Where was the “hand of God” to protect his own?
10 December 2007 by Stardust
More tragic shootings, and more stupid-ass interviews with fundies thanking Gawd for protecting them or helping them through the crisis. Security guard Jeanne Assam, a church member of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs (who shot gunman, Matthew Murray) said she “believes God gave her the strength to confront Murray, keeping her calm and focused.”
Well, where the fuck was her god to PREVENT all this from happening in the first place? Why do we never hear a news reporter ask that question?
Brady White, who attends Faith Bible Chapel, where the center is located said of victims from the missionary center, “They’re just wonderful people,” White said of the center’s students. “Their mission is to know God and to make him known.”
*snip”Cheril Morrison, wife of chapel pastor George Morrison, said the man who was killed had just hung up Christmas lights at her home and described the young woman who was killed as “an amazingly beautiful person.”
Why didn’t this god come to the rescue of these “wonderful people” who were working for him? This should get all those missionaries and others who are working for their god to start wondering if their god is either powerless or indifferent, or if this god has no control over anything, or if this god simply does not exist.
“There’s no blueprint for this, we’re just going to be honest and pray for one another, cry with one another,” center director Peter Warren told KUSA-TV. “Who knows what was going on in this young man’s life.”
Pray, cry? (Be honest?:roll:) Lot of good that is going to do. Should be obvious since this even happened that praying is going to do absolutely nothing. And “who knows what was going on in this young man’s life?” Maybe Xians treating him like an outcast? What were the reasons he was kicked out of the center a few years ago? What made him so insanely angry?
“Why would anybody want to hurt those kids?” Martin said. “I just pray for their families.”
Again, if this god didn’t protect these praying godly kids, why do they think he is going to help their grieving families? And if they say that god allowed it because it was “their time,” then it answers their question according to their gawd beliefs about “why would anybody want to hurt those kids?” Uh…because gawd wanted them to die! If they think too much, they can’t help to see the bullshit in their attempts to rationalize their god beliefs.
“We never doubted that we would have a service,” said Cheril Morrison. “We felt like our church faithful all needed to be together.”
PEOPLE TURNING TO OTHER PEOPLE…THIS GOD WASN’T THERE WHEN THE TRAGEDY HAPPENED, AND STILL ISN’T THERE NOW.
10 December 2007, on 10:17 pm
from the AP story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
quote:
“…Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot and killed Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said. The pastor called her ‘a real hero.’ ”
…In other words, a private citizen exercising her 2nd Amendment rights defending herself and her neighbors, friends, fellow congregation members.
10 December 2007, on 10:26 pm
Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard
Why do they need an armed security guard in church when they have Gawd to protect them?
10 December 2007, on 10:45 pm
i thought that was funny too, instead of bullets why don’t the load their security guard’s gun with scriptures and maybe that will protect them a little better next time. but on a serious note, there is one more bible thumper who got what he deserved:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071210/od_nm/evolution_lawsuit_dc
10 December 2007, on 10:54 pm
“The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to” finish, it said.
I’d like to know what kind of health issues would make it “inappropriate” for someone to finish a program? Did he have a communicable disease, or a “morally unacceptable” one?
10 December 2007, on 11:09 pm
Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard
Why do they need an armed security guard in church when they have Gawd to protect them?
I was wondering the exact same thing. I had no idea that New Life, or any other megachurch had security guards, much less armed ones.
I think it seems strange, and somehow wrong to hire people that carry guns and have them in your church. Regardless of whether gawd exists or not, I still think of a church as an open place where everyone is welcome.
Armed security guards sorta kill that feeling. But I suppose this time, having one around came in handy. And that’s pretty sad.
10 December 2007, on 11:17 pm
Regardless of whether gawd exists or not, I still think of a church as an open place where everyone is welcome.
Sarah, there is a new church that was just built near where I live, and it has locking gates to its parking lot. Gates are locked when services are in session, and they are locked when there is nothing going on. There must be a security guard who comes and lets people in and out. I will try to get a picture next time I drive by there.
10 December 2007, on 11:20 pm
Xian troll, Elizabeth M Thompson posted this on my personal blog where I cross-posted this story:
and
She has a website titled God and Grief
10 December 2007, on 11:40 pm
well, like it says in her profile, she’s a writer … who writes on the subject of grief, among others, and here are 200,000 reasons why grief is a pretty big industry
the returns on grief are good, and lizzy must be raking it in, thanks to her heavenly connections of course.
10 December 2007, on 11:51 pm
To JJR’s point, I hear some screaming on the conservo side that this perfectly illustrates why college students should be allowed to carry on campus- the thinking being some packing redneck fratboy would presumably have taken down Cho at Va. Tech. The critical difference here is that Ms. Assam was trained as a security guard. No matter how simple it may seem, an afternoon’s concealed carry class and some plinking at silhouettes or beer cans do not prepare one for close quarters, live-fire combat. It’s far more likely that armed students or churchgoers- or the public in general- would only succeed in soiling their pants and shooting one another(if they hit anything at all) should a mass shooting occur on their watch.
As for why those under the protection of Gob got shot anyway, it comes down to the musical chairs formula. Danger comes, I get a faceful of carpet, you get a faceful of carpet, the next person does and so on and so on. Trouble is, Gob- see Job, is a cruel motherfucker. Say the arena had a seating capacity of 1500. Gob offers up his protection racket to some arbitrary number just a little less than the gate. So, as the slots fill up, a certain number- known only to Gob- get left bareassed in the face of disaster. This number corresponds to the death toll- not including the otherwise bulletproof who myocardially infarct at the stress.
I yearn for the days when disputes were settled with fisticuffs outside and, bumped and bruised though we might then have been, everyone went home alive afterwards. There’d be a lot less murder if, say, a broadsword were the only weapon at a killer’s disposal. Sigh…
10 December 2007, on 11:53 pm
YAYass!…Stardust…
Thanks (again) for directing your usual lazer-like focus on another of the seemingly endless, loony tune-like, tragedies.
Like…here we go again with the usual, delusional based, insanity.
There’s not much for me to add to what you’ve articulated; we’ve been on this merry-go-round so many times…yada, yada?
