The “vultures” are circling once again. . .
10 October 2008 by Stardust
I have been struggling with more medical problems lately, hence the lack of written posts. Now that I have been having another bout of frustrating medical problems, the magical emails and messages have started to come and so I must do a little venting here. Wait around for awhile and fundies will supply you with a something to bitch about. This post was “inspired” by a close relative who knows me well, and knows that I am not even open to the idea of god belief. She sent me an email about how god touches everyone and how she has touched me and the people she sent it to and anyone I forward it on to. Apparently this god can do nothing without magical emails and special magical messages for everyone to be “touched” by this god, and in turn I am supposed to forward the magical email to others like some sort of Chinese telephone magical god game. This god never speaks for himself. And they make up lots of pretty explanations of why god needs to communicate via humans. God talk always relies on other humans to “pass the word”. When I respond with something like “god is inside human imagination, whatever the person imagines this god to be. Just like any other sort of fiction.” They get pissed off and go into persecution mode.
I wanted so badly to write back: “These touchy-feely emails are invented BY HUMANS, and passed around BY HUMANS, with a HUMAN MESSAGE. No one would even know about your religion if HUMANS didn’t go around talking about it. Nothing happens without human intervention!” But I controlled myself like I always do because it is a close family member.
Now, back to sending religious fundie emails to sick people. . . What’s wrong with just sending a HUMAN message of concern? Why do people have to use a time people are sick to zero in to push their own version of this god crap? That is very disrespectful when the ones sending it know the beliefs of the person who they are sending it too, and doubly inconsiderate to send it at a time when we need HUMAN support and help, not some magical wishes about a magical being who I can never even believe in (and when those forwards raise blood pressure– not because of the message itself since we think it’s a bunch of hooey, but the idea of knowing why they are sending it…to try to get you while you are not feeling good. It’s very inconsiderate to take advantage of sick and injured people for one’s own selfish purposes of pushing their own personal beliefs.
I could send out atheist forwards to these people, but do not because I can let most of this crap slide. For one, I recognize that it is their right to believe however they want. But if I did send out emails telling them they need to get rid of the delusional beliefs, they would get all shitty about it and never speak to me again for dissing their delusion. Even when we try to tell them even nicely to keep their religion to themselves, it causes some of them to have an emotional meltdown, they cry, accuse me of hurting them for rejecting their silly god beliefs — some even went so far as to shut me out of their lives. I don’t reject them, but I do reject the crap they are trying to sell me. There are millions of things to talk about, and I don’t find a problem talking with most people about all kinds of things. But for the fundies, it always goes back to their own version of god beliefs. They cannot see that their beliefs are interfering with real living and relationships with others.
It’s all so unnecessary, this endless god peddling that drives a wedge between friends and family members. Most of my friends and family members believe in some version of god and yet only a few who find themselves to be more “holy” than anyone else and have “true beliefs” have the problem with respecting the beliefs or non-beliefs of others. It’s so very sad that religion also makes people change. While those people who have become more and more “devout” may say I have changed, it is not me. I have never believed in god or the Jesus zombie story unquestioningly even as a Christian. I did the church thing as a tradition when the kids were growing up, because it’s how I grew up in a country that is predominantly Christian. I now reject it, but I am still the same person that I have always been. I do not go around preaching atheism to family membes and friends. While I support atheist organizations and movements within the internet realm, and I have a blog, I rarely talk about my non-belief even when people make comments about their magical friend.
The ones who HAVE changed cannot see it. They cannot see how pompous and self-righteous they appear to others. They cannot see that their religion is no different now than before. Lack of god belief isn’t causing the economic crisis, lack of god belief doesn’t cause medical problems, lack of god belief doesn’t cause misfortunes to happen. Non-believers bounce back from problems just like believers, because of human actions. Things usually get better in time if PEOPLE work to correct the problems. But if people don’t do somthing, no god comes. If people don’t go to have surgery, therapy, take medicine…no god comes. If people don’t work to pay their bills and manage their money intelligently, no god comes. If people build their house in low-lying flood areas, no god comes to stop the floodwaters when we get a freak rain. I wish the people who push their religion on others would actually stop and consider who is really in charge in their lives. THEY are.
