Stand Fast, Stay Strong
22 February 2009 by BobIn the spirit of the recent BUS SCANDALS…
All this leads me to wonder about the future for student atheists. Most of my life I have enjoyed what you might call laissez-faire atheism – just not believing in God, thinking that people who do are daft, and leaving them to it. It seemed that ignoring religion was much the best way of letting it fade quietly away. Sadly I think the days of laissez-faire atheism are over, and young, thoughtful, student atheists are in a tricky position. Christianity and Islam seem ever more at odds with each other. Islamic groups claim to have the right not be offended. Some even demand to have their repulsively repressive and unfair Sharia laws respected here. So we need students who care about freedom of speech, freedom of thought, intellectual honesty, open inquiry, or sexual equality to speak up. But what is going to happen when they get clobbered? Few unbelievers are natural extremists or looking for a fight, but now they are being forced, by events occurring all over the world, to stand up for their unbelief. And if the events at Warwick and Leeds are anything to go by they are going to suffer abuse, threats and even harm. Will they – should they – fight back, or should they turn the other cheek? It’s one thing to be brave because you believe that one day God will send you to heaven, and rather different to suffer because you don’t believe in any God. And the last thing we need is another warring faction in the rotten war of ideas caused by religious differences. [...] We need people who don’t believe in God to show that you can be moral and good without religion, and to criticise the worse excesses of religious repression and dogma. I hope they won’t suffer more abuse but if they do I trust that their natural moral principles, not derived from any God or from any ancient book, will help them behave better than their God-fearing persecutors.
I mean, christ, if you can’t speak up on a goddam college campus, then we’re really screwed.
22 February 2009, on 7:03 pm
Bob
How about we get a campaign going that says; Keep your Sharia laws off of my freedoms. Would they try to kill us or would they just leave the contry? LOL
By our rights to freedom then all of the dominionist religions must accept that they are not going to get my freedoms from me. Does it ever occur to anyone that the Religious are really terrified of their own rhetoric?
22 February 2009, on 11:47 pm
One of the things I liked about atheism was the lack of “witnessing” required. There was no belief I needed to convert others too. Basically I just want to be left alone. No interference and I’m happy. If some idiots want to believe the most ridiculous delusional teachings I say fine, just don’t make laws that affect my life based on their delusional ideals.
What are these students to do? If they are worried about their safety because they have fundamentalist jerks hanging around I’d say to keep their ideas about god under wraps. Heck I’d rather see them feign prayer during an event than suffer physical abuse. To me the ideals of freedom of speech aren’t worth losing your life over. We only get one and we need to protect it.
But then I think if we let them take one right away perhaps they’ll take another and another until life is so miserable it ain’t worth living. And I need to think about what kind of society my daughter and her children will have to live in as well. This makes it even more complicated. How much of my life do I give up fighting for their lives to be happy?
What to do? The answer does not come easy.
22 February 2009, on 11:56 pm
BTW, some update on the bus scandals. I wrote all the Ottawa city councilors about denying approval for the bus ads in Ottawa. Six of the twelve have responded, but only two of them said how they planned on voting on the issue at the councilors’ meeting in March. One of them was definitely on the side of the transit company and supported NOT allowing the ads because it was already established that some people found them offensive (apparently there had been a letter sent to the transit company by one resident). Another one identified herself as religious, but stated that she supported allowing the ads to run and was planning on voting to allow them. She said with all the media attention the ads were getting anyway the city may as well get some money out of deal.
23 February 2009, on 3:16 am
Apropos of very little, I think that “Sharia Law” would be a good name for a drag queen.
23 February 2009, on 11:47 am
I was on a flight yesterday with a friend who grew up in Taiwan and is spiritual in Buddhist ways but not actually religious. He was asking me questions about Christian theology because a friend of his is gay yet Christian (his family has disowned him and he’s trying to “cure” his gayness). I was explaining to him the concepts of Christianity and he got quiet and asked, “How do educated people believe this stuff?” I didn’t really have an answer for that other than indoctrination and faith.
I know this doesn’t have much to do wit the topic of the thread, but it once again pointed out that religion is a brainwashing. That, and anyone who reads the entire Bible (or half of it… or the Koran for that matter) and still believes it as fact is working with the critical thinking skills of a toddler.
23 February 2009, on 12:07 pm
Lynda,
It’s better to die standing than to live on your knees.
The unpleasant reality that we cannot afford to ignore is that a few groups of people are going around committing terrible atrocities in the name of a massive LIE. Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims can’t all be right at the same time — so at least three, and most probably all four, out of those groups are just flat-out wrong.
