The tired-old religion vs evolution debate goes on, and on, and on
11 February 2009 by Stardust
Tomorrow is Darwin Day, the 200th birthday of Charles Darwin. The Seattle-based Discovery Institute that pushes “intelligent design” theory and anti-evolution propaganda, plans to put its own spin on “honoring” Darwin this Thursday, calling it Academic Freedom day, which can also be described as Freedom to Teach Your Child to Be Stupid Day.
Americans United’s Sandhya Bathija says,
Instead of “Darwin Day,” Institute strategists will observe what they call “Academic Freedom Day,” promoting events that “give students and youth workers a way to express their support for free speech and the right to debate the evidence for and against evolution.”
The think tank, which was behind Ben Stein’s documentary, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, masks its intentions to push a creationist agenda by working in the name of “academic freedom.” The Religious Right-backed outfit claims that students’ “academic freedom is trampled everyday” because students are “censored” from critiquing Darwin’s theory of evolution in science classrooms.
These creationist idiots just don’t get it. Their religious beliefs have no place in a science classroom. No one is “trampling on their academic freedoms”. If they wish to offer debate to Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, then do it with sound science and not bring your “faith” into it. They have their churches, and they have their own church schools where their children are free to attend to be trained to be ignorant of Science and evolution. It’s very sad for the children who are brainwashed with lies and false information, but religious folks have the freedom to pump whatever crap they want into their children’s brains.
Because of the Institute’s influence, four states are already mulling “academic freedom” bills this year: Iowa, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Alabama. These bills seek to require science educators to teach the “strengths and weaknesses” of evolution, or use other code language to push a creationist agenda.
It’s not enough for them to believe what they choose to believe, but these amendments are attempts to witness to all children and to push their religion into the public school classrooms.
Thank human reason there are other people who believe in the god fantasy who have managed to reconcile their faith and evolution.
That’s the message many religious leaders plan to send to their congregations this week in observance of Darwin Day. Nearly 1,000 clergy members will discuss the relationship between religion and science in an event called “Evolution Weekend.”
And from Ethics Daily.com:
With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin occurring on Feb. 12 and the 150th anniversary of the publication of his work On the Origin of Species also happening in 2009, many religious leaders hope to use services that weekend to make “it clear that those claiming that people must choose between religion and science are creating a false dichotomy.”
“One important goal is to elevate the quality of the discussion on this critical topic–to move beyond sound bites,” explains the Web site for Evolution Weekend. “A second critical goal is to demonstrate that religious people from many faiths and locations understand that evolution is sound science and poses no problems for their faith.”
If the Religious Right dumbasses took time to understand what evolution actually is then there wouldn’t be any need to debate theology vs science. They are two separate things. Fortunately, many religious folks do understand this.
11 February 2009, on 4:19 pm
I hate to rain on everybody’s parade but there is no link between science and religion. In religion, you have to believe what you’re told to the letter and not raise any questions about it. You only consider the so-called “evidence” that supports the conclusion you started out with in the first place. Science constitutes the OPPOSITE approach, where you examine all the evidence and see where it leads you. I am sick of all these mealy mouthed lets-join-hands types who want to link the two!
11 February 2009, on 4:24 pm
Brooklyn Boy, I think me using the word “reconcile” caused some confusion. I should have written that thank goodness there are many Xians who are reconciled that faith is one thing, and science is another. Two separate things. Their sky daddy beliefs belong in their mythology temples, not in a science classroom. Sky Daddy beliefs and creationism debate belong in the theology classroom.
11 February 2009, on 4:32 pm
You’re right Stardust. But I am still wary of church types who try to tell me that there is a “link” between faith and science. The appropriate context of the discussion assures real academic freedom for all concerned.
11 February 2009, on 5:26 pm
we recognize the importance of having an open and honest debate between evolution and intelligent design.”
Grrrr…. This makes me so angry! Those liars have absolutely no interest in being open or honest. All their devious and deceptive ways have been clearly exposed by Barbara Forrest and Paul R. Gross in “Creationism’s Trojan Horse”. The only way they could begin to enter into an HONEST debate is to admit that they are peddling old-fashioned creationism, a RELIGIOUS theory, not a scientific theory. The Discovery Institute has produced NO research papers for publication in peer-reviewed journals that offer any alternative to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. They want academic freedom to lie to students. Maybe witches should start lobbying for time in the classroom to teach spells for economic prosperity since they likely have a better return than the current stock market financial analysts offer.
11 February 2009, on 5:27 pm
Darn! I hit the wrong key to end my italics. The part after the book title should be in plain font. Sorry!
11 February 2009, on 5:38 pm
These events will give students and youth workers a way to express their support for free speech and the right to debate the evidence for and against evolution.
What evidence AGAINST evolution? Scientists, educators and academics are eager to see the evidence. The ID proponents have failed to deliver. Meanwhile truly honest and open scientists continue to dig up and collect millions of tons of evidence for evolution. These superficial manipulators of rhetoric continue to behave as though Evolutionists have a problem with free speech and the right to debate the evidence. This is completely false and these sophists know it. AH! I’m so fed up with them!
11 February 2009, on 5:44 pm
Darn! I hit the wrong key to end my italics. The part after the book title should be in plain font. Sorry!
Fixed.
11 February 2009, on 5:45 pm
Lynda, to go along with your comment concerning evidence against evolution, here is this little thingy:
11 February 2009, on 6:10 pm
LOL! Thanks! Love it, Stardust!
And I needed a laugh after getting into a debate with a Jesus-freak over at the Canadian Atheist Bus Campaign web site: http://atheistbus.ca/2009/02/10/ottawa-next-stop-on-canadian-atheist-bus-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1175
Anybody else here want to let this guy know what you think of “The Kingdom of G-d is Within You” ?
11 February 2009, on 6:50 pm
Lynda, I made a little comment on that website about “the Kingdom of G-d is within you” bullshit. The kingdom of gawd is only inside the imagination of the believers, that’s it. Nothing happens without human action or inaction. The guy is a doofus. It’s irritating how arrogant and smug some of these Xians are.
11 February 2009, on 8:33 pm
Thanks, Stardust!
Definitely a doofus and very smug. Smug with no facts or evidence to back him up, just like the ID supporters.