10 October 2008, on 1:29 pm
Thanks for sharing, Stardust; and so sorry to hear of even more medical travails.
Yeah, no god ever comes…or…
no god, no time, no how! (ala a recent Hillary-style comment?)
Most, if not all, of my remaining family and friends know that I’m an atheist. I’m not sure if that’s the total factor; but I get almost no personal emails these days. One quasi-friend gal, a sister of two of my childhood buddies whom I knew since the 1940s (reintroduced, a few years ago, via “Classmates.com”) used to regularly send those chain style, superstitious, god botherer emails.
I finally sent her an email ‘reprimand’ which somewhat curtailed the habit. Sadly, she died this last year of lung cancer at age 70(?); I haven’t heard anything since from her brothers.
I have an older agnostic-style sister who’s online, but has no interest in emailing me…or anyone? Whether my atheism is a factor, I don’t know. We’re total opposites politically…and financially; and anytime we talk by phone, it ends in some kind of argument. Ergo…Nada phone calls…especially these days! Albeit, a typical, somewhat common, family style…”long story” shtick!
It points up to me that VERY old traditional ‘formula’; which is probably, in retrospect, still good advice in most…especially family…circumstances:
“Don’t talk (or email?) about Religion or Politics!”
[feigns putting sock in mouth]
10 October 2008, on 1:29 pm
Okay, can I have your computer?
10 October 2008, on 1:41 pm
No, it’s only the Christians who are commanded to give to all who ask of them – and they never do.
10 October 2008, on 3:31 pm
How annoying that is. You know, it’s times like when I’m having medical problems that I find the greatest comfort in the ingenuity of humans and I take solace in it. I get frustrated too when people force their beliefs down peoples throats when they are down. It’s very inconsiderate, but i rarely find a truly compassionate person in the fundie bunch. Good luck with your medical problems. I love this blog and have been following it for weeks. In a election year iIstart to feel very misanthropic when some of these morally conservative issues start coming to light and I can see how little reason effects some very vocal people. Blogs like this give me hope.
10 October 2008, on 4:26 pm
“Don’t talk (or email?) about Religion or Politics!”
ChuckA, it’s always the fundie relatives of mine and a couple of fundie friends who always persist in talking about both. One aunt who voted for Bushie and is a die hard republican is always sending forwards about gasoline prices and the economy and I resist the urge to send her back a simple statement “you keep voting for these problems”. I reason that they send me stuff first so they are starting it, right? Opening the door? But they don’t see it that way. They just want to say what they say, send what they send but they don’t want any responses or disagreements or else you will be persecuting them.
marcus, you want my computer?
Sir Michael, nope, they never offer to help or do anything humanly possible. Praying for us relieves them of their guilt of lack of action.
Angel, welcome. Glad to have another reader and chime in any time. Thanks for your good wishes. It’s just a few of my regular obstacles that have been going on and off for some time.
Yes, we all need some place to come and vent, especially during election year with the Rethuglican Party of Gob to make fun of. If they win I will seriously have to consider moving to another country.
10 October 2008, on 4:32 pm
I don’t send out those email either, even though they (my daughters) often flood my inbox with religious quotes and stories. I would never think of sending out the atheist stuff to them. Why do they insist on trying to convert me ? Telling my family and friends how I feel and what I don’t believe was difficult in that I know how religious they are, at least my daughters but my son… He told me today that I am a religion hater. He says that I use blogging to spout my atheist religion just as fundies spout theirs. He says he doesn’t believe in the god thing but that he understands that religion is necessary. I’m reading a book, The Necessity of Athesim and I mentioned it to him. I ask…if one is necessary is not the other?
10 October 2008, on 5:12 pm
Interested, many of us here, if not most are in the same family situations as you are when it comes to religious beliefs. It can be extremely frustrating when we are supposed to not just merely tolerate, but they expect us to show respect for those things we think are ludicrous.
He told me today that I am a religion hater.
