Tolerating ourselves to death
12 April 2008 by The Uncredible Hallq
Last week, I posted an embed of the video Finta, put together by Dutch politician Geert Wilders. The response to the film is provided a troubling reminder about the free world’s very limited ability to stand up for itself. I didn’t mention this in my original posting, but a couple weeks ago, I went to a university-sponsored dinner involving a talk on immigration and related issues in the Netherlands, and when Wilders came up, the gist was that his views were considered beyond the pale, so before even knowing what would be in the video, people were planning to flood YouTube or wherever it got posted with fakes (presumably keyed to the same search terms) in hopes that people wouldn’t even be able to find it. The speaker, from the Netherlands, gave a vague impression she thought this was a good idea.
More incredibly, PZ posted a link to the video, and after some angry comments, declared he didn’t really endorse the video, and called Wilders a racist. This sort of overblown rhetoric, directed at people with different political perspectives than he, is something we’ve seen from PZ before. The idea that the film itself is racist is a lie of Orwellian proportions, a sign the speaker is trying to bully the truth into submission, or is at best thoughtlessly passing the Kool Aid served by someone of the first type. Islam isn’t a race, it’s a religion, a belief system, and deserves to be judged as any other belief system would be. (Or, as As Jihad Watch puts it, “He’s a racist, but not toward a race. Got it.”) Sure, people are in some sense born into it, but the fact that a belief system relies mainly on people unthinkingly adopting the beliefs of their parents is reason for embarrassment, not grounds for respect.
I tried searching online for any real evidence of Wilder’s racism, and e-mailing PZ to ask what he had in mind, but first turned up more “you can’t criticize Muslims!” and I didn’t get a response from PZ. I did discover that a supposedly anti-racist Dutch group had organized an anti-Wilders protest of about a thousand people.
Further reality check: Yes, Wilders is talking moratorium on immigration, and I personally would like to believe that Europe can assimilate its incoming Muslim population, if only they’d try harder (though hard-core multiculturalists seem opposed to even that). But I don’t live on the continent, I don’t know what it really feels like there. Having had public figures killed for criticizing Islam, others forced into hiding, must be pretty jarring. I don’t know how hard assimilation would really be. Wilders’ views on immigration are debatable, but they are hardly beyond debate. They deserve to be treated as center-right, not beyond-the-pale right. And as for how prevalent sympathy for terrorism is among the immigrants, though they may not be monolithic, let us not forget that even the heroic immigrant apostate Ayaan Hirsi Ali, at one point in her life, thought killing Salman Rushdie was a good idea. It’s a scary situation, caution is warranted.
Can we review a time line of Islam in the Netherlands? You could start telling the story with a certain woman who fled to the Netherlands from a repressive Islamic society, where her genitals had been cut up according to the standard practices of said society. She found back by making a film. The director of that film was killed, and she went into hiding. The killing of said film maker was a scary event, creating worries about self-censorship, and some other people decided to respond to the situation by publishing some cartoons. The result was riots all over the world, in which about 100 people were killed. This time, the forces of Enlightenment have responded by making another video. And people are upset about this?
The film makers and cartoonists are heroes. They have set a shining example how to mount a civilized response to thugs. We should be celebrating them, rather than issuing bogus condemnations in the name of “tolerance.”
12 April 2008, on 8:52 pm
Ramen!
Any religious ideology that forces others to walk on metaphorical eggshells for fear of bodily harm, property damage and/or death in what should be a free society is a toxic ideology. Even “moderate” Muslims can be whipped up into mob frenzies and destroy and kill at the least little perceived offense against Muhammed (Piss be upon him). For an example, see the horrible reactions around the world to the Danish Muhammed cartoons.
Just as I think deportation of immigrants who join dangerous gangs and engage in violent crime in the US is not a racist response, but rather a necessary measure for protecting society (just ask residents of LA), I think that radical Islam cropping up all over Europe must be squashed immediately for the sake of all non-radical Muslims and people who want to continue to live in a democratic, peaceful society.
It’s simply ridiculous to continue to tolerate the type of people who advocate death and discrimination for everyone not like them. If Muslims (or any other religious group) can’t assimilate peacefully into European societies, maybe they should think about leaving instead of trying to force said societies into deferring (undeservedly!) to their hateful worldviews through fear and threats. That’s not racism; it’s common sense.
