An insane, evil ideology
13 December 2007 by The Uncredible Hallq
(Cross posted at The Uncredible Hallq)
An article just came out in Harper’s, by David Lewis and Philip Kitcher, suggesting orthodox Christians are evil for admiring an evil God. It’s an excerpt from the book Philosophers Without Gods. I’d recommend buying the book over running to the newstand to pick up Harper’s, as:
1) The excerpt is rather insubstantial
2) You can get a decent jist from the Leiter Report summary, to which I can only really add that Lewis and Kitcher briefly endorse the logical problem of evil, which will make John happy
3) I know the book contains at least one other good essay by Richard Feldman.
Anyway, when I consider this article against the backdrop of the current intellectual climate, it feels like the most unimaginable breath of fresh air. Lewis and Kitcher have yet to be hit with the “professional atheist” tag, they’re just another pair of intellectuals writing a popular article. And yet what they say is at once obvious and unthinkable.
Take, as a random first example, this quote from William Lane Craig:
I think that a good start at this problem is to enunciate our ethical theory that underlies our moral judgements. According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God. Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are.
This comes from a discussion of divine orders to kill children. And Craig is not only saying that God has the right to kill children. He must also say that God has a right to starve parents to the point that they will eat their own children, as he is described as doing in a couple of Biblical passages, such as Jeremiah 19:9. What kind of sick monster even thinks of such a thing? If asked to suggest something horrible to do to somebody, I might squirm and suggest electric shocks, but I would never even think to make them eat their own children. If anybody out there reading this been feeling depressed lately, cheer up: no matter how badly you’ve been doing in life,odds are you can at least take comfort in that you are a better person than the God of orthodox Christianity.
Craig’s absurdly arbitrary ethic is indispensable for the orthodox Christian, both because of the difficulty of finding any other justification for the actions attributed to the Christian God, and because of how Abraham is praised for being willing to kill his son simply because God said so. The ring of sophisticated theology has not yet gone sour, though. After all, I was taught the Abraham story in Sunday school at my relatively liberal church.
Or, consider this post by seminary professor Claude Mariottini, which declares that “The reason people believe that the God of the Bible is a savage God is because God exercises divine justice when people fail to meet divine standards.” Roll that one around in your head. “The reason people believe that Hitler was a monster is because Hitler was just.” “The reason people belive that Pol Pot was a barbarian is because Pol Pot was just.” Crazy, isn’t it? Yet too many people allow such pronouncements to take on an air of dignity simply because they’re made in the name of religion.
We need to be fearless in identifying this pernicious nonsense for what it is. Most of the people reading this will be, in a sense, beyond that problem. But we also need to ditch the idea that we are doing anything extraordinary in doing so.
13 December 2007, on 5:32 pm
I know one group of people who don’t get the gist of your post, Hallq.
This is a really dark day for separation of church and state; the Founding Fathers would be weeping right now…
13 December 2007, on 5:58 pm
If anybody out there reading this been feeling depressed lately, cheer up: no matter how badly you’ve been doing in life,odds are you can at least take comfort in that you are a better person than the God of orthodox Christianity.
Too bad that the xian trolls here just don’t get it. They most likely won’t even read the whole post.
13 December 2007, on 6:43 pm
I remember in an ethics class, we were doing some kind of survey thing, and one of the questions was something like, could morals change because a god said so.
EVERYONE BUT ME said yes! I then said “so it’d be okay to kill babies?” and no one answered.
13 December 2007, on 8:12 pm
Funny. It’s just like saying, “the devil made me do it.” It’s a way to cover their asses for the evil they’ve done.
How could a so-called moral person worship that. Pathetic.
13 December 2007, on 8:39 pm
If anybody out there reading this been feeling depressed lately, cheer up: no matter how badly you’ve been doing in life,odds are you can at least take comfort in that you are a better person than the God of orthodox Christianity.
I suddenly feel better about failing my organic chem final.
14 December 2007, on 2:14 am
Julie–I went through the hell that is O Chem last year. I feel your pain.