People use that so often to those of us who merely state our counterpoints to religious beliefs. I turn this around sometimes and ask my fundie friends and family members if they then are atheist haters, Hindu haters, etc since they pray in their churches and even in private, sending emails to my personal email, pushing their propaganda to everyone who is not like them. They preach that we deserve to go to eternal torture, damnation for merely not believing what they do. Now if that doesn’t sound like hate, I don’t know what does. And if we hate that sort of hate, then it is justified.
He says that I use blogging to spout my atheist religion just as fundies spout theirs.
Why not, there are point and counterpoint blogs for just about every issue, so why are we not allowed to have a counterpoint to religion?
He says he doesn’t believe in the god thing but that he understands that religion is necessary.
Necessary? Did he explain why it is necessary to believe that people who think like you do are going to be tortured and suffer forever? Why it is necessary to believe that a god made a son for himself to torture in a most hideous way just because people won’t believe in him?
I’m reading a book, The Necessity of Athesim and I mentioned it to him. I ask…if one is necessary is not the other?
Did he have an answer to that one?
10 October 2008, on 5:19 pm
You know I was so delighted tor read this post! I’ve got about 3 Bible-Thumping Nut-cases who never send me one ‘hope you are fine’ statement/card, but will bombard my e-mails daily with this ‘god crap’.
When I nearly died in 2002 and took 5 years to recover, it was always ‘by the grace of god’, that I recovered!
It had nothing to do with the doctor care; the therapy – the hospital/doctors and nurses who saved my life, and absolutely nothing to do with the power of the body to heal! Nope, no credit from my god-freaking friends who just figured god had decided it was ‘not my time to die’.
I’ve always marveled how they know what god is thinking……
I also though the above comments were just as refreshing and helpful as the post.
Now, do you suppose ‘god’ wanted me to find this today? (Smile – teasing of course). Diane
10 October 2008, on 6:07 pm
Despite your recent health problems, Stardust, you’re still a star blogger! I’ll bet it helps handle everything, including your fundy family members, to be able to come online and just do whatever you need to do to let off steam. Like you and ChuckA, I have some family members and friends who still send me doG-bothering e-mails; I agre with Star that what’s most infuriating is that they just forward that ridiculous crap instead of actually taking the time and effort to communicate with me person to person.
However, to give credit where credit is due, I have one friend who loves to send me Republican/xian/conservative chain e-mails, especially those that reference history, not because she agrees with them but because she says she enjoys my rebuttals. When repubixiancon people write or say these things to her, she can’t think of how to refute them on the spot, and so she sends them to me to see what I do or say.
I’ve told her I often had that happen to me in the past and occasionally still do – I’m only human; people can still take me by surprise sometimes! – but that seeking out good news and opinion sources, reading, journaling (doG, I hate that word; it sounds so chick-flicky and really mine is more like venting and ranting on paper), blogging, and starting to write little by little by commenting are all excellent practice in holding your own in a conversation (or even if you’re being harangued!). Sure, you’ll screw up often – but you want to screw up often. Embarrassing as it may be, it’s practice and you learn from it; even star athletes don’t win all the time.
Interested, has your son ever said exactly what it is that he thinks is necessary about religion? You know, coping mechanisms, ritual and tradition, population control, something else? He sure doesn’t sound like a believer if he doesn’t “believe in the god thing”…
10 October 2008, on 6:46 pm
Stardust:
You have to live with them I guess. If anybody in my family did that sort of thing, the first e-mail–insisting that they stop sending them–would be polite, the second not so much.
11 October 2008, on 10:58 am
Good rant, Star! Sorry about your medical woes; I’ve not been at the ‘puter as much this week and an behind in the news-just did read your email. I don’t have family who send me the religious crap. Most of my family is no longer in touch with me, or of a generation that does not use computers. One cousin was sending me lots of rethuglican stuff, but I mostly just ignored it and he has not been heard from in a while. One friend sends me those chain things once in a while, and invites me to church, although I keep repeating that I am an atheist and am not interested. The most recent thing she did was try to get me interested in some “Angel Food” grocery order deal through the methodist church, where you prepay a certain amount and they deliver a package of food and staples to your home monthly. I know she was trying to be helpful, as I don’t always get out much, but I AM capable of getting my own groceries! It took three months to convince her that I didn’t want to participate, because I was being ever so polite about declining, and not wanting to offend.
