Atheist believes Africa needs God
26 December 2008 by Stardust
Here’s something I thought would be interesting to discuss and hear your viewpoints on this story published today at Times Online.
Considering the recent murdering of people for committing witchcraft, I don’t think I can agree with confirmed atheist, Matthew Parris who says:
Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.
I cannot see how instilling delusion in people to replace disillusionment can be a good thing. Consider the Cargo Cults that were formed when missionaries brought their religion into the culture and traditions of various tribes of people. This doesn’t usually mix very well.
While I agree that religious missionaries do much good in the way they bring hospitals and schools, I loathe the catch that goes along with accepting their help. It’s not a no-strings-attached deal. In return for health care and education, they must learn about and accept to believe in the magical sky daddy and to depend on magical incantations to make their lives better when in fact they should be learning to believe in themselves. Just getting the help they need with health and education the same results would transpire.
Parris disagrees and believe that the only way to rescue Africa and bring them into the 21st century is to teach them to believe in lies and an imaginary Sky Boss. It will be interesting to hear what you all think about this.
Then right next to this article are links to this story,
Congo’s maverick warlord who kills in the name of Christianity
and this:
British missionaries plead guilty to sedition in Gambia
26 December 2008, on 9:01 pm
Once in the middle of an 18hr drinking spree I called one of the christian networks that was running commercials non-stop during the holidays. I still believe my point stands, but maybe I shouldn’t had tried to make that point after a bottle of Sambuca and twelve Guiness. Anyway, I tried to get the nice girl on the phone to explain why we couldn’t just help these people instead of shoving an alien religion down their throats. I tried to explain how helping them and letting them form their own opinions and keep their own beliefs was a truly good thing. Instead of telling them that had to get on board with the big guy in the sky in order to receive aid. This may have led to an interesting debate, had not every other word been, fuck, hell, and god damn. My friends in the room however thought that I was doing good work. I suppose that’s all that matters.
26 December 2008, on 11:34 pm
I agree with you, Stardust. I’ll go further and say missionaries do more harm than good, sometimes radically more. Religion can make good people commit tragically immense wrongs; like refusing to distribute condoms in AIDS-ravaged regions. Some even go so far as to spread disinformation and lies about condom use. The missionaries mean well, of course. They are simply doing what they believe pleases their capriciously authoritarian sky-daddy.
That the world might be better off without their misguided help never occurs to them.
26 December 2008, on 11:40 pm
If you read the comments at the end of the article, god believers are praising Parris (of course), and there are some atheists who disagree and then a couple who say he has “nailed it”…yeah…nailed their ability to reason for themselves into an imaginary coffin.
What you say about the condoms is an excellent point, Bruce. It’s like putting a gun to these people’s heads and slowly pulling the trigger while they haven’t a clue of what is going on and they trust their newfound “friends”.
26 December 2008, on 11:43 pm
Oops our atheist seems to have been hitting the bottle rather hard me suspectuth, the rebirth is real, WHAT THE?????……that sounds suspiciously like Xian talk, no atheist would ever make a statement that stupid, Matthew is clearly a Xian in sheeps clothing, damn those sneaky Xian undercover atheist operatives they will stop at nothing to perpetrate their evil sky daddy agenda, Africa needs the capitalist Xian Tards like it needs bubonic plague, and even his name Matthew, that’s a dead give away, come on Matty Fess up, your a preacher right and you wanna go to Africa so you can fuck hot African chicks, …..I knew it…..
27 December 2008, on 12:00 am
no atheist would ever make a statement that stupid, Matthew is clearly a Xian in sheeps clothing
That’s also what I suspected. Or if he really thinks he is an atheist, he is one of those who will running back to the arms of his imaginary friend when he gets older.
27 December 2008, on 2:45 am
The good ol mission trip. I remember from church, whenever some one would get ready to go on a mission trip, lol! Seriously talk about a good way to get attention for your self. They’d get up in front of the congregation after the sermon and give a 5 minute plug/beg for money session. Then the pastor would pray for them in front of everyone. Then you’d hear about how christlike and how wonderful this person was for going on the trip.
They finally leave for Zimbabwe or wherever the fuck, and of course they have a blog for the folks back home. Then after they get back they tell of all the “miracles” they saw and blah blah blah. Basically, if you want lots of attention, maybe get a taste of the holy cash money, go on a mission trip!
Africa really is a freaking mess and I don’t really have any suggestions, but I’m certain that converting them to christianity isn’t going to make their country any better. All mission trips do is give the missionaries a big huge warm fuzzy (maybe a boner?) knowing that they were doin’ the lawds work a-prayin’ and a-healin’ for da baby jeezus…
27 December 2008, on 3:15 am
Hey there Trav, you got it in one with the boner, from what I’ve heard there seems to be a penchant for missionaries getting it on with the poor morally corrupt local girls who need saving for the loooooooorrrrrrrd, capitalism is where the problems come from, not the local witch doctor, ah missionaries, who needs em…..
27 December 2008, on 5:49 am
Well in keeping with the missionary zeal I too have been on a missionary trip to Christianblog.com, fuck going back to Africa, our friendly Xian blogger Chris who we all love and respect, wink wink, inspired me, there I’m known as soopa and I can only suggest others visit and be my friends, wink wink, ah the life of a missionary, I feel all warm and content knowing that I’ve helped them there and it’s all due to Chris who we love and respect wink wink…………………………………
27 December 2008, on 8:25 am
Ha ha nice, I’m already thinking of my login name, maybe Unworthy22, or Godssheep…
…nothing like xian blogs, with all of the logical fallacies and grammar mistakes, lol!