Religious moderates — the ones who leave their faith at the door of the church on the way out — are every bit as bad as the fundamentalists to whom they lend undeserved credence. If they can survive for 363 days of the year without mentioning God, then they can surely manage the other two?
We must fight against actions perpetrated in the name of lies. In a court of law, there exists a requirement for a certain standard of evidence, admitting no room for a reasonable person to have doubts. In the court of scientific experiment, there is a requirement for an even higher standard of evidence, admitting no counterexample, however improbable. It is only reasonable that the religious should be silenced until they can produce so much as a single shred of evidence for their beliefs.
It is inevitable that we will cause some offence, for theists are by definition professional offendees. We must instead recognise that some people just deserve to be offended. One theist is too many, and no measure can be considered too extreme where a lesser measure has already failed.
23 February 2009, on 1:20 pm
Next time, just say “indoctrination” and leave it at that. I never say “faith,” simply because it tries to portray a positive image, when in fact it’s just the consequences of indoctrination. That was that cool point from Hume: it’s not that faith is something one needs in addition to reason, but something that actively rejects reason.
When faith is used in the former-additional-bullshit sense, they make it sound as if you’ve been “walking on land” for a while, and now that you’ve “come to the shore” you have to change gears and “take a boat” to get to where they are.
But the reality is: you’re playing chess with them, about to checkmate them, and they just take both hands and whip the board up in the air and knock all the pieces everywhere. And then they look at you and say, “Ha! You didn’t checkmate me.” And you’re, like, “Well, duh, of course not — but we’re playing chess, and that move ruins the game, you idiot.”
23 February 2009, on 11:47 pm
AJS,
It’s better to die standing than to live on your knees. A quote from Mexican Revolutionary Emiliano Zapata, correct?
Frankly, I think this type of thinking is ridiculous. LIFE is everything. I will take living on my knees over dying on my feet any day of the week. There is no humiliation too great that I would prefer death over it.
Also, I strongly disagree with your statement: “One theist is too many, and no measure can be considered too extreme where a lesser measure has already failed. Are you seriously suggesting that NO measure is too extreme? Not even murder? This I find very disturbing thinking. I know quite a few theists and there isn’t one of them that I would deny friendship to just because they are unable to think more rationally.
We must make a distinction between protecting our “rights” and protecting our “lives”. They are not necessarily one and the same. If I have to make a choice between the two I will always choose life over rights, especially since the universe doesn’t guarantee anything, least of all “rights”.
24 February 2009, on 2:18 am
lynda
Agreed. I have issuesWith this as well.
I have been helped by a theist most recently and she may have in fact Saved my life.
Life is everytyhing. How can it not be?
Most of my friends are theists. Yet they still respect my take on reality .
We must make a distinction between praticing our rights and practicving our lives
I don’t know any other way of bringing this up for your purusal.
24 February 2009, on 3:00 am
I’m gonna have to agree more with AJS on the “die standing/live on knees” here. If standing up for myself is also standing up for other people (in this case, all the other atheists who would have to put up with the religious folk even after I die), I’d definitely take a stand. Someone’s got to sometime, or else we’ll all have to live quietly, perhaps in fear of what could happen if we were found out. Maybe it’s just that I can’t stand injustice, or maybe I’m a bit too outspoken, but I definitely couldn’t live that way. But it’s a choice between what’s good for you and what’s good for others… It’s a tricky choice to make sometimes. It’s totally understandable if you’re not the type of person to sacrifice yourself for a cause. It makes sense for you, so feel free to live. Not everyone should have to be a martyr, anyway. Just saying that personally, I would take a stand, and it isn’t stupid to want to- Imagine where we’d be if nobody ever took a stand on civil rights issues, if nobody ever took that first punch or bullet. We sure as hell wouldn’t have as many freedoms as we enjoy today.
Well, that’s my two cents on that topic.
24 February 2009, on 12:37 pm
Bob,
Thanks for the chess analogy. Fortunately, the person I was speaking with saw “faith” in the same way you described. “Faith” in the idea that there is one God who had a son and a spirit – who are both God too, and had a Lamb of God in David (and Joseph Smith and David Koresh) that are divinely inspired by God to do His deeds but aren’t God… and who has angels who are sorta-god-like but not God… and not human… but still have god-like powers… And has an arch enemy in the Devil – that He created but can’t control and is weaker than… but will ultimately defeat in some war with the help of the angels and the Lamb of God and the 144,000 chosen ones of humanity to defend Him against evil… that He created… because it was all written in a book…
Yeah, he saw “faith” as someone mentally pointing at the sky yelling “Oh my God!” then dumping the chess pieces on the floor while your eyes are diverted and claiming victory.