However; RE the PIC…For anyone who hasn’t seen the very interesting film; or just a reminder for those who have…
Foist: Here’s the YouTube link to:
“The God Who Wasn’t There” – Trailer [2 min.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_IjNPmIEI
2nd: A google video link to a pretty representative chunk…the ‘meat’(?)…of that interesting…and enlightening…presentation.
“The God Who Wasn’t There – History of the Gospels” [12 min.]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=696492648668420724
11 December 2007, on 12:16 am
It’s truly a shame that so many ”Mental Deficients” can get their hands on guns in this Country……. On the other hand, Four less EVIL-Angelists plying their hate has got to be a plus! As a matter of fact, I’d like every one of those PHONY TV Evangelists to be shot, live, on Prime-time TV….. And all the money they’ve rippped off from their dumb krixstian contibutors…. re-destributed to help end hunger in this country, and around the World. Would Geebus want there to be so many guns available? Maybe, maybe not…. but if he did like guns, like so many of his followers do, he’d probably want them all in the hands of churches…. so that they could stifle all Disent!!! After all, didn’t he say that Dis-belief was the greatest sin? And I think he also said…. I come not with peace, but with a sword! Someone you definitely want to worship, RIGHT????????????????????
11 December 2007, on 12:35 am
Sarah, there is a new church that was just built near where I live, and it has locking gates to its parking lot. Gates are locked when services are in session, and they are locked when there is nothing going on. There must be a security guard who comes and lets people in and out.
Yikes! That’s not very friendly, is it? God must not be doing a very good job protecting his places of worship if they need security systems like that.
None of the churches where I live have anything like that.
11 December 2007, on 12:44 am
This shooting isn’t connected to mainline Christians but to the twitchiest of spooky Xians – the dominionists. Dogemperor covers the kraziness of dommie world at DailyKos and Dark Christianity. Check out this post for background:
http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/1008075.html
11 December 2007, on 1:30 am
Out of all of the comments, not one of you has expressed sympathy for the families of the victims. Not one of you have acknowledged the tragedy that this. Instead, we have a bunch of quasi-intellectuals who think they know a thing or two about Theology and Christianity. These people died senselessly and all you can do is use this as a chance to get in your digs. If this happened to a group of atheists I would be saddened and express my sympathy. I would hope that in a tragedy such as this you would at least have the decency to do the same. Maybe that is hoping for too much. Saying “they got what they deserved” is reprehensible. You should be ashamed.
11 December 2007, on 1:42 am
Star;
In regards to troll Lizzie:
“God allows evil. He promises to bring good out of it. Keep watching. You will see this God!”
Sounds like an abusive relationship to me.
“It is in these periods of darkness that our faith is revealed for what it is. It is the evidence of things not seen. When we trust God though we cannot see him or hear him, he is most glorified and our faith is most solidified.”
It only makes sense that your capricious Gawd would expect alogical insanity from his believers–clearly he himself fits the clinical definition of Neurotic (at best) or sociopathic with narcissistic tendencies (at worst).
How can any of this reasoning even make sense to anyone?
Oh, that’s right–who are we to question the will of Gawd? (And how can we use reason with people that have willingly and stubbornly shut their minds off to it?)
11 December 2007, on 1:58 am
cure4pain —– only a quasi-intellectual would consider theology and christianity worth “knowing”, real intellectuals don’t kill their brain cells by “knowing” such bullshit.
11 December 2007, on 2:09 am
Saying “they got what they deserved” is reprehensible. You should be ashamed.
Who here said that? I certainly don’t think that these people deserved to be shot dead at church. And if you think we’re somehow happy that this happened, then you’re totally wrong.
11 December 2007, on 2:51 am
Shouldn’t the families be happy that now their
loved ones are with god, and don’t you get extra points for getting killed in a church
11 December 2007, on 2:52 am
cure4pain?…What cure?
Oh that’s right…an imaginary, do nothing, sky-daddy. That Infinite…always watching voyeur in the sky that you continue to believe in? Just like Santa Clause!…He’s ALWAYS watching you…even when you go to wee-wee!
(Or as the French might say: Oui-Oui!
I prefer…WHOOpee!]
What’s with your condescending hanging out at this, apparently growing in popularity, atheist site? What do you expect to find here? Some sudden, reawakened, “born again” babbling by ‘fallen away’ Xtian’s in some extraordinary re-conversion?
Erm…WTF?
Certainly most, if not all of us, here on GifS, understand the heart wrenching grief that follows these type of terribly senseless incidents. To us, however…the overwhelming majority of this human created madness grows directly, or indirectly, out of the stubborn clinging to various superstitious beliefs…and the warring caused by all the different worldwide ‘brands’ thereof. Often, in my personal opinion, it’s “guilt” turning in on itself; creating terrible depression, which often leads to external violence, as well as self destructive revenge-laden behavior.
That said…why, at this particular time, are you trolling here with us infidels; when there are literally ‘tons’ of people…all over the media…with the usual “hearts and prayers” “going out” to the victims. Looking for some nasty ‘heathen dirt’ to run back with, I suppose.
Personally, as appalled as I am at all the recent, senseless, killing at malls, schools and this church oriented incident; for me, this atheist site is one of the few places I feel at home expressing my outrage at what I consider…as a long ago Ex-Christian…the instigating, early conditioned, ’seed’ origin of perfectionist guilt and fear. The ’seed’ that so often leads, in my opinion to alcohol and drug abuse; as well as various forms of psychoses! Of course I’m referring to ALL religions. Most of us here, as you might guess, are Ex-Christians of one sort or another.
The man ‘made-up’: “Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect” shtick, is an impossible notion for ANY human being to live up to; regardless of any supposed…Amazing (dis-)Grace?
I know this is a waste of time, commenting to you…but I suggest that you TRY doing some actual probing, questioning and independent thinking for…perhaps…the FIRST time in your life?
There are LOTS of useful info places…and videos…on the web; as I suspect you know.
For starters…see my above (#10) comment with 2 video links…Ummm…
if you dare? [If you actually read this far?]
Finally…
“My thoughts…but certainly NO superstitious prayers…go out to you…
at least for a moment or two.
Then, it’s back to other concerns!
As Pat Condell says in closing his videos…
“Peace!”
11 December 2007, on 8:54 am
Stardust got it right. Apparently there is some need of armed security rather than reliance on prayer or the power of their benevelent deity.
And no one seems to have turned the other cheek.