27 December 2008, on 10:30 am
I have an idea. Give them hospitals and schools and teach them secular humanism. That way they can learn to reject their own superstitious bullshit as well.
27 December 2008, on 12:19 pm
It would be funny if one of the Christian commenters wrote “Right on Matthew Parris! However, it’s too bad you’re going to burn in hell when you die!”
27 December 2008, on 5:32 pm
There are bad missionaries out there for sure. But There are many more giving foreign assitance of all beliefs that don’t force anything on anybody and simply want to help someone out. The people who mess up foreign cultures most are the ones who think everything about America is better for another country (Capitalism, Democracy and the smalltown ethic, etc) They don’t value the foreign culture as it has advanced because they may not have a town square and a barber shop when they may be quite advanced in other ways. So I, for one, will tend to find less wrong with someone bringing food and rebuilding structures and providing safe places to learn (multi-cultural and multi philosophical concepts) than someone sitting back and explaining how they got it wrong and how the extreme factions make assistance a “not worthwhile cause. The missionaries who are doing the wrong deserve whatever they get, but that is no logic for stopping assistance or badmouthing those who may be doing it right.
27 December 2008, on 5:32 pm
I guess that makes me like Matthew?
27 December 2008, on 7:57 pm
There are bad missionaries out there for sure. But There are many more giving foreign assitance of all beliefs that don’t force anything on anybody and simply want to help someone out.
Sorry Chris, I don’t buy it. If they truly wanted to help someone out with no strings attached, they would help and let the people keep their tradition and their own beliefs and not even bring that into the picture. If I help someone after a hurricane, tornado, or some other disaster I do not stop and make sure they know the atheist viewpoint before or during the time I am helping them. A person’s religion is irrelevant. But to a Christian missionary that is the main reason for them going someplace to help to begin with. It is the ultimate reason. Any religious person who says otherwise is lying.
As for you being like Matthew Parris, Chris…there is a slight difference. While you admit you are a Christian, I suspect Parris is a Christian pretending to be an atheist.
27 December 2008, on 11:28 pm
^ Very nice…Yeoman-like…”Holiday carpentry work”, Stardust!
["Nailing it" , that is.]
Or is it:
“YO!…(wo)man”?
28 December 2008, on 12:07 am
Damn I was sure chris who we love and respect wink wink said he was leaving and never ever coming back, like a fart that creeps up on you whammo he’s back again, poooooh wee, and chris chris chris, my little Xian fiend, you are an overt Xian Tard where as Matty is a Covert Xian Tard, so essentially yes you are the same but different, hey that’s bible talk, I’ll beat myself up later for that, so you are a pair of Tards, that’s so sweet, hey you could give him a call and the pair of you can become misionaries in Africa…….and Stardust mate, your almost messiah like with your tolerant words for chris who we all love and respect wink wink, smell that I think Chris may be lurking in the passage, Chris is that you in the passage????????…………………….
28 December 2008, on 2:18 am
Hoffy,
Do you have anything to say about the subject of missionary work or do you just hurl insults in conversation. Just curious. I managed to keep it to the topic this time without “Testifyin’”
28 December 2008, on 2:32 am
Stardust,
while I admit there are a large group of missionaries who go over to other cultures with the specific agenda you are mentioning. I know from experience there are many Christians who just consider it the correct and compassionate thing to do without REQUIRING or even bringing up the prospect of accepting the existance of the Lord. Everyone on this planet deserves to have a life free from fear of hunger or oppression,etc. wether they believe in God or not. If Christians hold this over the head of another culture or person in order to get assistance they are not consistent with the teachings of Christianity. The crusades would be the ultimate example of misguided people who happened to be Christians.(not holding back assistance but Killing those who didn’t submit). This is a flawed people not a flawed philosophy.
You may be correct on your Matthew comment.
28 December 2008, on 11:19 am
Chris god botherer (We have another atheist Chris reader so need to keep you separate so people don’t think our friend has done something crazy and “found Jeebus”.)
If one is a Xian, Chris, there is always the thought in the mind of that Xian that they can convert the ones they are helping to bring them to their own version of the Christian god myth. It is mostly the reason they are going…the “calling”. While there may be genuine concern for the ones they are helping, they also have that hope that they can “bring them to Christ”.
I am glad we agree on that. And no one is denying that many religious groups do help with those things. But totally overcoming oppression does not mean making people mentally oppressed by themselves by telling themselves that they must obey some imaginary man in another dimension. The religion aspect is not necessary.
But that is how they make those people feel whether they do it in subtle niceties, they always bring in the “we must be thankful to our imaginary friend” and get them to believe out of guilt, or a feeling of indebtedness.
I agree that the crusades are examples of “misguided people” as were the witch hunts, Inquistion, and others horrific events in human history where people used religion to harm and control others. And there are many who would do it today if we did not have laws protecting people from those who would use Christianity or any religion to harm and oppress others. There are Christians right here in this land who would join in witch burnings, lynchings of gays and all that horrific stuff if there weren’t LAWS protecting citizens from that sort of thing. Read some of the other articles about the harm that Christianity is doing in Africa…encouraging people to be accused and “brought to justice” via murders and killings on unproven accusations. Fear of those who are different.
I think I might just be. Hopefully you would not resort to such devious and deceitful tactics.
28 December 2008, on 11:23 am
understood on the God botherer label:)
28 December 2008, on 11:34 am
Stardust mate, your almost messiah like with your tolerant words for chris who we all love and respect wink wink, smell that I think Chris may be lurking in the passage, Chris is that you in the passage????????…………………….