24 February 2009, on 12:42 pm
Kate,
I understand the ambiguity. In my original comment I wrote: But then I think if we let them take one right away perhaps they’ll take another and another until life is so miserable it ain’t worth living. And I need to think about what kind of society my daughter and her children will have to live in as well. This makes it even more complicated. How much of my life do I give up fighting for their lives to be happy?
When we believe we only get one life and we have no guarantees that our death for a cause will result in any benefit to whomever will remain, it doesn’t seem clear that it’s worth it to make the sacrifice. Justice is a man-made concept so when I think about fighting injustice I have to ask myself, “What is just?” There is no “should be”.
All animals on earth try to survive. If survival requires fighting it makes sense. If the survival benefit is not clear, then the reason for fighting is not clear.
We don’t know what MIGHT have happened if history were different. We can speculate, but that is far from knowing for sure that“We sure as hell wouldn’t have as many freedoms as we enjoy today.” We might have enjoyed more freedoms today if humans had adopted a more diplomatic approach to solving conflicts over various rights. We just don’t know. Perhaps the willingness to die for so-called rights or principles has only succeeded in depleting the gene pool of rational thinkers.
24 February 2009, on 12:43 pm
I have to stand. I have two artificial knees.
24 February 2009, on 1:57 pm
As the only person here who actually is an atheist college student, who is actively involved in a non-theist student organization that holds many events dedicated to being vocal about the separation of church and state, freedom of religion, critical thinking, etc. I think I’m in a unique position to offer some insight here.
I attend a fairly conservative college campus in northern Indiana. Our group has had our event fliers ripped down almost faster than we can put them up, we’ve received hate mail, had people take our pamphlets from us and rip them up in front of us and throw them on the ground… But we persist. Because we MUST. I can’t stress that strongly enough. If we allow ourselves to be intimidated and shouldered out like every other atheist group before us that tried to form on our campus, we’ve accomplished nothing. Merely by being active and vocal about our beliefs, we’re establishing ourselves as part of the student population, a voice to be heard. We make it known that we exist, and we’re not going anywhere. And along the way, we might even cause a few people to rethink some things.
Anyway, that’s my take on it.
24 February 2009, on 3:02 pm
Julie, welcome! And please be aware that you and your organization are doing the right thing.
How inspirational! Well done, and stand fast.
24 February 2009, on 11:22 pm
Julie, I applaud your courage and hope your atheist group will thrive and grow. College campuses, of all places, should be safe for free-thinkers to congregate and associate freely.
I am concerned that you are receiving hate mail and hope you will be safe. When I was younger I made stands for what I believed in and suffered some unpleasant consequences. I’m not sure now that it was worth the effort. Please be safe. Protect yourself. Your LIFE is more important than anything else.
24 February 2009, on 11:39 pm
Yes…Julie…to echo Bob…Welcome; and “Brava!”
Lots of great comments.
^^Lynda: “We might have enjoyed more freedoms today if humans had adopted a more diplomatic approach to solving conflicts over various rights. We just don’t know. Perhaps the willingness to die for so-called rights or principles has only succeeded in depleting the gene pool of rational thinkers.”
Yes, how many critical, more rational thinkers were silenced through the ages by all manner of tyrants; be they religious or otherwise.
“Give me Liberty, or give me death!” may be, for many, a bit extreme; but who of us really wants to survive without freedom…or to pass on a world of slavishness to tyrannical religious ideas to future generations.
Perhaps this Century is the “critical moment” in Mankind’s history. Wake up…stop the madness…and survive…or reap the inevitable consequences of setting in motion the backlash of Nature’s destructive power. If we’ve learned anything from our hard won Modern Science, ladies and jellybeans, we’re right on the brink of the possible complete destruction of the human race…not from any gods, of course…but from our stubborn, ignorant, stupid, warmongering selves.
Of course; in spite of all our efforts…there’s always those darn, persistent, sneaky, pesky little outer space party spoilers…
asteroids!…?
25 February 2009, on 4:00 am
Julie,
Thanks for sharing. Stay strong.
Here’s a fun response to Christian bullying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3zgblmCAO0
25 February 2009, on 2:40 pm
ChuckA,
Patrick Henry’s speech is available online ( http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html ) and gives the context in which he pledged, “Give me liberty or give me death!” Considering some of the other things he says in the speech I would question the rational basis for making such a statement. One of the ideas he uses to prop up his final declaration is this: Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.
When Patrick Henry made this speech he was specifically talking about freedom from British rule. As a Canadian who enjoys living under a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that stands up very well against the US Constitutional guarantees, I see that those freedoms were within reach while still under British rule. So the need to lay down one’s life in the struggle has not been established.