12 April 2008, on 9:00 pm
I just wanted to add that this whole issue has deep and complicated socio-economic undertones, like every immigration issue, and while religiosity in and of itself plays a big role in violent radical Islam, class resentment, cultural misunderstandings and rampant fear and poverty also contribute to hypersensitivity and overreactions to imagined offenses against a minority religious ideology. I still think that people who can’t adapt to their adopted culture should leave if they can’t play nice.
13 April 2008, on 1:17 pm
I did a post on Fitna here:
http://anexerciseinfutility.blogspot.com/2008/04/fit-over-fitna.html
The thing is, it is one thing to make criticism, it is another thing to be intentionally provocative. For example, if I was a good artist, I could paint a picture of Jesus being fucked in the ass by the Virgin Mary wearing a strap on dildo and claim “Freedom of expression! Freedom of expression!” in response to the predictable Christian outrage. But would it really be responsible of me to do so.
I watched Fitna once, and it is the equivalent of a man poking a stick in a beehive and then when the bees get worked up into a frenzy, he declares “See how savage they are!”
The situation in Europe with comparison with its Muslim population is not comparable to the United States. As The Economist article I link to points out, in the United States, it is easier for immigrants to find work and hard to get on welfare. In Europe, it is the opposite, it is easy to get welfare benefits, but its cumbersome labor markets make it hard to get jobs.
To the Muslim populations in Europe, it should be made clear: You want to worship Allah and pray towards Mecca five times a day? Fine. But a certain reciprocity is required, and if you are unable to do that, then pack up your shit and go home.
13 April 2008, on 4:02 pm
Tommykey – Allah forbid anyone should intentionally provoce thought! Like all those documentaries about nazi germany – why couldnt they just stick to criticizing instead of the ugly imagery. Of course in both cases, these documentaries are real images, and not some sort of cartoon role reversal fantasy. (Not that I would seek to restrict a funny cartoon either) Tommykey, you seem to have fantasy confused with reality. Not cartoon images of mythical characters or insects, but real live humans are being harmed in this documentary. It is nonfiction. I wouldnt go as far as to compare muslims to bees though, becuase it might offend someone. Please dont take any of this personally, but i do think there is an important distinction between Wilders’ serious awareness rising intentions and the humorous or mischievous intentions in your analogies.
Cutting off immigration is probably a hell of a lot easier than sneding people back home.
13 April 2008, on 7:20 pm
While the images may be genuine, the use of them is disingenuous.
Geert Wilders is a dickhead. He IS deliberately provocative. If stomping cats to death served his purposes he would do that.
13 April 2008, on 8:41 pm
Jimmy Dean, did you even read my post that I linked to. I did provide “real world” examples that a Muslim could incorporate into a propaganda film to show Muslims that America does not value their lives and wants to destroy them.
I am all for provoking thought. But that is not the same thing as pushing emotional buttons just to get a rise out of people.
13 April 2008, on 10:26 pm
I did not read your post. Perhaps I will now… well that was long winded…
Good luck finding someone to make your propaganda film! Still not really a direct analogy, but closer… I guess I’m just an “Islamophobe” to some folks. Maybe you should make one about Stalin killing people who happened to be religious while youre at it, to make people afraid of atheists. Of course, you probably wont find anything of an equivelant to the KORAN in either case. (or did I miss something in the constitution?, and obviusly, as far as atheists go, there is no unifying call to arms) Seriously, “pushing emotional buttons”? If it takes “getting a rise” out of people to gather round a logical immigration policy, then I’d say the unpoliteness is very well justified. I agree wholeheartedly with Uncredible Hallq – a free society should be careful not to tolerate itself to death. The Koran actually talks about slowly, gradually infiltrating societies, growing in numbers and influence untill Islamic law is finally achieved. Are people acting on free thought, logic, and democracy when they blindly vote in blocks according to the dictation of their imams? In the name of freedom, should we accept with open arms those who would seek to limit freedoms? Don’t let yourself be scared into a submissive acceptance and apologetic mindset. Neither me nor wilders are calling for a modern empirialistic western move to take over the middle east – merely for an immigration policy that makes sence in the modern world.
13 April 2008, on 10:45 pm
Sure there might be something wrong with a portrayal of “Jesus being fucked in the ass by the Virgin Mary wearing a strap on dildo,” but that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with intentional provocation. When people are ready to try to kill you over fairly run-of-the-mill bits of criticism, intentional provocation is warranted–as I tried to explain in the OP, it’s actually the ideal civilized way of responding.