Hoffy, I know from experience when people spend time commenting on a site called God is for Suckers after being asshatted and called all sorts of things that they may be questioning their own “faith” and are fascinated by those of us who were once Xians, or who were never Xians and are doing just fine without it and are interested in what we write here (despite the “profanity”). So, maybe if Chris keeps commenting on the topics at hand, we can bring him to the “light of reason”.
28 December 2008, on 11:39 am
I guess part of the problem comes from the fact that we tend to see what supports our belief system (Me included). The fact is that you are correct that there are many Christians out there forcing their beliefs on othrers and you are collecting those encounters and I am collecting the encounters of those simple “good deed doers” (to use the wizard of Oz description). I would only float the idea that my experience shows me that it is the Christians and not the Christianity that causes this. All the way to the point of 1 Good Christian out of 100,000 bad ones. Those 100,000 would be, bastardizing an otherwise benevolent concept. This would make Christianity a volatile and dangersorous belief system but not “BAD”.
28 December 2008, on 12:34 pm
Christian Chris, Have you read your Bible lately? What is the first thing missionaries do? Hand these folks a Bible and when you read your Bible it is full of violence and all sorts of passages to justify anything that anyone wants to, good or bad. Your god, from a neutral perspective, is a pretty evil dude. As evil and hateful as many of the gods of other ancient mythologies. He is as bad as Kronus who eats his offspring.
Now in many parts of Africa, the Bible is being used to support burning of witches. It can be used to justify killing homosexuals, stoning to death of adulterers or those involved in premarital sex. .
Like I said, read your Bible.
Christianity is bad, if you really understand it.
28 December 2008, on 2:18 pm
Clearly the Bible does not (as a body) condone or encourage oppression or acts of evil upon another. Many Christians (and Atheists) have taken parts and twisted them to serve theor own agenda but the Bible, especially the New Tetstament refers to NOT judging others, turning the other cheek and putting self behind others. A balancing of humanity rather than (as Nietzsche would say) leaving the strong to assert their force on the weak and letting the weak perish.
Where is Nietzsche hen we need to hear from him/her?
No matter how much you speak of the evil and atrocity in the Bible it does not make it so.
I admit if you showed up at a Christian mission trip and started assisting the needy, the Christians would be upset with you speaking about “there not being a God” ……but they would be wrong to do so. If your hands were engaged in assisting the needy, then your opinions should be respected. I would foster a situation that focused on “helping out” primarily. Then upon getting to know me and you they can learn about our views and come to their own conclussions. Would I ant them to agree with me? Yes. And you would want them to agree with you. That would not be evil on either of our parts. And this is the important thing from my standpoint. If they chose Atheism having met us both and seeing how we each functioned in our worlds……I would lose no respect for them and harbor no feelings of superiority. It is my job to live and interact and “share” my feelings and concepts. Not to require submission in order to retain relationships on this Earth.
OK….hit me Hoffy. “Listen to that sickening delusional clap-trap.” (Well, if it’s delusional I have managed to apply it and enjoy an awful lot of diverse peoples company so far on this Planet. Oh yes……and I smell)
28 December 2008, on 2:40 pm
To give you some background on why I may be a more tolerant Christian. I am a percussionist who has spent a good deal of his early education performing pieces many of which were written by composers with atheist views and other diverse world philosophies. I found them compelling compositions so how can I discount their contribution to the world just because I disagreed with their philosophical views. I just would be limiting myself to deny interaction. Also it is unlikely I would meet any of these individuals to “convert” them so that motivation is not there.
I also (being in percussion) have been injected into other cultures such as African cultures, Eastern, etc and have fallen in love with many of the aspects of their religions) I see some beauty in these cultures even though I believe different things than they believe. As a Christian, total enlightenment DOES NOT HAVE TO COME IN MY LIFETIME. This is a view that many Evangelists and other Christians don’t realize they believe. If they would just (as the Beatles say) Let It Be, no one need be transgressed upon.
28 December 2008, on 6:00 pm
Matthew Parris has his pen up his ass if he thinks Christianity is the secret to improving living conditions and society in Africa. He seems to be completely ignorant of the fact that the majority of Africa’s population is already Christian and has been for a long time.
Has the fact that Rwanda’s primarily Roman Catholic population (indeed 93% of its population believes in Christian dogma) did absolutely nothing to prevent the genocide of the Tutsi population? Worse yet they were actively involved in the slaughter. Who the hell does he think pulled off such a mass murder? Rwandan NUNS, for fuck sake, were convicted of assisting in the genocide! A Seventh-Day Adventist pastor was one of the leaders. Finally the Roman Catholic church never condemned the genocide.
Africa has been exploited by Christian nations for centuries. It’s poverty is largely the result of the raping of the planet by Christian nations.
The last thing the world needs is an “atheist” like this around polluting the minds of people with ludicrous ideas about the ability of the Christian mythology to transform hearts towards empathy and humanitarianism.
28 December 2008, on 6:55 pm
“Clearly the Bible does not (as a body) condone or encourage oppression or acts of evil upon another. ”
This made my head explode. Luckily I was able to gather all the pieces together and rebuild it. Then I typed this post and read the above quote and it exploded again. BRB…
28 December 2008, on 7:11 pm
Am I incorrect in the passages that have to do with turn the other cheek…….. and…… thou shalt not kill….For God so loved the world that he gave his only son…. etc.?
I mean, you may find some passages that confuse you with regard to this but….CLEARLY….. it is there??????