We take for granted that liberty is a preferred state of existence. Why? There may be instances when liberty is not in one’s best interest. A child with limited understanding of the dangers that exist in the wild is better off with less liberty, as any watchful parent will understand. A person with Alzheimers needs to have locked doors to prevent wandering into oblivion.
I enjoy having freedom of speech. It’s great for advancing ideas and truth, but it also advances idiocy and lies. Is it really worth dying over? I don’t think anyone has established that it is.
25 February 2009, on 5:34 pm
I’ll admit to being mainly a laissez-faire Atheist, and would only join a cause if I perceived my *own* interests directly threatened. I also let my theist friends express their silly beliefs without comment (they can’t see me roll my eyes over the Internet). Some of the things they say do piss me off, and I may rant about it anonymously elsewhere online, or in the company of fellow atheists. If Muslim student organizations want to live by Sharia law for themselves, fine…if they want to impose it on everyone else, they should be told to “get bent”.
Lynda mentioned in passing:
“…Charter of Rights and Freedoms that stands up very well* against the US Constitutional guarantees,”
*except for the 2nd Amendment. Canadian Gun control laws suck, which is why I send $$ to the National Firearms Association of Canada (www.nfa.ca) and get their magazine, even though I live in Texas.
It’s appallingly difficult to obtain a concealed carry permit in Canada, and don’t even get me started on your National firearms registry farce.
I am a Left-winger, actually, and I deeply admire (and feel envious of) Canada’s single-payer health care system, but I take human self-defense rights very seriously.
Me, I always like the lines from Serenity:
The Operative: “Is that something you’re willing to die for?”
Mal: “Yes”
(catches the Operative off guard and fights him off)
“…though that ain’t exactly Plan A”
25 February 2009, on 6:29 pm
Very thoughtful article at Humanism Today by Sherwin Twine entitled: Humanism and Freedom
http://www.humanismtoday.org/vol4/wine.pdf
26 February 2009, on 1:39 am
Actually, Lynda, I was just randomly borrowing old Patrick Henry’s famous words; not really analogizing them to any particular patriotic agenda. To be honest (and with tongue firmly in cheek), my only truly unambiguous reason for choosing death would be some state of intolerable physical pain…from some unforeseen accident, or some, unalterable, painful, terminal disease.
26 February 2009, on 11:31 am
JJR: If you’re going to quote Whedon, do it right. Mal technically shoots him in the chest multiple times during that exchange.
26 February 2009, on 10:58 pm
Julie
Kudos to you and your mates on your activism. Just be cautious about your goings and be aware that all of these christers are taught that they are in the right and may cause you violence. I hope you never need to address that issue. Just remember that when vioilence is the answer, it is the only answer. Get training if you need it or at least keep yourself in good numbers of folks to resist the thugs when needed.
27 February 2009, on 12:22 am
JJR,
Yes, the gun registry is a ridiculous waste of tax payers money! However, one can buy a gun in Canada if one is wanted. It may be more difficult to obtain one than in the USA, but the requirements to firearms ownership here seem as legitimate as proving one can drive a car before getting a driver’s license. We haven’t been denied the “right” to own guns. However, there are very few occasions when human self-defense requires a gun. Living in an environment where a gun is not necessary is true freedom.
ChuckA,
I figured you were just borrowing those words from Patrick. The point I was attempting to make by referring to his whole speech is that this type of thinking about liberty might not be based on the most logical reasoning. It seems to be that the idea of giving up one’s life for idealistic points of view about rights and freedoms usually fits too well into religious thinking. This makes me seriously question its validity.
And I’ve thought about whether ending my life would be preferable over living in excruciating pain too. A few years ago I was miserably ill and felt like I would prefer to crawl under a tree, close my eyes and just sleep forever. But today I think, any consciousness is preferable to nothingness.
27 February 2009, on 8:48 pm
Wow, it’s really not all that big of a deal. We’re out and open on campus, and we’ve received some negative reactions, but for the most part people either love what we’re doing, respect our right to do it, or just ignore us. Those few Fundies who just can’t let it go are content to just stick around and badger us with what they think are insightful, tough to answer questions until we get bored and sick our resident anarchist/anti-theist on them and they skidaddle.
14 March 2009, on 11:08 pm
this is the lousiest site in the universe you should be ashamed
From the moderators…sorry kid, free speech and all that.
You should be ashamed of needing an imaginary friend and not questioning what your uneducated pastors tell you. (They are duping you to keep you in the flock and to keep taking your money by scaring you into believing a myth is real.) Find yourself from a plank of wood in the middle of the vast ocean and no help comes unless humans come by on a freighter or something. THINK about it.