As for your relatives, if this is the main contact you have with them, why not tell them exactly how you feel? Maybe select ones anyway? Tell them that you don’t push your ideas on them and you would like them to reciprocate. And if they insist on god-bothering you, it may be a relationship breaker. Why let them push your buttons and stoke your blood pressure? If they cry persecution, remind them that it has been they who have been bullying you for so long and you have finally decided to say “Enough!”
I hope you are feeling better soon.
11 October 2008, on 12:22 pm
^^ Karen, thanks for the get well wishes. It’s going to be a long haul this time to recovery. Months.
But my husband who is my god is here for me. 
I’ve had endless conversations with this relative who happens to be my sister. The big problem is that her kids turned fundie and then she turned fundie because I think she was afraid she wouldn’t be able to see her own grandkids since my niece and her husband keep their kids way from heathen or godless family members who might just give them another point of view. Then they move off to this island in Alaska and after I told her not to send me any more religious email/snail mail her husband sent me a nasty letter telling me to no longer have communications with “his wife”. Most of you probably remember that. Well, haven’t spoken or heard from them since, and that is fine with me since there are numerous family members we never hear from or communicate with for various reason, mostly they are like strangers and don’t really know them…which is the category we put my niece and her family in. But my sister hasn’t “disowned” me but has kept distant. She married this very “devout” divorced guy who is quite prudish and isn’t comfortable around most of our family, even the Lutheran ones. My sister and I have had many talks about our differences and her needless praying for me bullshit. Even though I remain nice and polite, it always ends with her breaking out in emotional meltdown with tears and her ranting about her being afraid for me in the afterlife…that I am going to hell for rejecting her god. She says she loves me and knows I am a good person but says that is not enough. Good people go to hell if they don’t believe in Jeeebus…period…according to her. So…every chance she gets she is “witnessing” to me via quotes at the bottoms of emails..Bible quotes even at the bottom of emails that come from her work email address. She had been good for awhile not to send religious forwards to me, but now that I am having problems she is starting up again with them. Some stories about god being with you in the “storms of life” and bullcrap like that. I resist the urge to write back “why doesn’t god stop the storms in the first place?” and then tell her that her god is in her own mind.
The other person to send me religious emails stopped for a long time and even started sending me dirty jokes and stuff, going to the other extreme (being typically hypocritical) and now she is starting to filter in the religious and political crap in between the dirty jokes. It’s as if she assumes if I don’t want to hear about Jeebus then I probably want to hear dirty jokes and stuff.
I have been hitting the delete button for all forwards for these people, but often now they just copy and paste the forward in a regular email so you don’t know what it is till you open it. They think they are being tricky.
11 October 2008, on 12:54 pm
…it always ends with her breaking out in emotional meltdown with tears and her ranting about her being afraid for me in the afterlife…that I am going to hell for rejecting her god.
You’re so patient. If someone did that to me, I’d probably say something like, “But you’ll be in heaven, right? Where you’ll be eternally happy? You won’t be worrying about me then, so why worry about me now?” Just to turn them on their heads for a bit. It might seem a little rude, but it could get some thinking going… And I’d like to hear their response after that.
11 October 2008, on 2:27 pm
Religion, just like some (logical & critical thinking resistant) mental virus, really does cause mental illness…especially the extreme hell-fire and Eternal damnation variations. Somehow Fundies have been terminally dogmatized by that totally made-up fear crap which, I contend, was purposely added by the original New Testicle assembling, fraudulent fuckhead, lying authors; which was accomplished early on in the evolution of the made-up, and borrowed, Xtian mythology. As I’ve said elsewhere on GifS; what a fuckhead so-called “Saint” Paul (Saul of Tarsus?) must have been…IF he ever actually existed.
There’s so much fraud contained in all religions; which is more and more being exposed by modern scholarship and archeology! Xtians REALLY need to bone (bonehead?) up on the history of their particular version of the so-called, perennial…”Great Lie”.