11 February 2009, on 9:06 pm
SHIT!!!!!!
You guys have got to read this story of a person in the Vancouver airport being asked by a police officer to put his book away after a fellow passenger complained that she found the book offensive. The book was “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins! What the hell is happening to our liberties? And this is Canada, folks! I’m jaw-dropped shocked!
Here’s the story: http://atheistbus.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9
11 February 2009, on 10:13 pm
Lynda- I fear for Canada’s near-future. I have no idea how the conservatives continue to hold power there, but it’s definitely losing a lot of the freedom I’ve always found appealing about it. (I’m not Canadian, btw. Just spent a lot of time there.) It kind of feels like the aftershock of Bush in the US, to me. Hopefully there’ll be a new wave of liberalism next election. *Crosses fingers*
As to the topic of this post… Seriously? “Academic Freedom”? Exactly what part of your brainwashing, caveman-stories is “academic”? Stop using words like that. Just because you use a big word like “intelligence,” or a sophisticated word like “debate,” that doesn’t make your bible stories any more accurate (and in the end, that’s all there is to it.)
11 February 2009, on 11:39 pm
Thanks, Stardust for such a timely Post…and your excellent, bullseye, commentary.
Followed-up, of course, by the usual informative GifSter insights.
The old…”So many things to say; but they’ve all been said so much better by others!”…comes to my mind.
I had totally forgotten that Darwin Day was tomorrow; a subject which always “cries” for the updating of one’s info.
On a tangential tack; realizing there are others…I’m repeating a couple of links to present to anyone who’s totally in the dark about Evolution…and likewise, the totally widespread and mis-informed desperate clinging to the Creationist baloney.
[and, possibly, for consideration by Creationist Lurkers?]
First…
“Potholer54’s Playlist: From Big Bang to Us — Made Easy”
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DB23537556D7AADB
And the same author’s series of Creationist debunking videos…
under the title “Potholer54debunks’s Channel”
For that series…go here (which also has some repeats of the above series):
http://www.youtube.com/user/Potholer54debunks
Wow, Lynda…
that Vancouver info has kinda blown away the last remnants of my really old fantasy (from the 1960s) of moving to Canada for a much more sane, secular…less warlike…existence.
It does, however, make the fact that I’ve long been a rather “hopelessly stuck, poor American…now, Senior Citizen”…more easy to accept.
Yeah…moving anywhere, these days, for me, is out of the question.
Ummmm…like…my “Fate” has been sealed!…?
12 February 2009, on 12:01 am
Maybe we need to be a bit proactive in thsi matter. Instead of “Teach the ontroversy”. How about we begin a new campaign and relabel it “Teach the LIE”. Then the rational people would be delivering the lie and exposing it for what it really is all about.
Lynda
I read your comments to that guy. Too good, you rock.
12 February 2009, on 12:28 am
I once said, in a thread about this, that I wanted the schools to teach that 4th dimensional reptiles came to this planet and genetically engineered man as slaves (it’s my favorite retort).
I was told to grow up by a creationists. Another one asked me who created the reptiles.
12 February 2009, on 12:38 am
Wow. Don’t these folks feel kinda stupid being behind Catholics on this one? I mean, Catholics finally gave up the ignorance struggle and joined the thinking world in regards to evolution back in 1996.
Come on fundies, don’t let the Catholics make you look even crazier than them!
12 February 2009, on 10:14 am
This morning I watched again the Nova program about the Dover school board trial on Evolution vs ID in the public school classrooms. What always gets me is the amount of lying that these fun-dies resort to in their attempts to circumvent the law and the violent threats they hurl at those who uphold the US Constitution.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DARWIN!
12 February 2009, on 11:25 am
James, troll in the archives, who was banned some time ago left this little pile of poo…I was going to simply delete it but decided it needs to be mocked.
Well, James. We can dig up the bones of Charles Darwin, for starters. And how pathetic to need to troll atheist blogs to try to drum up traffic on your idiotic blog. Bye James.
12 February 2009, on 7:26 pm
We are of course trying to overtake your special day. Just like the homosexuals, you atheists want special rights and trample over everything sacred. We will squash all your special days and reclaim them as our own, just like we did with the Druids. Mwa ha ha!
5 March 2009, on 10:16 am
Hello!!!!! Do You guys really think that what your saying is actually logically. Think about it! You are saying that Creationism should not be taught in school, because it is a religous belief, but evolution can. The belief that humans evolved throughout time to become what we are now is just as much of a religion as Creationism or even Intelligent design is. For this reason, if Kids are taught evolution in schools, technically it schould be considered “favoring” one religion over the others. Also, think about this: you probably don’t know this, but what evolutionists can’t prove they just discard as not important or relevant to the case. I don’t know about you,but that sounds an awful lot like copping out on subjects that should be looked at very carefully. If you guys are so obsessed with evolution, you should be able to answer a few questions for me.
1. Can show me that a complex organ can adapt and change over a long period of time?
2. Can you show me where the universe ends, because if evolution is true the universe only could’ve gotten so far right?
3. Why is it that you have not proved that evolution is true?
4. Why is it that the percentage of people acceptin evolution declining drastically in the last 50 some years?
So here are a few questions to think about, and when you get a chance let me know thed answers. Thanks for listening.
5 March 2009, on 11:12 am
The belief that humans evolved throughout time to become what we are now is just as much of a religion as Creationism or even Intelligent design is.
This statement alone expressed that you know nothing at all about evolution or the evolutionary process and we recommend that you go to school and actually pay attention to the scientific evidence that is provided which is verifiable and reproducible.
If you take the courses, your questions will be answered. I am not going to spoonfeed idiots. Origins.com is a good place to start answering some of the questions you have asked.
Also, Can you show me evidence for the existence of your god? Scientific, verifiable evidence? (Not just “oh look at how pretty the world is, there MUST be a god, there really must!”)
Can your god show us where the universe ends, and provide the answers to what scientists have been searching for for thousands upon thousands of years?
Why is it that you have not proven that your god is true?
Where are you links to the facts and research about your claims that evolution “belief” is on the decline? I have not seen this in the true academic environment. Maybe it is true in god schools, but not schools that teach real science, or in families who value science education.