11 December 2007, on 10:18 am
Not one of you have acknowledged the tragedy that this.
Ummm cure4pain — The first three words of my post are “More tragic shootings” AND one of the categories this post is originally filed under is TRAGEDY. See bottom of my post please.
And as Sarah and others have said above, where did anyone say we are happy about it? And did you miss the point about what the fuck did these gawdly people do to a “sick” and disturbed person? Did they try to help him before they told him to get lost? Did they try to help him when he came back? Nope. They fucking told him to get lost again.
Did yo cure4pain read milukfrog’s link above about the damage that “dark Xianity” can do to gullible young people who have mental illness to begin with?
I suggest you use your “intellectual prowess” and actually read and understand the point of a post before YOU make digs and assumptions about us.
11 December 2007, on 10:26 am
Oh, that’s right–who are we to question the will of Gawd?
Fritzy, we hear that phrase so often from Xians, yet we see the opposite from them when someone is murdered…on one hand they say it’s this loved one’s time…then they talk about what a tragedy it is on the other. It’s like all god believers are schizophrenic to some degree or another.
11 December 2007, on 10:31 am
a troll just left another turd in the queue though he is permanently banned. (I won’t mention troll’s name because he thrives on our attention.)
troll writes “so much HATING HATING HATING”
Yeah, that’s right troll…Xians do hate a lot of people. They showed their “xian love” to this young person and look what happens.
Keep reading troll…keep reading and you may one day see the light. (but you are still banned).
11 December 2007, on 10:34 am
No one deserves to die like this, cure4brain. Likewise, no one here is anything less than appalled at the actions of the shooter or anything less than sympathetic to the families of the victims. No, our gag reflexes have been triggered by the useless pablum issuing from the mouths of the survivors, our curiosity by the seeming ineptitude of their Great Benefactor in the sky, our quasi-intellect with predicting how the right wing noise machine will spin this to make it somehow the fault of no prayer in public schools, no creationism in classrooms, gays, certain gynecologists, or atheists in general.
Further, this isn’t some guest book at the eventual funerals of these victims. Nor is it a likely spot their families would come looking for consolation. No, only asshats like yourself would come here expecting it.
Still, yon victims have gone to meet their maker- or you think they have anyway, what’s not to rejoice for their eternal reward come early calling?
11 December 2007, on 10:49 am
I guess their god really hated the people that gunman succeeded in killing. Guess those people weren’t good enough Christians.
I read a few years back about some woman who went skydiving and her parachute failed and she wound up doing a 50 mile an hour face-plant in a parking lot. She lived, but she had major damage and needed a lot of surgery. Afterwards, she said something about her god having looked out for her. My take was that I wouldn’t trust that god of hers since he apparently decided to slam her face into a parking lot that day. That’s one mean son of a bitch, slamming her face into the ground like that. I wonder what she did to piss him off.
11 December 2007, on 11:40 am
Afterwards, she said something about her god having looked out for her. My take was that I wouldn’t trust that god of hers since he apparently decided to slam her face into a parking lot that day. That’s one mean son of a bitch, slamming her face into the ground like that.
DBK – ..or for being an all-powerful and divine entity, his is a really bad catcher.
11 December 2007, on 12:02 pm
Now, was this an example of free will, or were these people predestined to die and this is the way gawd chose for them? I always get so confused about this.
11 December 2007, on 12:29 pm
Out of all of the comments, not one of you has expressed sympathy for the families of the victims.
Besides the fact that the original post does just that, let’s look at how your religious leader’s record of “sympathy” for such things as Katrina:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509130004
Sept. 11, 2001:
http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html
Columbine school shootings:
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=3544
Of course we could go onto the other Abrahamic religions and their zeal to blame others for these things. It’s not like your religion has ever shied away from relishing the suffering and demise of non-adherents. Your “Holy” Bible is full of such sadism.
Nice try asshole.
11 December 2007, on 12:49 pm
Oh, saw this coming. Guess who the Christian right are blaming for the shooting, despite what is known of this killers background?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/11/religious-extremist-tony-perkins-says-secular-media-partially-responsible-for-church-shootings/
11 December 2007, on 12:59 pm
Re: Parachute Lady Story
I ran into a similar person in college – this guy went flying off his motorcycle head first into a tree which left him blind and with a shiny metal plate in his head. I’m not sure if he was ga-ga-for-god before the accident, but after he made all kinds of claims about his survival being the work of divine interception. Strangely though, despite his “awekening” he was a rather arrogant asshole. This was all the more painful to deal with in an analytical philosophy class where we had to read and discuss things like logical positivism, but luckily our professor was a real no-holds-barred atheist, so he called the bullshit like he saw it.
11 December 2007, on 2:45 pm
Another funny one from our queue troll…who is banned. But just had to let you have at this…
Listen, troll. Why don’t you actually read your own mythology book. It’s a book of contradictions and full of violence. Your god is a violent and hateful god…and jealous and all those things that our own sense of morality tells us is wrong. Xians make the god of their Bible any way they want to …nice as a bunny rabbit to vengeful dickhead. I understand that it is much easier to remain delusional all the time. (You xians sure use the word “angry” a lot, and are obsessed with it. Deep down you are probably angry because you want to believe in something you know is a lie.)
11 December 2007, on 3:03 pm
In reference to the link in Spirula ’s comment #29 “It is hard not to draw a line between the hostility that is being fomented in our culture from some in the secular media toward Christians”
Xians will never blame themselves. No one has questioned how this mentally ill young man was mis-treated by the Xians of the Missionary center and megachurch. These god believers must be too brainwashed to realize that god believers make up the majority yet the world is still fucked up. The question has not been asked yet WHERE WAS GOD in all this and if this god exists he chooses to allow gunmen to shoot and kill other people when he could use his Almighty Powers to prevent it in the first place.
The troll in the archives has not even attempted to answer the question…where was your god in all this if he is involved at all? He just continues to tell us gawd loves us, he loves us and is praying for us….oh…and we are just angry because we don’t have gawd.
11 December 2007, on 3:15 pm
To troll in the archives…
Contradictions in the Bible…
of course this would require having an open mind so probably a lost cause on you. (Your latest deleted proseltyzing comments show you are not willing to research because you are either too brainwashed or too afraid…or both.)