The same shit was done by the Islamic fucks to their totally warped, extremely patriarchal, Abrahamic bullshit. The Jews, from my experience, don’t stress as much of that particular moronic hell-fire viciousness in their more “unspecified”…almost ignored…afterlife shtick.
But then, of course, the OT is the original “Abrahamic” (from Brahma?) viral mental atrocity!
Stardust…Your last comment reminded me again of your (infamous?) “Alaskan” connection…which in turn brings up the latest ‘Palinesque’ turn of events. Perhaps, combined with McLame’s recent little ‘Wingnut audience spanking’, it’ll somewhat quell some of the ever crescendoing outrageous and overt racism; which has made this the most scary and bizarre Presidential election…certainly in MY lifetime!
Hmmm…and somehow, the old hilarious “Bullwinkle” cartoon series comes to mind…only slightly altered; as in…
“Moose and Squirrelly”!
[Or...considering Shotgun-Palin..."Dead Moose and Squirrel"]
[Palin]:
“Sometimes I can even see Boris and Natasha from my porch!”…?
11 October 2008, on 2:29 pm
Oh gosh, people. Now she is starting in a regular email format about that something is bursting in her heart to tell me …I basically told her that I appreciate her good wishes alone and good intentions. I am trying not to be hurtful since it’s my sis. I just don’t get the panic, the fear she has. It’s got to be awful to live with that fear that others you care about are going to burn up in eternal flames.
Kate, I tried that “but you’ll be happy in heaven” thing and no response. They explain it away like they while feeling joy they will also feel sadness for us who are “lost”…in other words, they make up shit as they go along to try to explain their ongoing shifting fictional story. It reminds me of those stories you tell when you sit around a campfire in a group and people keep adding to this story and it keeps taking twists and turns as people add to it. That’s exactly what people do with their religions and why it takes so many different directions depending on the storytellers.
11 October 2008, on 3:50 pm
Star, I guess I’m lucky. I’ve never gotten that. The worst I’ve ever gotten is a nurse at a weight doctor I used to go to (I carry it well because I’m tall). I told her my little brother and I were going to see the Da Vinci Code and she told me how it was all fiction because her church went through it and told her.
My reply (and I love it by the way) was: I’m an atheist. It’s all fiction anyway.
She was going to pray for me. Obviously, it didn’t work.
But I feel for you Stardust. I hope you get better soon. It sucks being sick, but it’s even worse when it’s upgraded to medical problems.
11 October 2008, on 5:21 pm
>i>Now she is starting in a regular email format about that something is bursting in her heart to tell me …
It must be terribly frustrating to go through this drama with members–close members at that- of your own family. She’s an adult, fer fuck’s sake, and she’s worried about you going to hell, seriously. Maybe we should put our thinking caps on and come up with some more rational issues to worry about. Like maybe something she actually can have some kind of control over. Such as : Fire ants are on the rampage here in NC. Tell her they’re on their way to wherever she lives, and she must go out and arm herself with Fire Ant Protection right away! You can’t really kill them all, cos they go so deep into the ground. If you poison down far enough to kill the queen, it contaminates the ground water and surrounding soil. (Just learned this from my Terminix guy). If ya want, I can box up a HUGE supply of fire ants to keep her busy!
Sheesh. The sheeple and their imaginary friend. I thought it was supposed to bring ‘em comfort (and joy, comfort and joy! How many days till xmas?) Seems more like it just makes ‘em worry unnecessarily.
12 October 2008, on 8:40 am
Stardust,
Here’s to better health, and soon!
I’m sorry to hear about the trickery your relatives use. I’m fortunate enough to have all atheist siblings and an “irreligious” mother. My dad and stepmom send me glurge sometimes, but I just generally delete it. I think my dad is mostly religious just to appease my grandmother. Well, that and he’s a staunch Republican, which provides its own challenges.
13 October 2008, on 1:24 pm
Star, I wish you didn’t have to deal with these medical issues. From experience, I understand how demoralizing it can be when they go on and on. But you’re not alone, and I send you good wishes.