Many god believers want to close their eyes to the evidence and do not want to even try to understand real science. Also, the world is getting lazier when it comes to academics. Much easier to say Goddidit than to spend the time learning and exploring and doing the hard stuff.
Education is true knowledge.
13 March 2009, on 8:18 am
http://theory-of-evolution.net/introduction/intelligent-design-creationism-evolution.php
This web page has a graph and some information about how evolutionary beliefs are declining
How did humans (and everything else) come into existence? The only explanation you will find in public school and university textbooks is the theory of evolution. Yet, no scientific, provable evidence supporting the theory of evolution has emerged since Charles Darwin popularized it in 1859.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml
http://www.theory-of-evolution.net/
Also on this page you will find that the evolutionary theory can still not be proven.
Since Neither of us can prove the other wrong, we should try looking into both sides of the argument. Then we can talk about what “TRUE KNOWLEDGE” is.
Sorry I didn’t give you some links the first time.
13 March 2009, on 8:26 am
Jon, you clearly do not understand the meaning of SCIENTIFIC THEORY and you show that you absolutely do not understand what Evolution is. Secondly, your sources are questionable, and biased. You would be best to take a university-level course and learn and understand what evolution and scientific theory actually is. Theory does not mean a “guess”…scientific theory is based on lots and lots of verifiable and reproducible evidence. What do you have in creationism’s corner? You have faith, and beliefs according to what undereducated or biased pastors tell you. Evangelical “science teachers” are a joke. Most Christians understand that creationism is THEOLOGY not science.
Scientific theory is a “systematic ideational structure of broad scope, conceived by the human imagination, that encompasses a family of empirical (experiential) laws regarding regularities existing in objects and events, both observed and posited. A scientific theory is a structure suggested by these laws and is devised to explain them in a scientifically rational manner.” Check out a good site with links to hundreds of credible sources concerning Evolution at TalkOrigins.com.
As for the decline about belief in evolution, that isn’t even debatable. I will admit, however that the United States in general is becoming less and less educated and we wonder why all of our jobs are going overseas. Our children cannot compete in the world with only an education in fairy tales. Just look at the Muslim countries and the way that they live. Look at how the uneducated live in this country. Another for the decline in knowledge and education of our children is that fundamentalist Christians who do not value true education keep popping out more and more babies and feeding them bullshit, while the educated understand global population problems and the impact it is having on the planet and choose to have one, two or no children. So stupid people are populating the world which is unfortunate.
14 March 2009, on 6:06 pm
who runs this blog? I want to ask them why my comments weren’t approved.
14 March 2009, on 7:02 pm
Christian Scientist, my apologies if your comments were not approved. We have a glitch in WordPress where sometimes comments are diverted to the Spam queue if they are too long, contain certain words and phrases, too many links or suspicious links, advertising, porn, etc. Spam comments are deleted regularly and are too numerous to comb though to see if regular comments get caught up in there.
New commenters are sent to the moderation queue waiting approval for posting. I found this comment in our moderation queue and allowed it through. I saw no other comments from you in the moderation queue.
You might want to try it again and see what happens. I don’t know what you wrote so can’t tell why it may have gone to spam.
14 March 2009, on 7:26 pm
Lets use some logic here. Science is only what can be observed. Has evolution ever been observed? I don’t mean micro-evolution. I want to know if the change of an entire species has ever been observed. I highly doubt that it has.
Here are some general questions about evolution. Where did life come from according to evolution? How old is the universe suppose to be according to evolution?
14 March 2009, on 7:27 pm
If you want education since it is true knowledge then how about educate yourselves about your own religion. That is right, I am talking about evolution. Think about it, science is only what we can observe(even our observations are subject to error), none of us observed evolution(with the exception of micro-evolution. I will discus this later)(or creation I admit), how then can evolution be a science? Another thing, this “science” is based on random mutation and long periods of time(I mean in billions of years). First on the random mutations(real name of the evolutionary theory is the Mutation Selection Theory). When has a mutation ever been good for the creature that has mutated? Example: the dachshund terrier. This little guy was bred to be able to easily go down in holes and kill or run out varmints. However, because of another of his DNA traits, whenever he is picked up by the scruff of his neck, his back will break. If you want more examples then just respond and say so.
I will address the long periods of time in my next post.
14 March 2009, on 7:29 pm
Now to the long periods of time. This is probably based on the carbon dating theory( if not then correct me). Well I have to point out that this carbon dating does work but only if the original number is known. If we don’t know the original number then someone can put in any number they want. If you all know the 2nd law of thermodynamics then you should know this part of it “The randomness and disorder of the universe is increasing.” If life is getting more complex(according to evolution) then this law be should inaccurate? If this law is wrong then do you not have to question the first law? If either of them is wrong then what do you say to all the research that has proven them?
Thanks to stardust for the information on my posts.
14 March 2009, on 7:38 pm
Below is a link that may be interesting to some of you. If you can answer any of the question then do so. The authors beliefs start on page two.
http://www.apologiaonline.com/conf/creat_ev_gap.pdf
14 March 2009, on 7:54 pm
Christian Scientist. Obviously you lack understanding of what evolution is. Of course it cannot be observed at one time because it is a gradual process over millions and millions of years. Evolution has been “observed” over time via fossils and other evidence found in geology, etc. This evidence can be verified repeatedly in various parts of the world with many, many species of living organisms.
You are confusing evolution with the origins of life and the universe. Most god believers can reconcile their religion and evolution and have no problem with it because they truly understand what evolution is.
Now, if you are talking about the origins of life and the universe, there are different theories based on scientific evidence and data collected by astronomers throughout the centuries. Some evidence is proven false and discarded, and scientists are open to changing their viewpoints and theories as new evidence and facts come into the picture. TalkOrigins.com is a good place to go for links to credible sources concerning evolution and the origins of life.
Just because we do not know for certain where life began or know the origins of the universe does not prove that an imaginary friend did it.
Now you are letting your own true ignorance shine. Evolution is not a religion. It is science. You are keeping yourself in the dark if you choose to keep believing that.
When has a mutation ever been good for the creature that has mutated? Example: the dachshund terrier.