28 December 2008, on 7:47 pm
Rich, Chris’s comment also baffles me as to how Xians cannot know their own Bible. The problem with the Bible is that it DOES condone and encourage oppression and evil acts upon another, and their own god of this religion commits or orders these oppressive and evil acts (killing babies, smart-mouthed teenagers, adulterers, genecide, etc.) Obviously Chris is a typical Xian in the way he does not read what we write, does not read and know what his own Bible says. If the Bible can be cherry-picked to condone so much evil, then it is not a book that should be distributed to people who know nothing of this religion.
Chris the persisten Xian writes “No matter how much you speak of the evil and atrocity in the Bible it does not make it so.” I don’t have to make it so, it says it for itself on the pages of your dusty ancient text that you proclaim to be the “inspired” word of your god. It’s like people cherishing a book that was written by a mob boss.
28 December 2008, on 7:51 pm
The “for god so love the world that he slaughtered his only son” crap is violent, evil, gruesome. You toss in a couple of “thou shalt not kill” and then another passage says “there is a time to kill”. Your Bible is the most contradictory and inconsistent piece of fiction ever written.
No, it is not. And is why it is dangerous to pass these books out to uneducated, illiterate people. They will cherry pick just like they are brainwashed to. We are not confused by the passages, we are pointing out that the Bible is a smorgasbord of passages to justify anything a person chooses. Evil, or good or just plan passive.
28 December 2008, on 7:56 pm
I hear you aluding to quotations but I don’t hear any specific examples. Can you give me an example. Surprisingly, I have read the Bible and while I haven’t memorized it cover to cover like many Christians who believe that is the object, I have not come to my conclusions without reading it and analyzing it. I can see where you might not be able to conclude there is a God from reading it. But how can you come to the conclusion that the passages are telling Christians to go out and kill, etc. without twisting meaning. Again…we see what we want to see. So once you are passed this point it is a matter of what do you want to see?
28 December 2008, on 10:00 pm
There are many examples of “Bad God” stuff in your Bible. And if humans are supposed to be following God’s examples, it is understandable that they might become confused as whether to follow bad god of the OT, or good Jeebus of the NT…and WTF about Revelations? You can analyze it till the cows come home, and Xians do, and even Xians cannot come to some consensus as to what the fuck the Bible means. You pick what you want, make excuses and imaginings about why the bad stuff. You make up your interpretation as you go along. So, once you are understanding that your mythology book is a jumbled mess of good and evil, and a whole variety of inconsistencies and contradictions, then you might be able to see for yourself. But as long as you keep the Xian blindfolds on your reason and rational thinking, you will not know what we are talking about. Try Skeptics Annotated Bible for starters. The link is in our sidebar.
28 December 2008, on 11:53 pm
Ok. Now we have some examples. Let me start with the “a time to kill line. This comes from a passage in ecclesiastes dedicated to explaining the concept that everything has a place UNDER the heavens. God does not SAY that HE will kill or that he wants MAN to kill. He can be viewed as commenting on an existing situation in the world. Yes he allows it to exist but…..there would be no value to a situation in which he simply stepped in and kept us from “being” and “experiencing” (yes pain is in there with existence ). Now, atheist can chime in here with the idea that this is a very convenient set up; for man to do all the work and the big invisible man in the sky to be hands off. This could be the same if there were no God up there at all!True, and if this were all I based my decision on I would be doing so without cause. So we have at LEAST a contextual issue here that is No stretch at all to see how I would not take this to mean God is violent and wants it to exist this way. It simply…must.
If the genocide comment is referencing the children of the Jews and the Pharoh, I would have to say that this again was man’s act against man and is again bound by the set up I have previously stated. I understand that this is not evidence to contradict anything you are asserting. It simply helps me understand the foundation behind are seperate views on the text.
Let me go a different route for a second. If the Bible never existed and we looked at the “book of man” over the history that exist to date, You would have to be decrying man himself for his atrocities in this blog. Christianity would not exist and let me tell you. Man on his own would AT LEAST have done damage to his fellow man and you would,by your argument have to turn your anger on “the book of man” so……..is it that these bastards that kill in the name of Christ are “Christians” or is it that they are “Man” using their Christianity as a weapon? If there had been no Christianity, could you not be blogging about the same entities crossing over to Uganda and raping in the name of…….themselves?
That’s enough for now. But keep it comin’
29 December 2008, on 12:32 am
I just noticed another comment in your response. The comment : “Your Bible is the most contradictory and inconsistent piece of fiction ever written.” Actually when you apply the rigorous standards set to historical documents to determine their credibility.(this includes redundancies/relation of printed version to actual time of event occurrence/ coroberating parties / unbiased parties involved in transmitting information/and there are more) The bible is far and away the most reliable historical document in the world archive of documents. We except most of our recorded history as fact ith far less substantiating material. I know you may come up with the whole conspiracy theory here but this same information just makes that sound silly. And I am not coming up with an “ad-lib” theory here. Lets also throw Einstein in there as a thinking man dealing with matter and complexities in science to speak for our cause.
29 December 2008, on 1:15 am
Chris I am just sick to deathof hearing the same old cliche’s the same old anachronistic rantings, I don’t have anymore compassion left in me for liars and charlatans, you can come here and be Mr goody two shoes till the cows come home but your still just a liar plain and simple, your god belief is nothing but a psychological illness, I can say in all honesty I do not never have and never will HATE anybody, we are all doing our best EVEN YOU MATE but I detest LIARS they are the worlds great problem, NO ONE absolutely NO ONE chris has ever shown or even remotely proved that any form of higher power exists and if they do make that claim their a god damn mother fuckin liar to use a well worn phrase, sorry Chris I have no time for your bullshit, go and lead a real life mate, come here to OZ I’ve got a heap of work you can do, thats your problem you live in a fantasy world GROW UP mate……………………………….