13 April 2008, on 11:41 pm
TUH:
Geert Wilders is not just an Islamaphobe, he’s a fucking nutjob. His film is aimed only at Islam, not at fundy KKKristianity or old school RCC bullshit. The good Calvinists of Holland engaged in a fair amount of Mayhem when they carving out their empire, just like the rest of the godbesotted idiots have done. He’s not equating radical muslims with a fucked up worldview, he’s equating all muslims with a fucked up worldview.
I’m just guessing here, but I’d bet a euro or six that if the muslims were all blue-eyed blonds that Geert would be less interested in going after them.
14 April 2008, on 4:51 am
Well, Wilders may be a nutjob. That doesn’t make the content of his video untrue. And if he equates all muslims with a fucked up world view, he is at least 95% right. Because, let’s face it, at least that many muslims worldwide have -without any reasonable doubt- a very, very fucked-up worldview.
Just look at the results for e.g. this evolution theory survey: http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/08/well_at_least_w.html
And keep in mind that this is supposedly the most secular islamic country and one of the most “advanced” there is.
“Assimilation” is btw. now supposedly a “bad” word. It has to be “integration” now, according to the islamic (mostly turkish) “verbände” in germany, which basically means, muslims get all the rights, but none of the duties.
During the last 10 years, due to some intense reading, personal contact and discussion with muslims (e.g. a colleague from marocco and one from afghanistan, but not as close relations as well) my view of islam shifted from sorta “good-will laissez-faire attitude” to “fuck this dumb, arrogant, self-righteous, utterly stupid crap”. What get’s to me most is the near complete denial of any problems at all from the side of muslims. It’s always, always,always someone else’s fault. It’s the west, the jews, the “decadent” west again, the “crusaders” and what not.
Bullshit. Either assimilate and lern to tolerate and live with other religions and world-views or f*** off.
The same is btw. true for other religions, e.g. some fundamentalist christians, currently coming in from e.g. russia with similar “values”, religious views and the same arrogant, overbearing and above all agressive behaviour.
14 April 2008, on 9:44 am
Usually it’s the chrimbos who conflate issues (e.g. abiogenesis or the origin of the universe with evolution). This serves as a timely reminder.
The issue of the validity of the message of Fitna is orthogonal to the issue of Geert Wilders being a dick.
And we should stop using the term “islamophobia”. It’s not a phobia if you know why you don’t like them!
14 April 2008, on 2:02 pm
“This film is aimed only at islam” So where were your complaints on the post about Jesus Camp? To be very clear, I (and I suspect the others who have posted on Wilders’ behalf here) fully acknowledge the evils of all religions. However, it is obsurd to say that any particular film must give equal time to bashing various religions. When we lable someone as a racist with no evidence, we weaken the lable of racism. People will become so accustomed to people shouting “racist” at anyone with different viewpoints that the real racists will benefit from it. “Racist” will lose its meaning and the real racists will be made to look just like people with different views. Lets not lose credability in some conjecture regarding Wilders. Wilders seeks to limit immigration – not to go after anyone. He is very clear about this issue not being about xenophobia or racism. Anyone serious about immigration or islamic terror issues knows that racists hurt the perception of their viewpoint and are thus some of their worst enemies. It is the same concept as someone who is an environmentalist seeing the folks who set fire to mansions in the pacific northwest as whackjobs that hurt the reputation of the movement which they are a part of. Let’s keep in mind who is waging violence and issuing death threats.
14 April 2008, on 3:30 pm
OJD:
Geert Wilders is attacking about a quarter of the world’s population (equating all of them with the murderous fuckers in the video)as violence obsessed maniacs.
Wilders is not just recently a dickhead, he’s been this way for many, many years. If you want to believe it’s all about his concern for “tolerance” by those he’s attacking, feel free to do so. I’m fairly certain that had Geert been around in the 40’s he’d have been turning in folks like Anne Frank to the Nazis. He’s scum.
14 April 2008, on 3:36 pm
OJD:
One further point. Religions, in and of themselves, are nothing more, or less, than fantasies. The people who use religions to advance their agendas are evil. The ones who are just silly enough to believe in such things are foolish–but, by and large, they are not evil.
I’m an American; America is, through the good offices of the theocrats and mammonites in charge of the parade, wreaking havoc and destroying both ours and the Iraqi’s society. Do I feel bad about it, damn straight; I will do what I can to change the course of American foreign policy. Am I, because I’m an American, the same as George Bush, evil? I think not. The Geert Wilders of the world are professional assholes.