Haha, are you for real? This is too hilarious! Dachshund terriers are a breed, purposely created by dog breeders to make a dog that could get under shrubbery, and into low places when hunting badgers, etc. They didn’t just naturally “evolve” that way. Please…go to TalkOrigins.com and educate yourself before you make yourself look even more foolish than you already have.
If you all know the 2nd law of thermodynamics
LOL…we have heard this “reasoning” from Christians time and time again…the old 2nd law of thermodynamics reasoning, yadda yadda yadda and that rhetoric has also been implanted into your brain by your religion.
14 March 2009, on 8:04 pm
This is probably based on the carbon dating theory
Carbon dating is absolutely not a theory. It is a true method where scientists can date their findings. This I suspect is what your church is feeding you, also. Seems like you are in need of a basic Physics course.
Radioactive carbon dating explained
Now I know your ultimate motive here is to try to get us to believe that your sky daddy made every single thing in the whole universe…etc, etc. And since you want to put your imaginary friend beliefs into the realm of science, let’s turn this around and we ask that you please answer the following questions:
What are ID’s scientific predictions?
What are its unifying principles?
What experiments have been done to support your ID theory? WITHOUT THE MYTHOLOGY BOOK.
14 March 2009, on 8:15 pm
And since this is an older post and not expected to get any more comments other than mine since I am a moderator here who mans the queue, here are some evolution sites to really educate yourself about evolution if you are truly interested in truth and scientific knowledge.
Before I post the links, I will first define what scientific theory is. A scientific theory is NOT a lucky guess and your ignorant church leaders will want you to believe. They want to keep you in the sheeple fold and think that if you get some real facts and information you will be too smart to believe their bullcrap and leave the fold.
Here is explanation of what scientific theory is:
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it. Therefore, theories can be disproven. Basically, if evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, then the hypothesis can become accepted as a good explanation of a phenomenon. One definition of a theory is to say it’s an accepted hypothesis.
As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.
Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.
A fact is something that is supported by unmistakeable evidence. For example, the Grand Canyon cuts through layers of different kinds of rock, such as the Coconino sandstone, Hermit shale, and Redwall limestone. These rock layers often contain fossils that are found only in certain layers. Those are the facts.
Creationists refuse to subject their “theories” to peer reviews, because they know they don’t fit the facts. The creationist mindset is distorted by the concept of “good science” (creationism) vs. “bad science” (anything not in agreement with creationism). Creation “scientists” are biblical fundamentalists who can not accept anything contrary to their sectarian religioius beliefs.
You can read more HERE at About.com
Evolution on PBS
Understanding Evolution- University of California, Berkley (Sponsored by National Science Foundation)
Professor John Hawks Anthropology, Genetics and Evolution
14 March 2009, on 8:49 pm
Why do they always find the old ones to make mischief.
Jon And Xian Scientist are not very bright though. The same old tired comments and they don’t really get it do they? Evolution is the fact of life on Earth and religion can’t handle it. Just like some little sissy kids who must have their way.
Taking over our special days? Try again. The religious have been insinuating themselves into others business since they learned how to threaten people. It is predatory and maliscious just like their religion.
You two should read a real book sometime. You would do yourself a service. As it is you are despicable liars or worse your just plain Stupid.
14 March 2009, on 10:06 pm
jimmer, yep…they always go to the older pages to post, never coming to the main page, and never really reading anything before posting forcing us to repeat ourselves again and again and again.
The religious have been insinuating themselves into others business since they learned how to threaten people. I
Exactly. And when they cant get their way, or when it seems that things are just too logical, they start tossing their madness around at atheist blogs. If they really wanted to learn anything they would go to a credible university and pay attention.
CS won’t be back anytime soon, I suspect, especially after making an ass out of himself with Dachshund thing. Too funny!
14 March 2009, on 10:23 pm
Yeah the dachshund. LOL
I think I’ll have to listen to them when they can come up with competing theories of Gravity, Relativity and all the rest. They never venture into any other area because they can’t even begin to discuss the math involved. But these wanks can pretend evolution is incorrect because they don’t need any special training to speak. Unfortunately for them they reveal themsselves as incompetent regarding Evolution once they open their pie hole.
15 March 2009, on 6:43 am
Evolution has been “observed” over time via fossils and other evidence found in geology, etc.
- Then what do you say to the missing links? Why haven’t they been found? This still isn’t science. We did not observe this. This is man(whose observation are subject to error) making a speculation. Also shouldn’t there be many more fossils than there are? The earth seems sparse compared to the amount of fossils that there should be if dinosaur fossils (I used dinosaurs because that is what is often see on TV and in articles or books) were billions(or millions if you like) of years old.
15 March 2009, on 7:14 am
Most god believers can reconcile their religion and evolution and have no problem with it because they truly understand what evolution is.
- If they truly believe in the one true God and everything that he has said then they can’t reconcile, compromise or agree with evolution at all.
15 March 2009, on 7:18 am
You are confusing evolution with the origins of life and the universe.
- – Don’t you need one of these theories to be true and agree with evolution? What about the one(can’t remember the name) that says that that there was a bunch of nucleotides in a liquid substance just moving around at random and two nucleotides suddenly combined. This kept happening to make the first ladder of DNA. This DNA(according to the theory) was the DNA of the first one celled organism. This is completely abserd. the chances of this is one in one billionth(this is probably quite low but I have not yet learned how to calculate these kind of probability problems yet).
15 March 2009, on 2:26 pm
Then what do you say to the missing links? Why haven’t they been found? This still isn’t science.
Of course some missing links have been found. By this statement alone you have shown that you have not read anything at all on this site, and you came back and commented before reading the massive amounts of information, credible sources, etc that I have presented to you. If you believe that evolution isn’t science, and you refuse to take the initiative to educate yourself, then you are a complete and utter moron.
John Hawks site will answer all of the crap that you have presented. The sites I directed you to are scientific, not newsertainment. Get an education, please.
15 March 2009, on 2:32 pm
If they truly believe in the one true God and everything that he has said then they can’t reconcile, compromise or agree with evolution at all.
That means in other words that if they are truly brainwashed with eyes closed to all proven science they will reject what educated from credible scientists and educators from the top universities and institutes have found via research and centuries of evidence.