29 December 2008, on 1:19 am
I am not here to prove Gods existance to you. So I am not even sure about the”liar” comment. I have stated only those thoings I have drawn from resources. I have commented on passages I have read and applied them to contxt. Can you specify what you say I “lied” about?
29 December 2008, on 1:21 am
To quote Mont Python……..”Is there anyone else up there I can talk to?”
29 December 2008, on 1:30 am
Proof of Gods existance is not the issue here.(immediately) I was speaking of the notion that missionaries are somehow charged by God to go out and kill, rape and (to use a local term ) yada yada yada. I don’t see that. So I was referencing these so called violent or hateful passages. I would say that if the Bible told of a mgical land in which no one ever was harmed and all men were good to one another and that lasted up until 36 A.D. and “Poof” now we are here today. This would be inconsistent with the reality we know. So the Bible is reflecting the good, the bad and everything inbetween just the way any book of account would do. These events (wars / displacements / births of cultures, etc) all happened and writing a sugar coated revisionist history won’t change what happened.) That doesn’t mean Christians are called to kill, rape and yada yada yada.
29 December 2008, on 1:27 pm
There you go providing your very own made up explanation for the contradiction. You haven’t even proven there is a god, but are saying what this god means –making up your human meanings for a book written by multiple HUMAN authors. And you all spend so much time in Babble studies because you are trying to understand it . . . and you go around trying to explain it to others when you can’t figure it out for yourselves. Making the explanations up as you go, to suit your own purposes. It’s a jumbled mess…the Bible. It’s like taking many books at random and cramming them all in one journal without any rhyme or reason.
This is total crap. You again are doing like all other Xians do and making excuses for your god not being around in bad times. What possible “value” could there be to a situation of child molestation and murder, childhood cancer and death, babies born with no brains, stillbirths after full term pregnancy, etc. Yes, there is pain with existence because SHIT HAPPENS in the natural world. That’s life. And cannot be explained away with god bullshit. It’s why bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people…because that’s life. No Puppetmaster is pulling the strings and allowing a fat bastard billionaire to live in the lap of luxury while a tiny skeletal child in Africa cannot find a morsel of food. You cannot explain that way with a god. Maybe to the gullible sheeple you can, but there are some of us, many of us who understand that life is shit sometimes. For some life is a nightmare, and others a dream. One of our pastors when I was a Xian used to say the idiotic phrase “Life’s not fair, but god is good.” WTF? What nonsense. There is no “fair and unfair” when a god isn’t involved. It’s just a circumstance of where someone lives, the environment he or she lives in, what a person has, how corrupt the government is and all sorts of factors. NO magical god is involved. And lets’ say a god exists and sits back and does nothing to help starving children or priests from molesting little boys. That would make him powerless…or a sick voyeuristic bastard.
Yep, like I said, this god would be powerless, or an evil sick bastard. Not worthy of worship but our disgust. This god goes against all HUMAN morals and ethics.
There is no god “up there” at all…up where? Another dimension? Where is this other dimension? Let’s go back and start with that. Where is this god, what does he look like, what is he composed of. Then where is “up there”? Where is it located? What evidence do you have that “up there” exists? “Up there” for we atheists is that there is outer space, the universe and in all the hundreds of thousands of years of stargazing no god has shown himself. Not a trace.
It’s because you’ve been brainwashed. You choose to believe what you believe about this god. But if you really read the Bible in a neutral manner, as an outsider, you will see that this god is an asshole. He must ultimately appease himself by killing something, his own son that was conceived when he raped a virgin. If humans behave in such a manner they are jailed and executed.
But it says in your mythology book that your god ordered these killings. He sent plagues, death to innocent. Instead of killing Pharoah he kills a lot of innocent babies, including the Pharoah’s son. Killing innocent people and children, and infants is acceptable? If your children disobey you, then it would be warranted for you to kill them? If a country annoys us it’s okay to invade and kill everyone there who gets in the line of fire? That is what the god of Xian mythology does. Randomly kills whatever annoys him…and not simply taking care of the person or persons who are responsible, but an entire population…and like in Noah’s Flo0d..he kills every person not on the ark, but allows pervert Noah to live, one who gets drunk and shows his naked self to his sons. That is another story inconsistent with the fluffy puffy ideas Xians like to make up about their “loving and just” god.
So, people in Africa, reading this awful book, run across some terrible stories, and they can take bits out of this book without reading others and use them against people. It is this reason why the Bible should not be distributed.
I am not interested in getting into more babble study with you. You can do that on your own time. I have had years of reading and listening to people attempting to make sense of it. Making up justifications for the contradictions, saying we are not interpreting the “whole book” correctly when we point out that this god is evil and unjust. You Xians work so hard to make sense of this crazy mythology, you work so hard to find justification for the bad shit it contains all because you cling to the myth. You want to believe you will live forever. And if you do away with your mythology book, and the myth itself, you become “mortal” and you can’t handle that. Most people cannot deal with the idea of their own mortality, and it is quite sad we cannot, but there are some of us who while we are quite sad we only have a short time of existence, we are not going to cling to some weirdass religion to try to mentally cope with the truth, reality.