You are now back on auto-delete…buh bye…
11 December 2007, on 4:30 pm
Yes, this is a tragedy. Yes, it’s outrageous that someone with such mental problems could not only get hold of guns but also use them to take out his frustration. Yes, it’s fortunate that a trained, armed guard was on hand and on the ball enough to cut him down before he killed more people.
But there’s no denying, theists, that this is unmistakably a “Bad God” scenario. If religion is somehow better than other human endeavors, then why is it just as prone to the same vulnerabilities? If religion is no different from any other human endeavor, then why is it still relevant other than as a crutch or coping method (and not a very good one, either)?
And then there’s the disconnect between what’s described in the babble and what’s actually practiced in reality. Why would a church need armed guards? If someone came in to kill people, then obviously that’s gob’s will. Since the congregation are xians, then those who die are going straight to heaven. None of them should be armed or kill in self- or others’ defense because then they would be deliberately sending an unsaved soul to hell.
After all, where is the spirit of the early martyrs we’re always hearing about, the willingness to suffer the persecution that’s supposedly still going on? If this church congregation were True Xians (TM), they would have stood up en masse and approached the gunman with open arms, trusting gob to either spare or strike them according to his will. Instead, they acted just like any other human being under the same circumstances; I thought xianity made you different, morally superior, capable of great sacrifice and bravery?
And then, as mentioned over on Pharyngula about the same incident, what would Jesus do (supposing for the sake of argument that he really existed as a historical figure who said and did most of what the babble says he said and did)? Would he have allowed armed guards at the Sermon on the Mount? Would he have allowed any one of his apostles to carry arms (although Peter still somehow managed to get hold of a sword in the Garden of Gethsemane)? If someone had attacked him, would he have fought back to the point of killing his assailant, or let anyone else kill his assailant in order to save his life? Remember, when Peter wielded that same sword in Gethsemane, he commanded him to stand down and let him be arrested.
Of course, once you discard the idea that gob as a concept in any form really exists, and that any human endeavor, including those that set themselves up as somehow better than others (like religion), is simply another human endeavor, then you clear the way to true, pure grief, about which all you can do is feel.
11 December 2007, on 4:32 pm
Why would a church need armed guards?
If this church congregation were True Xians ™, they would have stood up en masse and approached the gunman with open arms, trusting gob to either spare or strike them according to his will. Instead, they acted just like any other human being under the same circumstances; I thought xianity made you different, morally superior, capable of great sacrifice and bravery?
I was told by a Xian, that Xians are only human and most all of them don’t trust their Gob enough.
11 December 2007, on 6:34 pm
Can I just say that I believe. I’m not a Xtian but I will say that I think many people behave better because they believe.
We all struggle with wanting to know where he was when evil takes root and I can’t begin to answer that.
My father is a Jewish German refugee. I often wonder where G-d was and I often doubt the existence. Most of me believes, the rest of me carries a .45.
11 December 2007, on 6:36 pm
Ive often told my xian friends and acquaintances that, even if there were some irrefutable proof of gob’s existence, based on his track record, I wouldn’t give him the time of day. Jeebus, who would willingly submit to an utterly unpredictable, sadistic psychopath of a serial killer?
Someone made a comment over at Pharyngula that it wasn’t ideology that drove the killer in Colorado but, rather, poor mental health. I had to remind the gentleman that not only was some level of mental illness a prerequisite for one who falls in those monotheistic clutches but the combination of ideology with textbook psychiatric disorders is like gasoline to fire- or a snowball gathering mass on it’s way downhill, a snake eating it’s own tail, one foible constantly justifying the irrationality of the other.
Everybody has their own little tics and neuroses. Sometimes those quirks don’t interfere with a normal life- sometimes they can even help as in the case of obsessing over something that happens to offer a career in the subject. Moderate religious are plain eccentric and mostly harmless but it’s really their job to step in with those suffering the virulent, fundamentitis coloradospringsia* strain of their own personal sickness. Like an intervention, except with fists and electrodes.
*- like many microorganisms, fundamentitis coloradospringsia cells can be recognized under standard stereoscopes by their cruciate form- not to be confused with the trademark “Shepherd’s Crook” of Ebola.
What the fuck?
11 December 2007, on 6:58 pm
Too true, Star – and I would counter that if xians are “only human” and that “most of them don’t trust gob enough” anyway, then why bother going through the motions of xianity? They’re basically admitting they’re hypocrites, so why exactly is religion so much better than not if most people who join are going to ignore it in their hearts and minds anyway? (Rhetorical questions, of course; most of us agnostic/atheists have already asked and answered them for ourselves…)
11 December 2007, on 7:17 pm
I’m not a Xtian but I will say that I think many people behave better because they believe.
Sue Doe-Nim (#36) …really? Like the people who reject those who are mentally ill, like the epidemic problem of priests molesting boys, like those who invade other countries because god told them to, like those who fly planes into buildings because god told them to? Like those who beat up homosexuals out of simple hatred and bigotry. Like those who drag a black man behind their pick-up truck because of hate? The majority of the populations of the world are god believers, yet the world is full of violence, corruption, bigotry, hatred etc…so how can you justify your statement?
Oh…and here is a story about how belief makes people better
Dad Allegedly Kills Girl Over Head Scarf
11 December 2007, on 7:46 pm
Sue Doe-Nim says: “I often wonder where G-d was and I often doubt the existence. Most of me believes, the rest of me carries a .45.”
YES! What a great fucking compromise you’ve deluded yourself into! Good for you and fuck everyone else, right! Just make sure your hair is fixed up before you go on your righteous crusade.
We’re at war Sue, so pick a side, you fucking flip-flopping hypocrite. God or Gun? Which will it be? One or the other. You can’t rationally justify both. Well, you can if you are retarded or have the intelligence of a cnidarian. Anyway.
11 December 2007, on 8:59 pm
“Most of me believes, the rest of me carries a .45.”
Combine the two and that’s fucking scary!
11 December 2007, on 9:56 pm
Dear troll;
I know you’re still out there, so…
“I am amazed that you say you are thinkers, yet with that same breath deny logic when looking at the basics of the Bible.”
The “basics” of the Bible, when taken as a whole are neither logical, nor consistent.