16 April 2008, on 2:32 am
I always get a little queasy when people say stuff about how Islam isn’t a race but merely a religion. I think that’s a little disingenuous. Akin to saying that Judaism isn’t a race, but a religion. While it’s technically true that Judaism is a religion, there’s an obvious racial component to it.
I am likewise kind of put off about the frequency with which I hear stuff like “if immigrants don’t want to adapt to the host culture, they should leave”. Off the top of my head it begs the question of, “Why were they let in in the first place, then?” And the answer is usually, “Cheap labor.” So I find it a little hard to swallow that people who are being exploited for cheap labor by the host nation should just shut up and follow along. I get that here in America all the time – which is especially ironic here in California, when people gripe about how Mexicans don’t try to “fit into the local culture” – that immigrants are this terrible drain on resources and contribute nothing (which is shown to be a lie whenever I drive by a field of any sort).
I also find it to be absurd beyond my abilities to properly express the notion that, you know, the “free world” can’t defend itself, hehe. The free world seems to be doing pretty well for itself, really, and seems to have little problem projecting force.
I’d also bet good money that white people threaten Dutch politicians all the time on a variety of grounds and it’s only news when brown skinned people do it.
16 April 2008, on 10:13 pm
I know it’s very early in the year for this…
But wouldn’t that Mohammered cartoon be a good theme for a Halloween costume?
Bomb and all! Especially in the heavily Muslim neighborhoods.
I can imagine the surprise on the face of some suburban Muslim klutz opening the door to see that!
Actually, there’s a really good ‘rubber mask’ potential in that idea!
Of course, the company making the mask would be in REAL, heavy shit danger!
I can hear the commercial Ad theme saying something like:
“Just the Halloween outfit…for the kid who ENJOYS getting beaten up”!!!
With the kid in the add exclaiming:
“Help! Help! I’m being repressed!”…or…
“Where the fuck is that flying horse when you really need it!”
18 April 2008, on 5:03 am
Chris Bradley – I hate to blow the top off of your theories which seek to add the volatile issue of “race” to this issue and thus silence anyone who recognizes islam for what it is, but… If you are interested in human genetics you should look into the human genome project. You will find that many people who are muslim today are more closely related genetically to non muslims than they are to other muslims. I am not sure how you would define “race”, but distinct populations with genetic similarities is pretty much the standard in modern biology. Of course, some skeptics like me are still trying to find the utility of a subspecies or race classification, particularly in humans. You see, with such a mobile species, the populations are not really too distinct. I am sorry for getting in the way of your argument, but I felt it neccessary to explain how it is in no way “disingenuous” to make the distinction between adherants to a particular religion and those who would be grouped by genetic similarity. There is no “muslim gene”, “jewish gene” or “christian gene”. The concept makes for good comedy, as we saw in the poat about the gay geneticists’ findings, but be reminded it is fictional. Of course, some nonscientific people speak of “race” in a human context with no regard to genetics at all. Oftentimes by an overemphais on particular physical features or even by cultural trends. Sadly, this is effective to those unfamiliar with scientific fact. People allege racism and predjudice without any proof or grounds, thus undermining the recognition of true prejudice. While it is true that people are born into a given culture, one should acknowledge that they grow up to be the ones passing that culture on to others.
18 April 2008, on 8:39 pm
OJD:
Race and religion are separate. But to say that religious intolerance is not racist is a very different thing. Like I said before, I’m betting that Geert would not have a problem with Danish muslims that were hotties.
Regardless of that, Wilders is painting all muslims with the same broad brush. It’s a cheap, intellectually dishonest practice and it’s offensive.
19 April 2008, on 6:42 pm
watch wilders’ interviews on youtube. He never says that all muslims are terrorists. He is very clear in saying this. In the name of intellectual honesty, we should avoid accusing people of racism without any proof whatsoever.
30 May 2008, on 6:26 pm
[...] This is something I’ve been sitting on for awhile, due to finals and wanting to reboot the blog. It’s carry-over from a post I did at God is for Suckers called “Tolerating Ourselves to Death”, on the short film Finta. Reading that first is a good place to start. This drew a series of angry responses from Larry Hamelin of The Barefoot Bum, starting with one which declared Chris Hallquist proves that sometimes an atheist is someone with just one fewer stupid idea than a theist. [...]