Those religious folks who can reconcile their religion and science are probably “evolving” away from the mythology and waking up to reason. Christianity will die away just like all the other ancient mythologies of the past. But we won’t see it in our lifetime. It took the Greeks and Egyptians thousands of years to die out…but unfortunately dumbass people replaced those mythologies with new ones…the cycle goes on and on because most people love fantasy.
15 March 2009, on 2:38 pm
Sounds like you haven’t learned much of anything concerning real science yet. Do you attend evangelical brainwashing school, or a real accredited school that teaches proven science? If it is the latter, you need to stop sleeping in class. And if you come to sites like ours’ asking questions, then at least read the damn links we provide you with. We are not going to spoon-feed you all that information. We don’t have time.
READ TALKORIGINS.COM AND THE OTHER SOURCES WE SUPPLIED AND PLEASE PLEASE STOP WASTING OUR TIME…THIS DEBATE IS TIRED, TIRED TIRED BECAUSE YOU DELUSIONAL GOD BOTHERERS REFUSE TO EDUCATE YOURSELVES. YOU SIMPLY SPEW FORTH WHAT YOUR BRAINWASHING PASTORS TELL YOU AND YOU ALSO CONTINUE TO BRAINWASH YOURSELVES.
We are not going to continue going in circles with you. You must take initiative on your own to truly learn and at least try to understand science.
Finally, like all Xians who troll here wanting to only hurl out your brainwashed falsehoods and ignorance, you have not answered the three questions asked of you…if you want to put your god believe in the scientific comparison then answer the following or don’t come back and waste our time.
What are ID’s scientific predictions?
What are its unifying principles?
What experiments have been done to support your ID theory? WITHOUT THE MYTHOLOGY BOOK.
15 March 2009, on 4:52 pm
Christian
You do not speak of any true scientific theories. You do not ahve a grasp on even the simplest of biologic theories let alone any mechanism. Just stop it. You do not add to any understanding and you are truly grossly wrong. Evolution is the fact and the gaps are getting smaller. Deep down inside you know it and are terrified. There is no observable god and while we can’t prove there is not something. We can be pretty certain. Either way though god is irrelevent in our lives. Also dead people DON’T come back from the dead.
Science is not built by religion. Your religion wants this to be untrue. Therefore it is untrue. It is disengenuous to parrot what you have with so little background. Intelligent Design and Creationism have zero scientific basis and zero scientific recognition. Not because they are religious but because they do NOT have any valid nor reliable arguments put forth that have been tested and found to be adequate. They fail at every scientific metric. The fact that they call Intelligent Design and Creationism “Science” Is a willfull and outrageous LIE. And the men and women who make such claims are liars. The worst part of it is that they know they lie.
Your opinion is only that an opinion. You do not have any facts or observations to back up your opinion.
15 March 2009, on 5:35 pm
jimmer, well said. Religious folks will pull out any kind of memorized rhetoric in an attempt to frantically hang onto what they want to believe as truth. Just as a child resists at first the idea that Santa Claus is just a fictional being, invented by human imagination. As kids get older they suspect that Santa may not be real but they try to cling to the myth, and eventually maturity shows them that Santa is not real, and they must let it go. Adults who cling to god belief just haven’t reached that maturity in that one aspect of their lives. They want so bad to believe they will not die, that they are not alone and that something greater than themselves is watching over them and where they live.
From the chaotic events observed in the universe, educated people know that this is not true. We are alone, we are very, very lucky if we are not hit by a great asteroid (one day though we won’t be so lucky and an asteroid will hit the earth once more or a super volcano will erupt and kill most life on the planet).
15 March 2009, on 8:34 pm
Stardust
Something greater watching over them. I still get that feeling but I attribute it to indoctrination that forced a paranoid state upon us.
16 March 2009, on 11:16 pm
I am very busy and only respond when I have the time.
From the Moderator – this is what Xians always say when they are scrambling around for answers, probably asking your pastors and friends of the church what to say…it’s a stalling for time tactic. Before trolling other blogs and trying to “preach” to others, you better know both sides of a debate.
I was going to answer the three questions when I got to them. My plan was to go down your posts and respond to thing I disagree with along and along. However since you want these questions answered so bad I will answer them earlier than I was going to.
1. The invasion of Israel by Gog and Magog. Israel will be overpowered and God will deliver them with blood and fire. For more information on this read Ezekiel chapters thirty-eight and thirty-nine. Our biggest prediction isn’t very scientific because science will probably try to explain it away with radiation, aliens, or who knows what. I am talking about the rapture. To read more on this see I Thessalonians 4
This is not a scientific answer to the question ” What are ID’s scientific predictions?” Your biggest “prediction” isn’t AT ALL scientific. You are confusing theology and science…two separate things totally. One is based on evidence, the other is based on your feelings and beliefs…and I asked you NOT to use your mythology book. Use scientific evidence.
16 March 2009, on 11:28 pm
2. If you mean what are the unifying principles of my beliefs then say so. There are no unifying principles in anything(not Christianity or evolution) because everyone can make up their own ideas. I also would like to take this time to return the questions to you. I think that I should also tell you that you may need to explain your explanations because I am only in ninth grade. This also answers why I haven’t had a basics in biology yet. Next year I am not going to my normal school but will be attending my local public school. I would also like to ask if any of you looked at the link that I provided above.
From the Moderator…NO, I didn’t ask what are the unifying principles of your beliefs are. I asked what are the underlying principles of Intelligent Design that you claim to be scientific. Again, you are showing us your ignorance and refusal to understand science and evolution. No questions will be answered of your’s until you answer ours since what you choose to discuss involves your imaginary friend. First you must prove existence of that imaginary friend, or else we have no basis to even discuss or debate anything concerning your god’s involvement in anything. I was a fundie Xian when I was younger, I know the delusion quite well, just as I know your mythology book quite well. It’s not a scientific book, but is a book full of fables, stories, and epic tales, etc. It is NOT science.
Of course there are unifying principles in scientific experimentation. You cannot find any unifying principles for your Intelligent Design because there are none, and that is what you have just admitted. However, to say that there is no unifying principles in evolution, you are only continuing to exhibit your ignorance for all to see. We are educated folks, many of us hold Masters and PhDs and several of us are teachers and professors. What we suggest, again and again is for you to go read the links, learn for yourself and attempt to open your mind and understand. Shake the cobwebs of religious out of your eyes. When I was in the 9th grade I understood basic biology. Have you taken a biology course yet?