14 December 2007, on 2:34 am
“Or, consider this post by seminary professor Claude Mariottini, which declares that “The reason people believe that the God of the Bible is a savage God is because God exercises divine justice when people fail to meet divine standards.” ”
I read that post. I threw up a little…
14 December 2007, on 5:25 am
“If anybody out there reading this been feeling depressed lately, cheer up: no matter how badly you’ve been doing in life,odds are you can at least take comfort in that you are a better person than the God of orthodox Christianity.”
Yeah, but being compared to a fictional character doesn’t make me feel any better. By that logic I’m a better person than Ming the Merciless.
14 December 2007, on 10:03 am
If god can have parents eat their own children,then god could probably have children eat their parents.Why does god remind me of Eric Cartman?
14 December 2007, on 2:07 pm
How can a religion that gives you unlimited mulligans for bad behavior (born-again-ity, the sacrifice of Jeebus to absolve you of your sins)be held up as the only basis of morality? The possibility of a deathbed conversion giving you a free pass to salvation is a recipe for immorality.
14 December 2007, on 2:11 pm
Mr.Clark: (in #8):
“Yeah, but being compared to a fictional character doesn’t make me feel any better. By that logic I’m a better person than Ming the Merciless.”
Ummm…The Ming from the original 1930s Flash Gordon serial, I presume?
Hmmm…Could I be Dr. Zarkoff?…huh?…huh?…Pleeeeze?
Naaah…I still feel like one of those “mud people” lurking in the cave!
[Suddenly I hear the "mud people" music; and the sound of that sparkler driven spaceship; and feel an urge to check YouTube for 'ancient' Flash Gordon clips.]
It’s strange (or baffling?) how, with the fucked up examples of all the insane assholes throughout history, who’ve been ‘running’ this cockamamie planet for aoens; humans have the unbridled NEED TO INVENT the “Asshole to End All Assholes!”; and then proceed to blindly bow down and worship the fucking, made-up, psychotic Tyrant!
Stupid IS, as stupid DOES, perhaps?
Somehow, for me, arrogant, delusional humans in power…like GWB, frn’stance…and similar power wannabes, like Fuckabee, or Ramknee…PROVE that there is no “God”.
Certainly no “God” ‘who’ deserves even the passing notion of “Worship”!
Or, as I’ve always thought of that stupid, contrived word…”WHOREship”!
Yeah,…my NEW mantra is (shmockingly!):
“I AM better than God!”…”I AM better (cough!) than God!”…
“I AM better (barf!) than God!”
NO?
How ’bout: “I AM a whore!…I AM a whore…I AM a…erm…
Oh…fuck this whoreshit!
14 December 2007, on 3:02 pm
Oh…of course…RE “Flash Gordon”…for reference?:
“Flash Gordon (1936) Serial clip”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B707Ava4wrY
17 December 2007, on 7:36 pm
Chris,
What you call “an insane ideology” may not be insane after all. Michael Vick was sentenced to 23 months in prison for cruel and inhumane treatment of dogs. That is human justice. Hitler killed millions of people; who will bring justice to Hitler and other like him? If Hitler can kill with impunity and not be held accountable for what he did, then there is no justice in this world.
God’s standards are not arbitrary nor impossible; they are just. Because you don’t believe in God, you don’t believe in divine justice. However, since I believe in God, I also believe that every human being has to give an account to God for what they do.
Claude Mariottini
17 December 2007, on 9:16 pm
Claude, um…there is no evidence for the existence of your god. Your god is in your own mind, created by the imaginations of humans. It doesn’t matter what you believe, you are free to believe whatever delusion you want to. Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. Just because some people aren’t brought to justice while alive doesn’t mean there is a big sky judge to do it after people are dead. When people die they are dead, and the world is better off when the Hitlers of the world die. But as for the punishment you wish to be inflicted upon them after they stop breathing — when they are dead they are no more and they cannot be punished no matter how much you “loving and forgiving xians” hope or wish for it.
18 December 2007, on 8:47 am
Perhaps our writer, the Uncredible Hallq, needs a better understanding of Hebrew literature, especially the prophetic genre, before commenting on such matters. A careful reading of Jeremiah 19:9 ff leaves no room for the writer’s hermeneutic.