And we already do decry humans for their atrocities on this blog…if you have actually read it in depth. Because we do not believe in god/gods/goddesses. Human beings are responsible for it all, in reality. No puppetmaster. Only human action. And some of that human action is atrocious. And many of these people commit these atrocious acts believing that it is the will of their supernatural imaginary friend. That is the most dangerous…when they make a whole population believe that their corruption, their wars, their evilness is the desire of this god they are brainwashed to believe in.
“Keep it coming”? No. I, for one, am no longer playing games with you. I suggest you really take a close look at your religion and all that you believe. Including that dreadful mythology book you try to justify as some sort of guidebook for life. A book that most of you Xians cannot agree on amongst yourselves.
Because you cannot. We already know that. It’s a matter of “faith” like belief in Santa Claus. To a child Santa is very, very real. So is Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and the imaginary friends many children invent for themselves. God belief is just a continuation of imaginary friend belief for adults.
You lie when you make shit up about your Bible and religion, via your own interpretations. You lie when you say a god exists without one shred of evidence to back it up.
29 December 2008, on 2:23 pm
Moderator says (in bold type throughout): You are rocking with yourself, because this is turning into a circular bullshit session where you Xians delude yourselves that you are getting somewhere.
As to me “making up” my own explanations, I am not “stretching” the words given.
You are making shit up or repeating something someone else made up. This god never speaks for himself, only messages being passed on from human to human. And yes, you stretch the stories, bend and twist, make them whatever you want them to be.
You yourself said to “read the Bible”
With an open mind, neutral and maybe you will see just how absurd much of it is. The inconsistencies, the truth that it is only another made up mythology by imaginative humans.
If the government can draft a document as complex as the constitution that can require “interpretation”
The Bible is not the Constitution. The Constitution is a set of laws, a legal document. The Bible is a mythology book. One is Political Science, the other is THEOLOGY. Two totally different things. Physics = Science. Religion and god beliefs = THEOLOGY. Please stop mixing them together.
and even Physics manuals can require “interpretation”
Scientists base their manuals on collected evidence. They are open to change depending on what new evidence is found. That does not happen with this god belief of yours. It’s simply a matter of faith in an imaginary friend.
why do you act as if the simple act of reading a passage, which follows a logic
Bwahhhhaaaaa! Logic in the Bible? Bwahhaaaaa! I almost choked on my coffee!
that is not, I might add, as easily interpreted to mean “I will kill you” or “fear death from my hand!” as it is to mean there is an association between these concepts and items mentioned. So as to being convenient here, I am afraid you are conveniently looking for the word “Kill” and “Death” and using them to give a narrow view of the possible meanings.
You can interpret it any way you want, but my point is that ignorant people are able to use that book to justify anything they choose. And many people will follow along with it. This is why it is a very dangerous mythology book. You are just not getting it because you haven’t done what I asked and go back and read your mythology book from cover to cover with an open mind…neutral perspective. And not what some apologist tells you it must mean, or other “scholars” of the bible who think their interpretation is true while others believers think they are full of shit and “confused”. You are all confused and then you come and try to get us to join in your confusion, in your endless sessions of “Bible Study” where you try to figure out the frickin’ shit that it says. Making up endless meanings to the contradictions and inconsistencies.
It is becoming clear to me as we continue that really, your central issue is the proving of a God with imperical Earthly data
It is becoming clear to me that you are trying to edge in the “witnessing” bullshit. Our “central issue” here is watchdogging the Religious Right and keeping them at bay, and making fun of believers everywhere is just a little bit of added enjoyment here on our site. Intelligent Xians know that they cannot prove that this god exists. It’s a matter of “faith” in your imaginary friend.
and the other bothers you more as an adjuct bit of, to use the atheist terminology “dis- information.”
No, you bother us with the way you are trying to wiggle in your “witnessing”.
I know I can’t do this.
Glad you admit it, so stop trying.
I know (and you know) I am forced to tell you that it is something that I have been assured of in my greater consciousness.
That sounds like Bill Murray in Caddyshack…”greater consciousness”. Seriously though, this simply means that in your own mind you believe this god to be real, this barbaric Xian religion to be “true”. That does not, however, mean that it is true. Schizophrenics believe all sorts of crazy things inside their own heads. If we say we hear voices, or believe in monsters living in our basement, etc they lock us up and “treat” our mental problem. But as long as religion is attached to the voices and insanity, then it’s okay.
(something I know you believe is not there/something that you would chalk up to the amazing capabilities of my brain synapses which the brain clearly has the ability to do)
Hallucinations, delusions.
The only time in the entire Bible the Lord prompts a test of his existance or his “being there” is when he calls us to put into practice the concept of faith.
Again, the Bible is written by HUMANS. The humans are writing the passages, no sky boss is telling anyone anything. Books are written about other gods, so they must be real? You do not accept that the Greek gods are real, but the ruins of their temples where people worshiped and prayed to them still remain. One day that will also be the Xian mythology. People are so stupid and needy that they will most likely just replace it for another made-up belief.
Not faith so that you will be a “fat bastard billionare living in the lap of luxury” but faith to have peace of mind and spirit.
We can have that without god belief, as millions of people on this planet do. It seems that the ones who are never happy, never satisfied, always judging, always looking at the bad are god believers, particularly the ones who believe in the God of Abraham. Middle Eastern religions are the most barbaric and warlike.
(which in my mind far outweighs the luxury/I’ve seen too many of them blow their brains out)
Who? I have only seen them go to jail, then crying for forgiveness on the news. Then they go back to their cushy lives again. If they haven’t had it taken away.
I am talking about an experiential finding and YOU will all revert back to a lab and data. That’s fine but when you stretch the data out on the table to examine it I believe you are mislabeling a good deal of it.