And if you are so young, please don’t come try to act superior to a bunch of college graduates who are three or four decades older than you are. READ THE LINKS….STAY IN SCHOOL….PAY ATTENTION AND READ THE DAMN LINKS WE PROVIDED. You will not learn if we spoon feed you, nor do we have the time for it. TalkOrigins.com, John Hawks, University of California at Berkley website, your local museum, LIBRARIES, bookstores, the internet…the world is full of information about evolution. Just pull yourself out of the darkness of religion and forget what those goofy pastors and deluded sheeple are feeding you.
16 March 2009, on 11:49 pm
3. To be honest I don’t know. I do know of one person that had devoted his life to disproving the Bible. His name is Josh McDowll. This man is now preaching the Bible as truth and is showing others why it is true. You may like to look at his website or read some of his books. josh.org
On a side note, NO experiment can prove evolution or creation. an experiment can only give us data that we have to interpret. The interpretation can be influenced by the person, sponsors of their research, or that the data points so much toward one conclusion that it can’t bi ignored.
I also want to ask you to what your opinion of abortion is. Is it murder or not?
From the Moderator – Let’s not get off track here. We are discussing scientific evidence for the existence of your god. Abortion has zip to do with what we are discussing here. What experiments have been done to support your ID theory? You are absolutely ignorant about evolution and your comment once again shows that you are not reading the links provided to you which will show all of the scientific research, experiments, findings fossils, carbon dating, etc. You simply choose to waste our time here with your religious drivel. I asked these questions to prove to you that there is nothing scientific at all about your beliefs. You are choosing to believe something based on faith and feelings.
17 March 2009, on 7:11 am
Explanations for CS…
Scientific Prediction:
In a scientific context, a prediction is a rigorous, (often quantitative), statement forecasting what will happen under specific conditions, typically expressed in the form If A is true, then B will also be true. The scientific method is built on testing assertions which are logical consequences of scientific theories. This is done through repeatable experiments or observational studies.
A scientific theory whose assertions are not in accordance with observations and evidence will probably be rejected. Theories that make no testable predictions remain protosciences until testable predictions become known to the community.
Additionally, if new theories generate many new predictions, they are often highly valued, for they can be quickly and easily confirmed or falsified (see predictive power). In many scientific fields, desirable theories are those which predict a large number of events from relatively few underlying principles.
Quantum physics is an unusual field of science because it enables scientists to make predictions on the basis of probability.
Mathematical models and computer models are frequently used to both describe the behaviour of something, and predict its future behaviour.
In microprocessors, branch prediction permits to avoid pipeline emptying at branch instructions. Engineering is a field that involves predicting failure and avoiding it through component or system redundancy.
Some fields of science are notorious for the difficulty of accurate prediction and forecasting, such as software reliability, natural disasters, pandemics, demography, population dynamics and meteorology.
Evolution is the most important underlying principles of biology.
Evidence and support of evolution:
The fossil record provides direct evidence that life has evolved on this planet. This is referred to as historical evolution (to distinguish it from theories about the mechanisms of evolution) and is considered by most biologists to be an established fact. One line of evidence for historical evolution is the presence of transitional fossils such as those that demonstrate a link between terrestrial mammals and whales or sea cows. These are sometimes referred to as “missing links” though, of course, once discovered this is a misnomer.
# One beautiful example of a transitional fossil is Archaeopteryx lithographica, which has both dinosaur and avian features. Chris Nedin has a great site that will answer many of your questions about why Archaeopteryx is so special.
# Vestigial structures provide clues about a species’ evolutionary past. Examples include the vestigial pelvic bones found in modern whales and the tiny hind legs of a fossil snake. (Or is it still a lizard?)
17 March 2009, on 7:22 am
More CS PLEASE READ
One of the most respected evolutionary biologists has defined biological evolution as follows:
“In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution … is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions.”
– Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986
It is important to note that biological evolution refers to populations and not to individuals and that the changes must be passed on to the next generation. In practice this means that,
Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.
If fundamentalist Xians would get rid of the Noah bullshit fable and stop believing in the absurdity that the billions-year-old earth is NOT just 6,000 years old, then you might be able to wrap your brains around what evolution actually is and you would see how much sense it makes.
17 March 2009, on 7:50 am
Now, back to the abortion question…briefly..
CS you asked,” I also want to ask you to what your opinion of abortion is. Is it murder or not?”
I have some questions for you….
Why are fundies so OBSESSED about abortion and not concerned about the children already born who suffer severe poverty, neglect and are starving? Do you think it is murder to ignore those children and do nothing to help feed them?
Do you believe in the death penalty? (Delayed abortion)
Do you believing in sending troops off to die for a cause in the name of your god? (delayed abortion)
Your religion is a total contradiction. Let’s not forget that the god of the Xian mythology is the biggest abortionist of all time. In your horrible mythology book, this god kills thousands upon thousands of innocent children and infants. Oh, you will say “well god can do whatever he wants”. Then my question is…considering human moral standards, why would you want to believe in a god that commits such horrible things and who would control his creations through acts of violence? This god who gets pissed off because he makes beings who exercise their free will that he made them with….and what does he do when he gets pissed off? He kills things! And many Xians throughout the ages have killed in the name of their god…Crusades, Inquisition, invasions of other lands to conquer for their god. Horrible. As horrible and absurd as any Greek, Roman or Egyptian gods. Study and compare all those and the Christian mythology and really think about it before even bringing up the abortion issue.
Religious folks think they have a right to poke their heads into a woman’s uterus, you are obsessed with sex and pornography, you have an obsession with the sexual life of homosexuals…and you are the ones bringing all the attention to these things.
You are being programmed by the powers of those who control you and the masses who are dazzled with a fantasy of everlasting life…something we cannot have. You can wish all you want, but all we have is the here and now.
Get out of the cult while you are still young. You will look at the world in a whole new and compassionate way…a humanist way.
20 March 2009, on 8:17 pm
This is part of my replies. I will finish when I can.
The only Christians who have killed in name of God are the Catholics. Their which hunts have killed many people. I am not Catholic. I am a Baptist.