In this pericope, God is simply telling Israel that he will allow these all too real examples of “man’s own inhumanity against man” to take place, rather than intervene on their behalf. Why? Because they didn’t want His intervention. Because they rejected their God. Because “each man did what was right in his own eyes.” Atheist, Christian, Muslim or Jew. Stop blaming God, or belief in God, for the evil that naturally lies within the hearts of men. It does nothing to advance your argument.
18 December 2007, on 12:18 pm
Kudos to Stardust RE the whole addictive, fear-based, need of most humans to make up some “out there” notion of supposed deity. We’ve all gone around too many times on the whole subject. “Never the twain shall meet”…as usual!
Claude says: “Because you don’t believe in God, you don’t believe in divine justice.”
Some “justice”; demanding perfection, whilst insisting on complete lack of knowledge.
I say that’s an equation which inevitably leads to endless stupidity…even on a so-called ‘divine’ level.
The same notion of “divine justice” that blames subsequent generations for the ignorant choice of two totally ignorant dumbies in a ridiculous garden filled with equally ridiculous animal creations.
[Yeah...the "Original Sin" ploy! What UNjust bullshit!]
Of course, we all know the ’story’; made up (and stolen from other cultures) by rather primitive morons in the desert heat. Under the influence of magic mushrooms, perhaps?
Infantile tribal mythology taken literally; made into an equally infantile & monstrous tale of divine redemption, which shows not one whit of any ‘rational’ notion of justice.
The fact is, that justice is a notion completely made up by man…there’s not one speck of evidence anywhere in the Babble or Koran of anything ‘just’. Indeed, no shred of evidence in today’s understanding of the Universe and it’s constant doling out of forces…like, erm…weather(?) etc.
The best we can do with our made up notion of justice is our sometimes futile attempt at treating each other with something approaching rational fairness; and that certainly falls “short of the mark”…the ‘mark’ which is not even rationally delineated clearly; because it only exists vaguely in human minds.
The other analogous “notion” we invented is that of ‘perfection’! For that idea; one needs to start, perhaps, by reading Plato…you know…the Socratic dialogues? In other words it only exists in the ‘world of ideas’…ala “Idealism”…the world of the human mind.
We humans certainly beat each other up, ad finitum, on both accounts…that of attempting to mimic a monstrously “IMperfect” gawd model with an equally monstrous fantasy notion of infinite justice.
Indeed; where is the justice in each human’s apparent personal BEGINNING…that of birth…with no conscious choice…no equality of time and space…or sex…not even an iota of basic evidential knowledge (tabula rasa) etc. And then we’re all victims of our unequal indoctrination and environment.
Perhaps, the closest ‘faith-based’ notion regarding all that, is the belief in some form of reincarnation; which gives some attempted explanation RE pre-birth choice and the justice notion of ‘karma’ for personal acts. Even the notion of earth being an evolutionary “school” of hard knocks.
However…that’s another ‘belief’; and certainly ‘anathema’ to most of the Western religions…i.e…totally not acceptable. And certainly not acceptable to ANYONE without some very hard evidence.
Again…we’re all left with huge gaps in knowledge; floundering in our attempts at understanding and seeking some HUMAN justice in our unchosen plight.
The best we’ve got…certainly for us atheists; who’ve “been there and done that” with many variations of the religious nonsense…is applying reason to what we actually have evidence for; through…albeit rather recent…”Natural” Science.
Now, excuse me, whilst I get off this (endless) merry-go-round subject!
18 December 2007, on 3:57 pm
To Chuck A: Never has a person (assuming of course, that you actually exist and I haven’t just imagined you out of the vapor of human understanding) written so much and said so little. I suggest you read Julian Jaynes’ seminal work on the origins of consciousness and the bicameral mind before proving your ignorance by stating that “talking animals are a ridiculous notion.” [paraphrased].
Moreover, one is confused by the anger and moral indignation you have for a God that does not exist. Perhaps such an hallucination indicates your mental faculties are in serious wont. Kant said, “I think, therefore I am.” In other words, if you can imagine, or conceive of yourself, then there is a strong possibility you exist. Of course, he also used that as a proof for the existence of God. If one can imagine a being with the characteristics and qualities attributed to the God of the Tanach, Bible, Koran or other sacred writings, then that being most likely exists. Otherwise, our mind wouldn’t conceive of such a thing.