And we believe you are wrong. Nothing you claim has been proven. Like I said before, not one shred of evidence to prove your god, your heaven, etc. Not one shred after all these centuries except a dusty mythology book.
You seem most upset about the tragic disparity in the world but very matter of fact about it.
Yes, we are upset. Yes we are matter of fact because those are the facts.
If I go over to build a school for some underpriveledged group or provide food it can’t be in my interest as a “being” because the more for them, the less for me. The scales will tip away from me or toward me. We can see by now that there never was and never will be a compltetely balanced human existance.
No, but this isn’t about that. This is about helping or trying to help others WITHOUT GOD PREACHING AND BIBLE THUMPING.
SO.Why do I go over? Why do I feel for these people? Why do I want them to take my nourishment and me to wane in there place when I am in their presence? I assure you I felt this thing called compassion long before I set foot in a sunday school class and had someone in a flowered dress tell me God was out there.
Because we have a human instinct to preserve the species. Most of us are taught by our families and our societies to be compassionate, to help others and do unto others as we would want done to us. That is the basis of most religions, and come from the human mind. You were born an atheist. If no one told you about god, if you were raised in a caring way and to care for others, you would not need the god belief to react the same way. All babies of all cultures are born atheists. They are taught to follow the beliefs and traditions of that society. Atheist or theist…most of us behave in a “humanist” manner.
I am far too complex and far to diverse to be fooled by you to telling me I am doing this out of being brainwashed.
And you are still brainwashed. Because you are complex, does not mean a god made you. Because you cannot comprehend that we got here some other way, does not prove that a goddidit. Just because you cannot explain something does not mean there are gods and invisible beings in another dimension who care about a speck of a planet in the vastness of the universe.
You may think I am an active troller(as you call them) who makes a point of this and maybe even think that someone in my cinderblock building turned into church has sent me out to rake the masses over the coals but I am not.
But here you are telling us just how “divine” you are.
I am an artist who has lived around ALL types and beliefs and has come to his conclussions through READING, OBSERVATION and APPLICATION.
And you made the decision to delude yourself with god belief, which you are free to do. Most of us have come to the conclusion we have via education also, reading, etc and really analyzing the beliefs we were raised with or came to follow, and really think about where those beliefs came from, why we believe them, etc. Most people hang onto their Christian beliefs because of the afterlife desires. You want to live forever so magically try to make it happen. There is no magic. Only the here and now and what we make of it. And afterwards our memory lives on in the lives of the people we have touched.
So if you want to disagree with me, you have plenty of amunition to do so and you have everyright. But I know in both my head and my heart(I know where you stand on this) that my conclusion is my own.
Like I said, you believe what you want to believe. In your own mind. Your “heart” is an organ which pumps blood and keeps you alive. It is not some melodramatic place for emotions. Emotions, beliefs, thoughts, etc are in the brain. Your gods live inside your own head, however you choose to imagine them to be. If that is what you need, so be it. But there are those of us who are functioning very well without the self-delusions.
I own it as I do any choice I make.
We all own what is inside our own heads. We come to our own conclusions.
It hasn’t failed me in those things it is related to.
Because that is the way you worked it out in your own mind. You make it work out any way you want to. Whatever helps you float your little boat.
So my issues with you stardust are more with the Bible and what it is really saying.
And I have already told you what my opinion of the Bible is. It is an evil book
.Not existance of God and I am not sure how to deal with them seperately and do justice to either.
There is no way to deal with them separately because you believe that your god wrote this dreadful book via human beings. Therefore, for your whole book to be proven “true” your god first must be proven to exist. But it’s a vicious circle…to prove your god you need your Bible, we do not recognize your Bible as satisfactory evidence for the existence of your supernatural god because it was written by ignorant humans in ancient times.
29 December 2008, on 2:24 pm
Oh yes. I would put God belief more in the catagory of Quantium Physics than Santa Claus but that’s just my preference
29 December 2008, on 3:14 pm
Oh yes. I would put God belief more in the catagory of Quantium Physics than Santa Claus but that’s just my preference
Of course you would. You can make your imaginary friend whoever you want it to be. “Quantium” Physics..first of all it’s Quantum Physics…and there is no scientific evidence to prove the existence of your god. You are simply trying to make your “faith” in your imaginary friend fit in the scientific category. It just doesn’t fit. Most Xians are intelligent enough to know that it is simply a matter of faith and not a matter of science that can or cannot be proven.
29 December 2008, on 4:59 pm
Chris, your antagonistic post in the archives was deleted. You accuse us of not staying on track with this debate when you get off on these tangents when we bring up some very pertinent points about your god delusion and your inability to prove the existence of this god without the use of this book that was written by ancient, ignorant human beings. It’s a vicious circle going round and round and nowhere. We have been around this circular argument with religious folks before. It comes down to these things:
You make claims based on your god belief.
You cannot prove that this god exists without your ancient mythology book.
Said book is written by ignorant, ancient humans.
Humans have invented the god of Abraham just as humans have invented the thousands of other gods in various cultures on this planet.
Humans are imaginative and have very weird coping skills in life.
Some of us do not need imaginary friends to manage in life.
So, concerning this post, we get down to two differences of opinions. You think there is nothing wrong with giving a bunch of illiterate, impoverished people a barbaric mythology book along with the real helping of food, water, education, etc. We disagree and do not think that it is necessary and that religion does more harm than good. You can feed people without taking advantage of their poverty to spew Xianity at them.
Therefore I think we are done here. No need to keep on going around and around. We allowed you to state your opinion. Now go off and believe whatever fairy tales you choose. Adios.