“You may disagree with what the Bible says…
There’s no “may” about it. There are some good things in there, but there are some repulsive things as well that any decent individual should disregard wholeheartedly. Plus, the good stuff is not unique to the xtian Bible.
“…but to be intellectually honest, take it as any book and study its content within its context.”
First of all, it is generally xtian’s that claim that it is not just “any book,” so it puzzles me that you would make this statement. You create a straw-man by assuming folks here haven’t “intellectually honest(ly) studied the Bible. Most of us have, and, taking it as “any book” find it largely ridiculous at best and immoral at it’s worst. You assume we don’t like it because we haven’t considered it honestly–the opposite is true. I am an ex-fundamentalist.
You also mention “context”–by that I guess you mean “the time and place in which it was written,” which is as good an argument AGAINST the Bible as any I have ever heard. It was written by a barbaric iron age tribe, ignorant of science. Why would I use that as a basis of morality? That’s like asking Nicole Ritchie to be my dietician.
“But I understand that it is much easier to just be angry all the time.”
Wow, gotta admit, you actually pegged me on that one. Obviously, sarcasm doesn’t translate well to the written word, so I’ll just close by saying that your last comment isn’t even deserving of serious rebuttal.
11 December 2007, on 10:13 pm
Stardust I said MANY people behave better. Some are abhorrent and cloak themselves in religion. I am consistently horrified at what people do of their own free will and blame on religion. The Catholic Church pimped out their little boys for years and it, of course, was a direct result of their delusions and homophobia.
untempro what’s the war? Are you in a holy war that I don’t know about? I just stumbled on you guys and some of it sounded very logical and interesting. But are you talking about our war on terror? Are you at war with religious zealots?
Stardust, yeah, sorry I scare you but Los Angeles has been on tactical alert more times than I care to mention. My family is safer with it.
11 December 2007, on 10:36 pm
Sue Doe-Nim said: yeah, sorry I scare you but Los Angeles has been on tactical alert more times than I care to mention. My family is safer with it.
I was born and raised in Chicago and still live here so know all about “tactical alert”. How does living in a high-crime city justify a crazy god botherer carrying around a .45? You first try prayer and when that doesn’t work you go apeshit and start shooting?
Sue Doe-Nim said: Stardust I said MANY people behave better.
And take their oogie boogie gawd beliefs away and then how do they behave? That indeed is scary if that is the only thing making them “behave better.”
12 December 2007, on 12:45 am
Sue Doe-Nim says: [some bullshit]
Ugh! The war is in your perfectly compartmentalized head! For explanation of what is wrong with your reasoning see Star’s comment above. No wait, let me spell it out anyway: If you have God, then why bother with a gun, if you still need a gun, then why bother with God. See, your reasoning is at war with itself. Pick a side!
12 December 2007, on 1:00 am
Well, xianity IS a death cult. So… it’s just more martyr fodder for them, eh?
Sorry not to be so “sensitive” about this tragedy, but really… how is it any more tragic than the rest of the senseless brutality that goes on in the world?
12 December 2007, on 1:51 am
I’ll take a swat at this:
I speak for no 1 but myself – but it breaks my heart to see this sorta nonsense go on. To see the harm 1 human can inflict on another.
There have been so many victims, the tear ducts begin to dry. All that is left is arid rage.
‘…that tears might drown the wind’ – the Bard.
Way to segue from a plea for tolerance into a cheap generalization.
Any time you wanna go rounds on either subject, you let me know. I’m better informed than the garden-variety xtian.
Are you saying, then, that there was no ulterior plan in action here? Helluva slip, if so.
Well, in honesty, this is something of a backlash, considering how we seem to get blamed for everything under the sun, from teenagers shooting up schools, to VD, to STD’s, etc.
So while I feel that chord of empathy, my hands are a little wrung out. Sorry. You folks do way too many crazy ass things – you’re all over the news lately.
The ACTUAL quote was this:
In re: a creationist ‘biologist’ who got FIRED from his job for sneaking in under the radar.
Since bearing false witness is a central tenet in your worship, perchance you should look in a mirror 1st.
Sue:
I maintain that it’s not religion that drives people to commit these acts – crazy-ass is as crazy-ass does. Any large group of people is going to get a fringe lunatic or 2.
But, judging from the press, it’s an easier river to swim, for the mentally unfit.
Augustine once said, “Don’t judge a philosophy by its abuses.” But when the abuses outweigh the pluses? It’s gotta go.
I slot religion in along w/abusive relationships. It’s hard to let go of a destructive pattern if it’s familiar. & religion (the Abrahamic ones in particular) foster an unhealthy contempt for the flesh.
12 December 2007, on 6:09 am
Football player Kevin Everett is making a remarkable recovery from a spinal cord injury. Doctors and physical therapists are doing a equally remarkable job. So who do you think will get the final credit?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0712/nfl.kevin.everett/content.11.html
Of course, it will be the prayers that done it.
12 December 2007, on 9:31 am
I fail to understand something. Why bother asking “Where was God?” if there is no God? As this website proclaims “God is for Suckers!” then why concern yourself with something that does not exist? What difference does it make? Or put another way, what relevance does god have with these shootings?
12 December 2007, on 11:23 am
Bernarda,
From what I understand about Everett, it was the NFL’s new protocol of Therapeutic Hypothermia- cooling the body to 92 degrees via a catheter immediately to prevent the inflammation of the spinal cord from exacerbating the damage he suffered- that has him up and walking today. For this, he can thank former Dolphin linebacker, Nick Buonoconti, Nick’s son, Mark, who suffered a spinal cord injury himself on the gridiron in 1985, their Miami Project To Cure Paralysis, the publicity and resources directed at the problem by the life and death of Chris Reeve, and all the scientists/doctors involved in the research and experimentation.
So, I guess, prayers to one Superman or another are indirectly appropriate.
To the subject at hand, perhaps today’s well-dressed fundie ought to wear kevlar and ceramics under their Sunday best. They could take a page from the Mormon playbook and call it “Holy Underwear” or “Holy Under Armor” or, ooh, “Breastplates of Righteousnesstm!“.
12 December 2007, on 11:43 am
I fail to understand something. Why bother asking “Where was God?” if there is no God? As this website proclaims “God is for Suckers!” then why concern yourself with something that does not exist?