Justice is as much a universal principle as gravity. The question you are wrestling with is the application of said justice. Get your thinking straight before sounding off on people just because they have faith in God and divine justice. After all, your comments clearly show your faith and justice are placed entirely on yourself. As we’ve already shown, you don’t possess the judgment-type mental activity to warrant such a lofty ascription.
18 December 2007, on 4:19 pm
Doug, this “thing” is imagined in the minds of humans, humans giving this god, or any god, human characteristics. In short…humans make their own gods. Quoting Kant isn’t going to make your god any more real to us. Nor is it proof for the existence of god, gods, goddesses, pink unicorns, whatever. AGAIN…HUMANS CREATE THEIR OWN GODS WITH THEIR OWN IMAGINATIONS GIVING THEIR GODS HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS. They create these gods and god beliefs to fill in the gaps for things they do not know or cannot explain.
Doug, Human judges and juries judge humans, not imaginary sky daddies. If people like Hitler die before human justice can be imposed, then it’s too damn late for any kind of justice no matter how hard you click your heels together and wish for it. You could say that his death is relief to society, but he doesn’t have to worry about being punished or held accountable in some flaming afterlife you wish for him. He is DEAD. One pastor said when I was still a Xian…”life’s not fair, but god is good and just”. Humans created this idea of “divine justice” doled out by an imaginary sky daddy so they could cope with the injustices of the world that they can do nothing about.
And all we can have is faith in ourselves. Even if you have sky daddy beliefs you must rely on yourself and other humans, If you are sitting alone in a cave or on a deserted island with no other humans around, and you become ill or injured, and you cry out, your imaginary friend does not come help you. You die. If you can help yourself to build protection from the elements, forage for food and fresh drinking water, then you will survive. But sit and try to talk to your sky daddy…you simply die.
You god believers know all about judging now, don’t you? That is what you always do…and to go back to your original comment, you do not possess the mental capacity to understand satire, and you must not have read much here on this blog before commenting. We are not angry at an imaginary being, we are angry at pompous asshats like yourself who think you are better than everyone else because you think you are some deity’s special pet.
18 December 2007, on 8:27 pm
Doug says: “Kant said, “I think, therefore I am.””
- Descartes, not Kant
18 December 2007, on 9:05 pm
For Doug,
In agreement with part of your comment #15, belief or non belief, humans are responsible for their own actions.
When evil men plot, good men must plan. When evil men burn and bomb, good men must build and bind. When evil men shout ugly words of hatred, good men must commit themselves to the glories of love. Where evil men would seek to perpetuate an unjust status quo, good men must seek to bring into being a real order of justice.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
And I disagree with your statement in comment #15 that humans are naturally evil. I think most humans are naturally good. Some humans become corrupt due to poverty, environment, insanity, greed, or other reasons and when those people break societal laws, they are brought to trial according to human evaluation and just punishment is decided by human judges according to established laws.
18 December 2007, on 9:36 pm
And Doug,
Your comment: “A careful reading of Jeremiah 19:9 ff leaves no room for the writer’s hermeneutic.”
But there is lots of room for the reader’s interpretation. Hallq provided a simple interpretation from a Bible literalistic viewpoint: “He must also say that God has a right to starve parents to the point that they will eat their own children, as he is described as doing in a couple of Biblical passages” Most fundamentalist Xians do not do a “careful reading” or thoughtful analysis of anything in their mythology book and they believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible (good thing they choose to ignore most evil things like murdering mouthy children, or killing homosexuals, and all that “loving” stuff). You are assuming that all those who read the Bible are capable of literary analysis and criticism.
19 December 2007, on 1:32 am
OK…Thanks, Stardust, Untempro, et. al.!
I guess I should at least TRY to defend my erstwhile ‘imaginary’ dignity…
Ummm…Doug?…
this imaginary (Doug created?) Chuck says:
“Thanks for the personal ad hominem(s),asshole!”