29 December 2008, on 5:39 pm
[Chris you have certainly lived up to the name we have assigned to you.] My reference to the Constitution and the Bible was relating the concept of “interpretation” or “absorbtion of data” not to say they are “the same”.
Scientist also recognize that importing redundancy to an account increases the accuracy of results and this is an exponential relationship so with the number of contributers to the Bible it is astoundingly consistent even with the believed contradictions you undoubtedly can name.
I agree with your point that ignorant people can use it to manipulate their situation and others but so can ignorant people manipulate a gun to kill people rather than for hunting.(If you are a vegan, this won’t do much on my behalf/ probably even if your not:)
If I have edged into “witnessing” I am sorry but this is a tricky line to walk(please give me that one???)
By the way, sorry if you spilled your coffee.
Given that I really thought Bill Murray was hilarious in Caddy Shack, that comment hurt:) To that I say Gunga la….Gunga la gunga (so I got that goin’ for me)
The schizophrenic analogy is a good one but the accepted outcome is that they cannot function and survive in their state.
You would argue that Christians can’t either but I have managed for the past 42 years and have not had to check my brain at the door as I have encountered issues in life. I have managed to keep sane and bring in food, learn a trade, give love, accept love feel elated at an amusement park and kiss a girl (everyone chime in here cause that was like an underhand pitch to an atheist from a Christian),etc. Those Christians who are like the schizophrenic are many but they do not speak for the God I know.(No witness intended here but?????) Let me mention here also that God has never “popped into my head” and had an overt conversation as many Christians say happens to them. So the “feelings” I would ascribe to this (Man! I feel like I am at the Dr. with a flu bug) are more akin to assurances. So….less the schizo experience.(Not to cast aspersions)
I am not here telling you “HOW DIVINE I AM”. I am sorry if it comes off that way but I am (in admittedly an imperfect way/ which is OK in science even) trying to convey my experience. I get your experience and I don’t discount its relevance. You are not in jeopardy of witnessing to tell your side so I have additional hills to clime in this blog.
As far as working things out in my mind, that would be a fine conclussion if I was rationalizing a single event or a “short term success” but I am telling you that over 42 years I have had my ups and downs but never found my belief spinning me in a circle or comprimising my ability to learn and live in this world and if other Christians are using their faith to impact other people and cultures (in a negative way) THEY ARE WRONG.
I will say that as far as watchdogging and making the country and world a place in which any belief has all the potential to grow I AM ON BOARD. In this theoretical existance You would feel no oppression and threat from the big invisible God in the sky and the Christians would believe what they believe inviting but not forcing anyone to join them. If there was a God (I said that for you:) In that environment, everyone would come willingly at seeing the wonderful possibilities. If there wasn’t a God, the Christians would live in their
happy go lucky world and no one is harmed. Truthfully, if the latter were the case, the Christians wold cease to exist pretty effortlessly.(admittedly my extrapolation)
Again,
as far as proving before commiting to the accounts of the Bible, it is possible to put the teachings to practice (giving, pastorng, turning the cheek to an enemy, etc.) first and seeing the outcome. As many have done. From an Earthly standpoint this would be counter to logic i.e. turning the other cheek generally leads to a battered and beaten individual) So if these tenants were to bring forth a contrary result it would tend to leave room for the existence of God. Not prove but, like a scientist cause pause for further testing and probable successes. So I don’t think that I got the horse before the cart on this one even though it is reasonable to choose that view. So the vicious circle does not exist in the state you have mentioned for me. Yes, I do understand the concept of the vicious circle.
29 December 2008, on 5:48 pm
OK. On the send off. I hope you know that even if you didn’t consider it beneficial to meet me, I considered it beneficial and not in a round about insidious way. And I didn’t even convert you. Imagine that.
29 December 2008, on 10:07 pm
.
The Constitution is very clear on most matters, and does not contradict itself. If a person chooses to challenge parts of the Constitution, it goes before legal counsel and determined by judges who know and understand the laws, and who have sworn to uphold the laws.
Then there is the Bible and those who interpret it. Contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible can never be reconciled because there are so many conflicting passages and Xians cannot even come to a consensus as to what it all means, and can never come to a consensus about the laws the Christians churches should have in general. And again, religion = THEOLOGY, Constitution and government = political science.
Please do not try to say that your Bible accuracy is tested scientifically. Just because you have a certain unknown number of unnamed contributors does not mean your Bible is true. Nothing has been proven, zero verifiable, reproducible evidence. So please stop mixing science and mythology. Two different subjects. Your religion is based on FAITH alone. What you choose to believe without any evidence whatsoever.
My husband has a schiozphrenic nephew who has survived for nearly 36 years and has lived on his own since age 18. He travels the world, but still has crazy delusions. So, yes…people can survive with mild forms of schizophrenia. Maybe that is too strong of a judgment and should just say that it is a mild form of paranoia…needing an imaginary security blanket to cope with life.
Hard not to think that you are full of yourself when you come here and totally turn the conversation towards yourself and how right you are about your god beliefs. I think you are probably simply trying to reinforce those beliefs but deep down you know we are right, no god exists.
Glad you value the separation of church and state.
You could never “convert” me, I could never force myself to believe that nonsense again any more than I could believe that Zeus or Isis or Odin or Ra is real. I am glad to hear that discourse with us was beneficial to you and hope you continue to think about the things we have brought up in these discussions and on this site. You do not need the god beliefs, the guilt, etc. to get through life. You just have to believe in yourself and in human goodness.
30 December 2008, on 5:52 pm
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