The reason we raise the question that way is to make our numerous Xian trolls who continually bombard the queue with their persistent proseltyzing to stop and consider the question and by questioning maybe, just maybe some will come to the realization many of us ex-xians came to that GOD WASN’T THERE BECAUSE HE DOES NOT EXIST.
I thought the last line of the post (which is capitalized) makes the point of the post obvious. Hope this clears that up for you.
Or put another way, what relevance does god have with these shootings?
This question you ask shows me you did not read the post or comment thread. You merely glanced at the headline. The point of the post is to show how god is NOT relevant because this god is NOT THERE, but living and breathing human beings are. You might try reading the actual post and all of the comments yourself before commenting. You would answer your own questions if you had.
12 December 2007, on 11:48 am
I have a habit of skipping mourning and proceeding directly to anger.
Of course, the usual platitudes spread by fundies often end up being a call for inaction, back-handed callousness, followed by propaganda that ends up trying to salvage the less-tragic bits as points in favor of a method that failed to prevent the tragedy.
12 December 2007, on 1:49 pm
In a nod to fairness and objectivity, I don’t think that any Christian (or any sane one, at least) would claim that being Christian causes god to surround them with an invisible and impenetrable shield that repels bullets. Rather, they would claim that being “saved” has to do with going to heaven in the afterlife they imagine exists.
That being said, I find it incredibly annoying when self righteous theist moralists proclaim in the aftermath of shooting massacres like this one that society is somehow at fault. People go on shooting rampages because prayer was taken out of the public schools, or because of violent video games or rap music or because of Darwin’s theory of evolution.
It is always tempting to try to find a larger meaning for why a tragedy happens when in fact the reason why these things happen is fairly simple. People with mental problems are able to obtain access to firearms, and because of their mental problems, they are incapable of seeing their victims as human beings. They feel no connection to them, so it is easier to kill them.
12 December 2007, on 2:09 pm
Tommy wrote: In a nod to fairness and objectivity, I don’t think that any Christian (or any sane one, at least) would claim that being Christian causes god to surround them with an invisible and impenetrable shield that repels bullets.
But the folks interviewed for television news talk about how god saved them while others died. How god helped the security guard shoot down the lunatic after he killed four people and injured several others. Even most moderate Xians say stuff like this even though they may not believe that they have ain impenetrable shield around them. Obviously most Xians realize this, and why the need for security guards. Reality trumps god beliefs.
Tommy wrote: the reason why these things happen is fairly simple. People with mental problems are able to obtain access to firearms, and because of their mental problems, they are incapable of seeing their victims as human beings. They feel no connection to them, so it is easier to kill them.
Tommykey…that about sums it up and what should be the focus in the news interviews, not how gawd helped survivors, or how god helped a person to kill the killer, etc. The focus should be on how a mentally ill person gains access to guns. Who is responsible for that?
12 December 2007, on 2:37 pm
Yeah, I know Star. I think it’s their coping mechanism to place meaning where none exists (the god saved me or why god didn’t save them talk).
12 December 2007, on 2:55 pm
My personal kudos to Keith Olbermann (RE Tuesday’s MSNBC “Count Down”) for designating Tony Perkins…the, current, very much alive, real world “Psycho”, fundie fuck…as the “Worst Person In the World!” for blaming Secularists for the shooting tragedy.
What an idiot!
At least SOME people (namely Keith!) have brains…and, indeed, some genuine “guts”…to nail these irrational creeps who get WAAAAY more time than they deserve on the major media outlets, like CNN etc!
Intellectually delusional morons like Perkins, Warren (Purpo$e Driven $trife), and the like; keep pooping up on various “Dead Zone-like” segments, with nary a sign of any rational critiquing representation…ala Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, or Harris.
I guess, now that we’re rapidly approaching the ultra-revved-up “Primary Circus” game; we wouldn’t want to confuse the ultra-delusional voters by actually being more rational…now would we?
And then there are the two dufuses (dufusi?)…Rom-nitwit and Fuckabee…pointing fingers at each other as to which one is the REALLY, REALLY (roll ‘R’s?)…genuinely ‘TRUE’…Xtian delusional, Sky-daddy, blow-job giver!
I guess Steve Allen’s “Dumbing down of America” has finally infiltrated ALL levels of society.
We can now look forward to (no matter who wins in 2008?)…after all the Neo-fuck Bush-shit prepping…not only to peon style, “Trickle Down Economics”…but, perhaps also, to…a new morphed-like and permanent, devolutionary…
“Dumb(fuck)ocracy”.
Yeah…Let’s hope I’m wrong.
“AAARRRRGH! (w. rolling Rs)…
BUTT…
Have a nice day!”
12 December 2007, on 3:13 pm
Stardust says:
“The reason we raise the question … is to make our numerous Xian trolls … come to the realization many of us ex-xians came to that GOD WASN’T THERE BECAUSE HE DOES NOT EXIST.”
This is very interesting. I don’t presume to know anyone here, so hopefully I don’t offend, but I’m having trouble relating to this. I’ve never known religion (not in the biblical form, nor any other). In my entire life I never had the issue of god come up as a serious point of contemplation at all.
That is not to say that I have not known dogmatism. In fact, my family escaped from behind the iron curtain, back when the curtain was still up in Europe, because the living conditions under those dogmatically totalitarian regimes were intolerable. So from a young age, in part influenced by my father, I learned to distrust any form of dogmatic authority: religious, governmental or otherwise.
Of course, as an idealistic young man I believed the promise of freedom in the West to be an absolute one, so imagine my disillusionment when I learned of the firm grip that a myriad of dogmatic entities have on freedom in the US.
But returning to my point above, I, as someone who is not a former member of a religion (I’ve never experienced a religious environment first hand) and never interacted with religious people in their (religious) environment, don’t have that point of reference that some of the ex-religious people here do. I don’t presume to put words in anyone’s mouth, but it seems to me that the ex-religious view the religious as people to be saved from religion. To me, the religious person is always the Other. They are the Others, from whom I (we) must save the future of humanity.
For me, it is humanity that is at stake here, not the individuals who may be rescued from religion. I can certainly see how both of these efforts can exist in a complementary equilibrium, however, I have to ask, and again, I repeat that I don’t mean to offend by this, are these goals contradictory or exclusive of each other from the point of view of a formerly religious person?
