too harsh on yourself. The video choice is actually irrelevant since the message it portrays is essentially true and anyone who is not blinded by the psychological need to believe that any particular religion is completely genuine and unique development of some kind is either being disingenuous or displaying their ignorance.
27 March 2009, on 6:07 am
Not wanting to derail the entire thread, but nonetheless…
His errors are perfectly understandable given the context in which he was working, and you’re quite right that a lot of it still goes on. I don’t see how that means we should turn a blind eye though – we learn by identifying the mistakes of the past. The fact that we don’t learn well enough or quickly enough doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. Progress is incremental, and mistakes are an essential part of it.
All cultures are part of a continuous oral tradition of over 100,000 years. There has never been a society which completely re-invented its mythology from scratch, without any reference to the culture of their parents. We all share a degree of common cultural inheritance, just as surely as we share common biological inheritance. In my view, the “hero’s quest” is simply a highly elaborated descendant of the survival stories told by the very first humans ever to tell stories – the rains fail, the game disappears, a scout journeys beyond the traditional tribal boundaries searching for new resources, guided by observing the behaviour of other animals. It resonates psychologically because it’s been a part of our culture for as long as we’ve had culture. It’s part of the foundations of all culture.
I’m not slating Campbell – he did some very good work, and I do intend to read a lot more of it in future. I’m just saying that we should be aware of his imperfections, and read him critically.
Sorry for side-tracking, everybody. Carry on.
27 March 2009, on 9:29 am
I think Campbell strongly suggested that we are, perhaps, in dire need of a whole NEW mythology…a new “Software”, as I think he put it…based on our hard won, modern Scientific “view” of the Universe. All our current mythologies (religions) are based on a Bronze Age, totally non-scientific, much more superstitious, and obviously limited notion of the our place in the Cosmos.
OT…Did anyone else catch ABC “Nightline” last night…IMHO, a totally ridiculous debate on whether Satan exists, or not?
To give some indication of the level of debate…the most “rational” person on the debating panel was Deepak Chopra. In other words, right off the bat, everyone on the panel was a believer in some kind of god.
Me thinks…somebody like Christopher Hitchens was desperately needed in the rather stupid fiasco.
There’s supposed to be more of the original content online than was actually shown during the broadcast.
Check it out?:
http://abcnews.go.com/NIGHTLINE
To use a word…”unbelievable”!
27 March 2009, on 11:35 am
Don’t be too harsh on yourself. The video choice is actually irrelevant since the message it portrays is essentially true and anyone who is not blinded by the psychological need to believe that any particular religion is completely genuine and unique development of some kind is either being disingenuous or displaying their ignorance.
Thanks TOG. That’s what I was focused on, the message of these particular clips because I had studied about the influence of one mythology/religion on another through the ages and the way this is presented is very clear. Just as most languages have been influence by other languages, that is how religions are also, and customs, traditions, music, art….one culture that comes into contact with another has some sort of influence. Unless a group is totally isolated from everyone else, it cannot be helped.
27 March 2009, on 11:38 am
Dunc said:“In my view, the “hero’s quest” is simply a highly elaborated descendant of the survival stories told by the very first humans ever to tell stories.
It is true that myths and stories have a common aetiology. The reason being that myths are the essence of storytelling and the means whereby mankind’s attempts to understand and explain human nature and the world he found himself in the vehicle whereby that information was passed on to others and down the generations. However, myths were never meant to be taken literally, as they were largely symbolic and not literal representations of either human nature or the world around us, and I believe that Campbell was of that opinion too. Incidentally, there has been much study of Campbell’s work in screenwriting circles, since screenwriters are intimately involved in the art of storytelling, an art which is as old as that of developed language itself. (see for example the work of Keith Cunningham, a distinguished screenwriter, pedagogue, and one-time confidant of Campbell for one of the more insightful studies of Campbell’s work in this respect).
27 March 2009, on 3:57 pm
Sorry, folks, re above post, meant to include a link re Keith Cunningham, and simply Googling his name produces a lot of false hits, so here’s a link,/a> to some background info supplied by his agent. Cunningham’s book’s worth a read too.
27 March 2009, on 4:01 pm
Oops, sorry folks, my HTML’s gone wrong again, this is the corrected the link I meant. Perhaps some kind Mod would be prepared to correct above post and remove this one? Incidentally, it was the words ‘a link’ in the above which was supposed to be live, so the comma following those words should be a ‘<’.
Bet I’ve now confused everyone. In which case, welcome to geriatrica, lol.
27 March 2009, on 4:12 pm
Thanks for the link, TOG. I figured it out.
28 March 2009, on 2:48 pm
^^Ah, but Stardust, my dear, you haven’t reached the plateau of geriatrica yet (fortunately), as that’s reserved for oldies like Chuck and me.
28 March 2009, on 11:27 pm
^ Hmmm…TOG…
“geriatrica”…as in Geriatrics?
Somehow I hadn’t given much thought to that word. [Gee, I wonder why?] But, now that you’ve reminded me of my membership…
I’m wondering if an implied pseudo-scientific origin of the word isn’t concealing something rather sneaky. See if you agree with my geriatric “analysis”…?
Breaking down the literal “appearance” of the word Geriatrics:
Geri-at-trics…could easily, and even literally, become…”Geri at tricks”. In other woids…some devious Scientist was at work dreaming up ways to plague us poor, defenseless seniors with all manner of ridiculous old age “challenges”.
Like…fr’nstance…getting into the obvious silliness that I’m going on about, right now, in this lame-ass little OT comment.
NO?
29 March 2009, on 4:51 am
See if you agree with my geriatric “analysis”…?
Chuck, I can neither agree nor disagree, for I can’t remember what you were saying!
29 March 2009, on 6:02 pm
I would welcome thoughts on the book you mention — “The Grounds of Christianity Examined” by George Bethune English.
Do you find it has been influential? Do you think it is readable? Do you think its arguments hold sway and are effective?
31 March 2009, on 1:29 pm
Here’s, I think, an interesting “twist” to the whole “Fundie vs. Sun-Mythology” shtick. Basically it’s about some Fundies recognizing the Pagan/Jeebus link; but still hanging on to ever dwindling substance RE the whole Xtian delusion.
Anyone, indeed, who’s visited the Site called “Fundies say the darndest things” knows that…no matter what…die-hard believers will cling to all manner of insanely anti-Scientific, totally made-up & ridiculously distorted…”ultra-wacko reality”. The fear of letting go, I’d say, is quite amazing!
I got this update alert from Acharya’s newsletter, by the way…
Check out the first section of the page:
[Saturday, March 28, 2009 Christian Apologist: "ZEITGEIST is Right"]:
http://tbknews.blogspot.com/
31 March 2009, on 2:44 pm
I would welcome thoughts on the book you mention — “The Grounds of Christianity Examined” by George Bethune English.
Do you find it has been influential? Do you think it is readable? Do you think its arguments hold sway and are effective?
It was influential enough to get him excommunicated.
It is immensely readable, but then I do enjoy a well-turned phrase.
His arguments, insofar as they go, are soundly based, well-reasoned and logical.
He certainly influenced a number of people in his day, many of whom were considered to be important – or should that be self-important?
But, hey, instead of asking me for my thoughts on the work, why don’t you read it for yourself and make up your own mind – you can find it on either of the two links I posted earlier.
3 April 2009, on 12:48 pm
Indeed, I’ve seen Zeitgeist as well as What Would Jesus Do, etc. I always need ammunition with my battles with Christian fundies.
But Zeitgeist is right, myth after myth after myth.