(Pardon my bit of ‘boomerang’ (instant Karmic?)…”verbal justice”?)
Yeah…I’m really just a creation of YOUR arrogant, solipsistic, obviously delusional, brainwashed Christian (or whatever) mind.
It seems, from your misplaced (Kant = Descartes) statement:
“Kant said, “I think, therefore I am.” In other words, if you can imagine, or conceive of yourself, then there is a strong possibility you exist. Of course, he also used that as a proof for the existence of God. If one can imagine a being with the characteristics and qualities attributed to the God of the Tanach, Bible, Koran or other sacred writings, then THAT BEING MOST LIKELY EXISTS. OTHERWISE, OUR MIND WOULDN’T CONCEIVE OF SUCH A THING”
Hmmm (YIKES?)…I never got THAT exact impression of Descarte’s famous (in Latin: “Cogito ergo sum”) statement, when I studied Philosophy way back in MY college days. [I was, incidentally, a Music/Philosophy Major...at a Catlick University.]
So…WHATEVER ‘we’ manage to conceive of, is ‘LIKELY(?)’ to exist, huh?…
WTF!
By that twisted (imaginary) ‘logic’, I guess the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Apollo, Orbiting Teapot, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, S-A-T-A-N, etc…ALL…LIKELY…exist!!!
You’d better watch what the fuck you imagine, Doug…It seems you’re into the “Thought Form” creation realm (Edgar Cayce’s: “Thoughts are Things!”); and we’re all (unbeknownst),…LIKELY…existing in some “Astral Realm”. The movie: “Forbidden Planet” also comes to mind…you know…the creatures from the “ID”…WHOA…
was Freud into Intelligent Design?
I certainly don’t feel, or imagine, any need to follow your reading suggestion, by the way. I think for myself; as finite and limited as that might be…yeah…as is MY wont.
And, Doug?…
Do you really think I, or any of us GifSters, ACTUALLY give a flying fuck about your obvious, kiss-ass, addicted, delusional, probably childhood indoctrinated…imaginary…god belief?
In line with that…for my final ‘imaginary’ comment…why ARE you trolling amongst us?
This IS an atheist Site; and we ’sound off’ regularly on ’scripture up the ass’ trolls.
I think you’ve pretty much qualified for our GifS…”Asshat” category.
What! Let the ‘dubbing’ by the Mods (Stardust, etc.)…begin?
Perhaps, Doug, your own unrecognized doubt and subconscious anger are much more ‘in gear’ than you’re able to recognize, OR imagine. In other words…YOUR subconscious lurking doubts?
I, personally, never frequent any religious oriented blogs…I consider that activity a TOTAL waste of my time; like beating one’s head against the wall; or finger tips against the keyboard.
Something I certainly don’t want to engage in, here on GifS.
Happy imagining, Doug!
But, be careful ‘out there’; there are lots and lots of pretty scary ‘imaginary’ creations. Maybe some of them are YOURS!
20 December 2007, on 5:52 pm
So…WHATEVER ‘we’ manage to conceive of, is ‘LIKELY(?)’ to exist, huh?…
I’m late to this party. Huh? First of all, not only is this guy misattributing DesCartes to Kant, but he’s claiming that DesCartes/Kant actually said what Berkeley said, and Berkeley is an example of a proof of god that was totally unsatisfactory and fallacious.
We need a much better theist to argue these points. This one is too easy to refute and I don’t think he actually “gets” the refutations.
23 December 2007, on 12:29 am
Why do we bother to argue about whether or not Big Sky Daddy is “good” or “evil”? Atheists and Christians could scour the Bible, digging out quotes until the end of time. In the end it doesn’t matter, because GOD DOESN’T EXIST. Surprise surprise, neither does morality. There’s no “right” and “wrong” that we need to obey just as animals and rocks and tornados don’t have morality. We are no different. Lets face it, if you’re starving to death the only reason you wouldn’t eat your own children is because you’re hung up on all the magical right & wrong bullshit you learned in Sunday school. In that situation it’s just dog eat dog, I don’t care what God or Morality thinks.