Is disproving the existence of god the same as destroying religion? I don’t think that it is. There are plenty of retarded superstitions out there that do not rely on god, but they are equally as dangerous. Perhaps I should have understood the name of this site in a more literal sense.
12 December 2007, on 3:52 pm
Actually, I for one, view religious people not as those who need to be “saved from religion”, but who need to actually read the Constitution of this country and keep their religion out of government and my life.
It is certainly not my “goal” to “save” people from religion. I do not evangelize atheism on the street corners. I do not knock on doors passing out literature that is anti-religion. I do not want to force anyone to give up their sky daddy beliefs. However, it is the goal of religious folks to try to force their beliefs on me. I want these self-righteous god botherers who knock on my door of my private residence to tell me I am doomed to Hell to leave me alone. I am sick of the atheist being blamed for destroying the country and causing the downfall of society (even though the majority of the population are god believers). It is the religious who discriminate and who trample on the civil rights of those who do not follow their religious views. It is the religious who continually ignore our Constitution and who continually chip away at the wall of Separation of Church and State.
An example of this is seen currently in the campaigning for the Presidency of this country. Candidates cannot get elected without sucking up to the religious right. No gob botherer will vote for an atheist no matter how qualified he or she might be. It seems as if they are running for the position of church pastor rather than leader of a secular government, of a nation made up of diverse peoples and many different beliefs.
And this being an atheist site, we hold the opinion that God is for Suckers, and this still being a free country, we are allowed the freedom to express that opinion. God is for Suckers is based on the saying “There is a sucker born every minute”. And the religious want us to also become suckers, and we aren’t interested in the scam they are trying to sell us.
12 December 2007, on 5:23 pm
Thanks for your answer, Stardust. I appreciate it. Ah yes, P.T. Barnum, indeed! I get the context of the name of this site, but I’m not sure that I understand the ex-religious position any better.
I was really asking more about the philosophical outlook of the ex-religious person rather than any practical considerations or intentions on the part of you, anyone else or this website.
I hope it is clear from my post(s) that I’m NOT a religious troll trying to insert a backdoor argument for religion. I have never in my entire life been anything other than an atheist. That is all I’ve ever personally known. I’ve dealt with religious people tangentially, such as through work, and I have mostly ignored (sometimes politely, sometimes not) their pleas and threats to join them in this or that.
Obviously, I don’t live in a bubble either. I know of the destructive effect religious people have on our society, culture and world and I agree completely with all that you said above about the intrusive and heavy-handed god botherer actions and tactics. It’s true and it sucks. Too bad we can’t just kill them, even though living with them is fucking hell right here on earth. And I agree with you about the presidential race issue, all the candidates suck god’s big fucking dick, yes they do. No need to convince me of any of this cause I’ve always already been there.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to be confrontational, but as much as I love to rage against the religious machine, I figured it would be good to also learn something about the people who have escaped from it. So I asked.
12 December 2007, on 6:14 pm
Untempro, I do not think of myself as ex-religious any more than I do as an ex-Santa Claus believer or an ex-mother’s backs can be broken by my stepping on cracks believer. Religion was simply spoonfed to me until my brain matured enough to fight it’s way out of that philosophical wet paper bag. So, while, yes, I recited the words as a child, I did not ever, in retrospect, make the choice to believe. When I did consciously reject that teaching, it was more of a drive on by that particular dead-end and not any reversal of direction.
While it would give me great joy for there to be no more religion in this world- or more specifically, my day to day world, the eradication of that cancer is not my goal, either. My goal is for those that way disposed to keep it the fuck to themselves, in the privacy of their own homes or places of worship. I don’t really care if they want to worship at an altar to Joe Pesci or Hanna Montana, the Geico Gekko or Spongebob Squarepants. I don’t care if they want to eat peyote buttons and contemplate their navels or smoke weed and send their menstruating women to the outhouse. I don’t care who they wish to suffer rugburn on their knees, elbows, or foreheads for or what part of their bodies they wish to distance themselves from. I don’t give a rat’s ass if they want to stupefy themselves into cerebral atrophy or withdraw from this wicked, wicked world- in fact, I wish they would because I like it just fine and wouldn’t mind sprucing it up a bit as I plan on staying.
I don’t care if they sacrifice gerbils to the gaping maw of their anus or make sexy time with rattlesnakes- Very Nice!. Just keep it the fuck out of my face and out of my government. There’s no law against being stupid but there is against bringing that stupid to the public square and trying to make everyone else that same brand of stupid.
One of two things is gonna happen. Either humankind will muddle through- at a glacial pace and accompanied by a trail of blood- to arrive where most of us already reside; postgod, posttheism, call it what you want. Or, our species will continue to befoul the already murky gene pool- with the intellectually challenged continuing to squeeze out litter after litter while those with a clue opt for the responsible course of family planning, resulting in our presence on the endangered species list followed by our extinction. Take heart, though, because, left to their own devices, free of wise council and reason, homo religioso will blow himself to kingdom come with visions of armageddon dancing in his head. So, they won’t outlast us by much. Sigh.
12 December 2007, on 6:29 pm
RDZ: While it would give me great joy for there to be no more religion in this world- or more specifically, my day to day world, the eradication of that cancer is not my goal, either….Just keep it the fuck out of my face and out of my government.
Yes, well said! Because otherwise it leads to horrors like the Nigerian child witch hunts.
12 December 2007, on 6:44 pm
After three decades of being a Xian, I saw from the inside how religious folks think they are better than everyone else, and pity the “outsider” and the “lost” who don’t “know Jeebus”. I saw how they have their pity parties, focus on the negatives in their lives and how they think this world is such an awful place, while fantasizing about an afterlife where streets will be paved with gold, where they will be reunited with their god believing relatives up on puffy, fluffy clouds in the sky while their non-believing, or wrong-believing relatives are eternally tortured in fiery pits of Hell.
As one who was a Xian, finally coming to “see the light” of the realization that Xianity is just mythology made up by human imagination is a true awakening. I came to understand that no god is going to help me. I must help myself and I am fortunate if I have family and good friends to be there for me.