From the Moderators – you are showing your lack of knowledge and history again. Of course it hasn’t only been the Catholics who have killed people. The people doing the witch hunts in early times were Protestants. KKK has mostly Baptist and other evangelical protestant members.
“Do you believe in the death penalty?”(People only receive the death penalty if they commit certain crimes) ~The wages of sin is death. You should recognize this stardust.
You should recognize, CS, the contradiction of your beliefs. You profess that only god can take a life, not humans. Then you say that it is okay for humans to kill. You are talking out of both side of your face.
“a humanist way”(the belief that man is the ultimate source of values)
~You humanist are the ones that gave us communism. Karal Marix,
who???? Learn to spell the historical figures you are referring to. You most likely know nothing at all about Karl Marx except what your brainwashing center tell you. What have YOU read by Marx? What are his books? What are your specific beefs with what he states? He is merely saying what your Jesus says…feed the masses, house the homeless…Jesus didn’t own anything, wandered around taking handouts. Think about it. That is the Marxist philosophy.
the person that came up with the idea of communism, was a proud humanist that wrote some books and still has a following to this day.
And then you should also hate your Jesus since he was a Marxist.
” you are obsessed with sex”
~Only obsessed with stopping it out of marriage
Don’t you think there are better things to do? I think you all get your jollies peering into people’s sex lives. BTW, why don’t you teach your kids proper sex education since the fundamentalist Christians have the highest out-of-wedlock birth rates. Prime example…Bristol Palin.
Enuf said.
“fantasy of everlasting life…something we cannot have. You can wish all you want, but all we have is the here and now.”
~I would like to see you say that on judgment day
There you go, more fantasy. There will be no fucking “judgment day”. That is just something xians thought up to get imaginary retaliation against those who do not think like you do. It’s vindictive.
“Do you believing in sending troops off to die for a cause in the name of your god?”
~when have we done that?
Bushie said it. God told him to invade Iraq. Prayers are constantly said for our soldiers to go in and defeat the enemies (more killing).
If you are talking about the war in Afghanistan and Iraq that was because of a retaliation on September 11th. Which by the way I think it would have been wiser to say that we would pray for them instead of going to war. The troops also know what they are getting into when they go.
Tell that to the reserves who joined to protect our soil and are ripped from their families to go overseas. They go because that’s their job, but I know many who do not support it.
“you have an obsession with the sexual life of homosexuals”
~because it goes against our beliefs and we just want them to change and turn to God.
Because you are intolerant when they do absolutely nothing at all to you. You want a borg society with all the same cookie cutter people…all ready to bow down, drink the kool aid whatever for your imaginary friend. Insane.
I will not elaborate on this further.
Good, because it’s nothing but bigotry on your part. Let’s start stoning you and those like you for smart-mouthing your parents, etc. It’s in your Bible. Read Leviticus.
“and pornography”
~again obsessed with stopping it
Why? Xians are the biggest customers of porn. You would all have to go underground.
“invasions of other lands to conquer for their god. ”
~that was the Jews taking the land that God had promised them with the help of God
Bullshit. You are too young and too ignorant yet to even understand international affairs and reasons for why governments invade other lands. Most of the god believing nations think they have their imaginary friend to guide them.
“Do you think it is murder to ignore those children and do nothing to help feed them? ”
~yes which is why our school goes on a mission trip every year to meet these people’s needs and share the gospel with them
Oh, that really fucking helps! A baby mission trip…pat yourself on your back till your arm breaks for that! That is a horrible thing to go help people with an ulterior motive. No need to share the gospel, just give them some fucking food and water. Your little mission trips do nothing to help the masses. And your “gospel” is only spreading oppression. You are using the poor for your own sky daddy beliefs that you will get some kind of brownie points in an imaginary afterlife.
“and what does he do when he gets pissed off? He kills things!”
~this statement alone shows how little you know about God.
It’s in your Bible…the entire Old Testament. Read it. I doubt you have.
bLAH blah blah blah blah
Don’t bother coming back here anymore with your self-righteousness. You need to stay in school. Learn real biology and science, learn about world mythologies, other cultures, history, astronomy, anthropology and a whole lot of other subjects WITHOUT YOUR XIAN INFLUENCE and then you can come back here and maybe discuss intelligently instead of simply spitting out the crap they feed into your little brain.
Bye
22 March 2009, on 4:47 am
Not my righteousness. My righteousness is a filthy rag.
From the Moderator – Then why to you go around exhibiting it on atheist blogs?
I will proclaim the truth were I see it needed to be proclaimed.
How do you know what is the truth? Where does this truth comes from? Faulty humans who need saving from something? Ignorant pastors who have not much more than a highschool education? How do you prove this “truth” (First you must describe it (god) and have more backup than an ancient, inconsistent book written by flawed humans)?
I will only apologize if I am wrong.
Better start now then, because the odds are against you. You don’t even know if you are right or wrong, but go around saying you are proclaiming something to be true. Priceless.
If the truth hurts then it should show you that something is wrong.
Again, what truth? What are you talking about “truth” ? You are in the 9th grade and have researched and studied nothing on your own. What is this great “truth”? That you have an imaginary friend you want us to believe in who you believe is some zombie back from the dead? It’s the stupidity of this belief that hurts!
I will come back when I can and I will speak.
Who are you, Ghandi? Come back only if you have proof of the existence of your god.
I look weak don’t I?
No, you just look dumb. Before going around professing your beliefs, you should be ready to back them up. That was pretty stupid. Maybe in all your seeking you will see the light that your god is not there and come back here and tell us that.
Well when I am weak it shows just how strong God really is.
LOLOL Too funny. You cannot even prove this god exists. You cannot explain him, or show him or tell us where this god lives. This is just another made-up romanticized statement made up by your church people.
Our school does our best. We only have about 400 people(preschool to seniors) If you think that they need help then why don’t you feed a village for a year. Or a month even. Then you will see just how much it costs.
It’s a good thing to attempt to feed the hungry, but the strings attached of trying to force your worldview on them and to try to change them shows your only doing it for your own self-interest. If you were doing it for them, you would simply go feed them, and not have to force your magical beliefs on them. That is simply selfish.
Your sites still didn’t explain why Darwin said that his own theory was preposterous.