My sister, who could not be less like me in any way and from whom I’ve been on-and-off estranged (but currently not, more’s the pity) said to me on the phone last week, “I know you don’t believe in god. Maybe someday you’ll explain to me why” and I just thought, “No, I won’t.” I don’t know if she still goes to church or not (we were raised Catholic, yeesh), but I couldn’t be less interested in “explaining” my non-belief to her or anyone else.
I have an acquaintance who occasionally sends out emails with photos of her kids, etc., but who once forwarded to me once of the most obnoxious things I ever received. It was a video that managed to cram in – in aboaut 60 seconds – every hackneyed, jingoistic god-and-country image (flag waving, eagle soaring, you get the idea) imaginable and tied it all up with a tidy bow of g-o-d. I’m always very pleasant to this person when I respond to her boring emails, but when I got this one, I wrote back, “You know I’m an atheist. This offended me a great deal. In the future, don’t forward to me anything like this again.” I fully expected that I’d never hear from her, but oddly, she continues to send out the boring kid pics, etc. But she’s never sent me another propagandistic, holy-roller bullshit thing. Go figure.
13 October 2008, on 5:55 pm
Oy vey, Star; sounds like your sister’s going through the same panic at a later age that I went through as a kid going to fundy school. I honestly don’t know which is better – well, maybe getting it and then getting over it as a young ‘un. I’m so glad I haven’t wasted any of my adult years worrying that my family and friends who believe differently from me are going to hell forever and ever. I wonder if the maybe-your-church-is-wrong tactic might work with her?
16 October 2008, on 5:18 pm
Here I am, not having been by this site in WAAAAAAYYY too long (more on that in a minute), and I come back to find Stardust with health problems! Get better soon, ok? I really hope everything is all right and that the crazies give you a chance to rest.
Health aside, how is everyone? I’m glad to see so many old timers still on here. I sort of fell off the face of the Earth, but my life has been extremely busy. With the election coming up, I suddenly got that itch to see what was going on with my favorite atheists and I see things are as great as ever with the site. Awesome!
Where’s the time gone? Well, since I last posted on here, I finished my Masters Degree, moved a couple of states over, started work on the PhD, the wife and I had a daughter (so now there’s a prince and princess!), have continued teaching, help run a tutoring center, and have met some really cool and enlightened people in a state bordering Texas.
The election stuff going on here right now is great. All of the bloggers and commenters on here deserve pats on the back, trips to Vegas, crates of their favorite beverages, etc. I’ll try to pop in from time to time and not disappear for a year and a half at a time anymore
16 October 2008, on 11:06 pm
Hey King Retard, thanks for stopping by! A big…Welcome back?
Personally, I wondered what happened to so many “old timers” who seemed to drift away after Sean’s death.
Congrats on all those listed “personal accomplishments”!
Good timing too; it’s been rather quiet around here; especially the last few days, since Stardust’s…hopefully VERY temporary…health problems.
“Our thoughts and…erm…”wishful thinking”(?)…are…ummm…with her?”
(reaches for FSM prayer book)
ROIT!
Anyway…
I always associate you, KR, with the great “original” gang of people who where so active here at GifS when I first started comment ‘yapping’; sometime back in early 2006(?).
Thanks to some of the all-time perennial Posters…”god-Ron”, Bob, Stardust, KA, Eve, Karen…Naomi, RDZ (somewhat rarely)…”etc.”..GifS is still “hangin’ in” as a great, comfort affording, home base for many of us atheists.
[In my case; one of the 'Senior Citizen' variety.]
Anyway…as the old saying goes:
“Don’t be such a stranger!”…?
20 October 2008, on 9:55 am
Stardust, I wish you the best in the fight for your health. May I recommend a book? It’s called “Anticancer” by Dr. David Sevan-Schrieber. It chronicals the Dr’s battle with his own cancer. In the pages he delinates how to win your own health back. He utilizes a massive research review, his own knowlege, and of course, his own cancer-free result. He faces baised-fueled ignorance among his peers and becomes a maverick (did I just say maverick?) in his own profession. It is an eye-opening read.