12 December 2007, on 8:41 pm
thanks Raindogzilla and Stardust, I appreciate your comments. This is interesting for me because I personally never experienced the kind of departure from or rebellion against religion as you have – it was never forced down my throat – but I feel its effects in my life and I’m passionate about eradicating it from public culture. But without that point of reference sometimes I wonder if I’m being arrogant and intolerant, so then I need to remind myself: the religious are arrogant and intolerant, not me.
12 December 2007, on 9:08 pm
Just a second back on the post topic. According to what is being told here in Colorado, Matthew Murray posted a lot of nutty shit on an ex-pentecostal website. They have removed all of his post or I would link to it. Basically, he claims that his nutty ass mother was told by her nutty ass preacher that he was a future prophet of their faith and there was no way to stop it. So she “molded” him into the “perfect” Christian. This made him depressed, mommy and daddy sent him to the preacher. He is now more depressed. They send him to missionary program that he latter blasted to hell. He claims is kicked out because of his social “ugliness” but the ex-roommate said they booted him because claimed to be hearing voices. There were several posts of very weird shit on this “ugliness” idea. Most of the final posts were deranged rants on how much he hates Christianity and the hypocrisy of it all. There was one post between they shootings in which he basically promoted killing all Christians and glorified doing so.
All in all he was one fucked up guy. It almost seems as though he understood and possibly believed in the atheist perspective but he was trapped by his Mothers faith and the only way he could contemplate escape was via violence. The 1st shooting was only a couple of mile from my house so I’ve kept an interest.
12 December 2007, on 10:42 pm
But without that point of reference sometimes I wonder if I’m being arrogant and intolerant, so then I need to remind myself: the religious are arrogant and intolerant, not me.
). My sister is a fairly new Baptist and there isn’t anything more annoying than a newly “born again” xian. Her daughter is married to a youth Pastor and they have shunned pretty much everyone on my side of the family…us for being atheists, and the rest for not being “True Xians”. How arrogant is that!
untempro, that is what Xians accuse us of for simply rejecting their beliefs, no matter how gently we do it. Xians consider rejecting their beliefs as arrogance towards them, and intolerant because we refuse to listen to them, and refuse to allow them to have everything their way, according to their religion. My husband and I have been accused of being arrogant for not standing with our heads bowed at prayer time at family gatherings (we simply stay in the other room till it’s over with). We are accused of arrogance if we do not accept an invitation to go to a church service, etc. It’s not easy being the only atheists in the family, even when most are German Lutheran (now there is a sad and gloomy denomination!
I personally think it would be great to come from a non-religious/atheist family right from the start. I am glad that our three children will be raising their kids religion free.
13 December 2007, on 1:09 pm
Now the news reports that “Matthew Murray’s world was haunted by demons.”
Too bad he kept looking for help in superstition. It was religion and overly strict and crazy parents that fucked him up, but the sheeple will never admit that. (They insist he came from a “loving home”. They probably did love him, but in a warped kind of way.)
I know that many will blame homeschooling for this young man being fucked up in the head, but as one commenter stated, “home schooling should not be considered the cause of Murray’s downward spiral, just as public schools shouldn’t be blamed for a recent shooting rampage at an Omaha mall.” It was the oppression of crazy-ass religion. Oppressive parents. Weirdass curriculum and religious rules. Rejection when he wasn’t following the herd. Too bad someone could have helped him escape from all that crap.
13 December 2007, on 2:11 pm
#66 —– after reading that, the torture they put murray through, i wouldn’t blame him if he had taken all of them jeebus worshiting fucktard bastards with him. except that its not enough to just kill these motherfuckers, they deserve to be tortured for destroying murray’s life when he was so desperate to get out from under their bullshit.
#65 —– thanks again, Star, yeah, it would be nice, but my family isn’t perfect just because we are not religious. We still have problems and fight, just not about religion, but yeah, that is a huge plus because I can’t tolerate arguments devoid of realistic or intellectual content, and arguments about religion are just that – nothing – there’s nothing there to argue about, literally nothing at all. So in my family we argue and fight about other things, but we still argue and fight. anyway, i think maybe i should start a blog of my own to work through some of these questions. its funny, until you start talking you don’t really know how much you have to say. so yeah, i’m sorry, i kinda veered off topic on this thread.
13 December 2007, on 5:07 pm
While doing some research on this for my own post, I found this little tidbit about Jeanne Assam (I can’t find it now, but it was in one of the articles when I read it, and copy/pasted it):
So, in the past, she actually received training on how to react in such a situation. There goes any of the “by God’s grace” reasons that she was there. Of course the church would hire her as a security guard.
13 December 2007, on 6:01 pm
Berlzebub ^
Assam history and recent media dramatics provides another example of the self-righteous hypocrisy that the gunman was lashing out against. It doesn’t condone his actions, but is part of what caused his insane anger.
(And she was patting herself and her god on the back for killing the gunman, when in fact he shot himself.)
13 December 2007, on 6:24 pm
ah, so suicide-by-god it was not. good for murray, he gets the last laugh even from the grave.
13 December 2007, on 8:36 pm
IIRC, both she and the preacher/priest/grand pubah/whatever where saying she’d been the one to kill Murray. I read that the police said the gunman had shot himself, but it was too early in it for me to find that out for sure.
Some of the things he was saying seemed like he was actually lashing out against the “ex-pentecostals/ex-fundies”. Some of the stuff he said gave me the impression that he thought they weren’t being true xians. Of course, he was also bat-shit crazy, and them shunning him didn’t help that any.
It’s a shame that nearly all of the first paragraphs I read said “anti-christian”, but only a few sentences about him being turned away despite signs of mental illness showed up in the articles I looked at. If someone had thought “therapy” instead of “demons” before he was too far gone, this might have been prevented. At the very least, Murray may have been commited instead of free and getting firearms.
13 December 2007, on 8:54 pm
It’s a shame that nearly all of the first paragraphs I read said “anti-christian”, but only a few sentences about him being turned away despite signs of mental illness showed up in the articles I looked at.
This is what Xians do. They turn people away, shun them and say they are “praying for them”. Praying is just a way out of actually having to do something.
16 December 2007, on 4:06 am
[...] Stardust pointed out rightly, here, that there was an immense silence from on high – no intervention (outside the perceived nonsense that survival of this, or any incident, is indicative of such), no parting of the heavens, no blinding light, no angels stepping in, in short, no miracles whatsoever. Just another sloppy sentence in the book of humanity’s history. [...]