That is taken totally out of context. Lots of times ideas seem preposterous before significant research gets underway. And scientists since Darwin have proved that his theory is not so preposterous after all. READ TALK ORIGINS .COM DAMMIT! How many times do I have to tell you? What are YOU afraid of? Finding out that your church people were feeding you a line of bullcrap just to control you?
No, I am not a good speller.
There is a thing called spell-checker on every computer, and online dictionaries. Just goes to show that you reject taking the initiative for yourself to look things up…like not researching your stuff before coming to discussion groups.
It may fall upon me to disprove evolution, but it falls upon you to disprove the existence of God.
It does not fall upon you to disprove evolution. It is up to scientists to prove it…the ones making the claims, and they have quite well over the centuries, though they have much experimentation and research left in the future. They will not just say “evolution is this” and make shit up like god folks do about their imaginary friend.
It is NOT up to us to disprove the existence of God. YOU all are the ones making the claim and so it should be quite easy for you to come up with some verifiable evidence for your claims if you KNOW this to be true that a god exists. It’s not up to the person not believing it. It would be like be saying I have a pot of gold leprechans left in my back yard. I would have to go dig up that pot and show it to you. Same with your god.
I will get all the knowledge I can get so that I can share it with the world. I will speak even if I won’t be heard.
Once again you are acting self-righteous…which your own Bible warns about. You are going to be the next Jesus? Ghandi? Einstein?
Where will this knowledge come from? How will you find this knowledge of your god? He isn’t around to even contemplate. Only what people tell you, like old Indian tales of the great spirits and whatnot. Folklore. And will you get all the other knowledge of subjects you are told is wrong, like evolution? Will you actually study it for yourself to find out, with an open mind? We all don’t stay the same, that is what evolution is. IT does NOT mean we came from monkeys, but even humans have changed over time…and migration, food supplies etc produced humans with different skin colors and features, etc. That is what we are talking about. Evolution is NOT evil.
“Xians are the biggest customers of porn.”
–Prove that.
Here you go. Read the news links of the research done. And just take a look at the adult sex stores and porn shops that permeate the southern Bible Belt.
“And your “gospel” is only spreading oppression. You are using the poor for your own sky daddy beliefs that you will get some kind of brownie points in an imaginary afterlife.”
– How is it spreading oppression?
Because you are not free to do what you so choose. Your religious leaders control you and most of them don’t have a brain even the size of a pea. You are telling people to become sheeple, to not think for themselves, that they must come and become brainwashed to all believe the same thing…like Star Trek’s Borg society. No one thinking for themselves, just let this god do it for you. And when you die you can go to this afterlife which is simply a place to kiss the ass of this god 24/7. That is oppression…slavery.
Another reason it is oppression is because these religious leaders are relying on you to pay for their homes, cars, food, etc so they dont have to go out and get a real job in life. They are living off their sheeple.
It seems to me that you are just as oppressive(or more) than us.
How? Because I can get up and listen to the bird’s sing on Sunday morning and don’t have to go to a mythology temple on Sunday morning to hear some fat, stupid dude tell me that I am a bad person when I am not? I am able to think for myself to help others, etc and not be told everything I should and should not do? That I am able to figure that out for myself?
You would be glad if the new proposal to take pastors off the air waves became a law wouldn’t you?
No, they have a right to free speech no matter how stupid it is. And there is no such proposal. They are lying to you to keep you in persecution mode. Christians love to feel sorry for themselves and make themselves out to be victims even when they are not.
I have to wonder if your heart is so hardened against God that if I were to show you God himself(not proposing it) that you would still say that God was not real.
Can’t harden your heart against something that does not exist. It’s as ridiculous as saying that I have hardened my heart against Zeus, Loki, Ra, and all the other zillion gods because I don’t believe in them. Have you hardened your heart against Ra?
–For someone to accept Christ and turn from their own ways is our goal. not to get “brownie points”
Yes, most of you look at it that way. You feel so good about yourselves. I have been an evangelical xian in the past. You get a rush of self-importance.
“Bullshit. You are too young and too ignorant yet to even understand international affairs and reasons for why governments invade other lands.”
–I am not talking about now. I am talking about the early Bible days.
You do not even understand that, in a historical sense. Have you read the Bible all the way through and taken even all of the ancient history courses of the Middle East at a neutral and unbiased college? No, you haven’t…therefore you do not know anything about international affairs and the political actions of other nations past, present or future intentions.
““and what does he do when he gets pissed off? He kills things!”
~this statement alone shows how little you know about God.
Again, you do not know your own Bible. None of it. If your god was not like this, why did he create a son to have tortured and murdered because he was pissed off at his own flawed creations? The god of the bible gets pissed off because he is unhappy with the way he made things. Period.
It’s in your Bible…the entire Old Testament. Read it. I doubt you have.”
– I am almost done.
And if you really read it you should be able to figure out the inconsistencies…who are you relying on for interpretation of those texts? Some brainwashing center? Another person who is making up all the answers just like all the other god believers? Do you ever think for yourself?
Rest of comment deleted
No witnessing allowed…read the comment policy!
Now, go in peace with an open mind and LEARN in unbiased and accredited institutions of higher education. IF you want to be truly intelligent and free leave the brainwashing centers where the fat, ignorant men speak, tricking you to think they are saying something important when they are not. They are brainwashing you into thinking you are a bad person. They keep you there with guilt of a bloody story as horrible as any found in Greek mythology, and you sheeple all fall for it because of the promise of some glorious afterlife that will not come. Everything dies. Nothing in this universe lasts forever, and that is what people cannot cope with, and why they invent gods and tales of afterlife in order to cope. If you need that, that is your right to believe it, but not your right to come try to force those beliefs on other people.
You are done here. The horse is dead. As the title of the post says…this is a tired, tired tired old circular debate with god believers.
26 March 2009, on 8:02 pm
You are done here.
~No I am NOT! I will be done when I lead you to Christ.
From the Moderators: You are simply trolling. You cannot lead us to what does not exist. Go get an education. Your comments will automatically be sent to spam. Have a nice life.
( IF your god exists . . . which we do not believe . . . he is pretty pathetic to need to try to use little idiots like yourself to deliver his messages to people. This god cannot even speak for himself…just like any other imaginary friend. Bye bye)