Guidebook for Muslims in space
7 October 2007 by StardustWhile we are quite busy keeping prayer out of schools, creationism out of our secular school science classrooms, the ten commandments and other religious crap out of government and other public buildings and property people are bending over backwards to accommodate the Muslim religion in the name of “religious tolerance”. While some of you may disagree with me, IMO this is going a wee bit too far.
Malaysia issues guidebook for Muslims in space
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) – Malaysia has come up with the world’s first comprehensive guidebook for Muslims in space as its first astronaut prepares to go into orbit next week.
This is getting fucking ridiculous.The book, entitled Guidelines for Performing Islamic Rites at the International Space Station, teaches the Muslim astronaut how to perform ablutions, determine the location of Mecca when praying, prayer times, and how to fast in space, the Star newspaper reported on Saturday.
How can they be so sure that they won’t be facing Mecca while taking a dump while in orbit? “Muslims are not allowed to face Mecca (nor turn their back to it) when sitting on the loo.”“The reason we formulated guidelines for Muslims in space is because we wanted to ensure our astronaut could fully concentrate on his mission, without having to worry about how he should perform his religious obligations in space,” Abdullah Md Zin, a minister for religious affairs, was quoted as saying.
HA! But, how can a Muslim astronaut fully concentrate on his mission if his religious obligations need so many special accommodations just to do his oogie-boogie rituals? [added note: an astronaut should be fully concentrating on the mission and if his/her religion is going to interfere with any of that, he should not be chosen to go on that mission.}
The 18-page guidebook will be translated into English, Russian, Arabic and possibly more languages for the benefit of future Muslim astronauts, he said.
Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, an orthopedic surgeon and university lecturer from Kuala Lumpur, will leave Earth from Kazakhstan’s Baikonur launchpad for Russia’s International Space Station (ISS) on Wednesday.
The 34-year-old Malaysian has said he will try to observe as much of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan in orbit as possible. The lunar month, during which Muslims fast from dawn to dusk, is due to end around October 13.
Saudi Prince Sultan bin Salman, who was the first Muslim in space, had said that although he managed to pray and fast, he was not able to face towards Mecca and could not fully kneel on the ground.
7 October 2007, on 12:58 am
MUSLIMS…IN…SPACE!
You’d think this directional thing would keep any strict Muslim from even venturing into outer space.
Still, he’s sounds fairly moderate, from his answers.com page.
Of course, if he’s an ME version of an IDiot, this could be used to show that there isn’t some vast leftie conspiracy to discriminate.
Will the excursion test his belief, or validate it? Time will tell…
7 October 2007, on 4:05 am
I foresee some major constipation! Imagine waiting until the thingie turns enough, so as not to offend Ollie…
I repeat: how can a culture be productive and progressive if you have to drop every-fucking-thing you’re doing FIVE times a day?
What morons!
7 October 2007, on 8:07 am
This guidebook only needs three rules:
1) Open airlock.
2) Remove helmet.
3) Go outside.
That should be simple enough for them to understand.
7 October 2007, on 9:10 am
It pisses me off how much the UK and other governments and businesses are bending over backwards to accommodate one religion’s “special needs”…prayer rooms in airports, wanting men and boys to stay away from their daughter’s school sports games whenever they play against a Muslim girl’s team ON PUBLIC SCHOOL TURF! (They are trying to get that passed in the Chicagoland and Detroit areas.) They are allowed to blast loudspeakers across whole neighborhoods five times a day with calls to prayers for Ollie, special rooms in schools for muslims and their prayer rugs, pork being removed from menus of schools and other places so as not to offend muslims. It’s getting fucking ridiculous how Muslims throw fits…and get their way over and over again! WTF! Why is this religion getting special treatment over any other superstitious beliefs?
7 October 2007, on 9:31 am
Luckily, we don’t live in the UK. This special privileges nonsense is just that…nonsense.
7 October 2007, on 9:31 am
Wasn’t this a skit on the old Muppet Show? Seriously, if you have to drop whatever scientific endeavor you’re engaged in to prostrate yourself to a chunk of black rock on a regular basis, your results are doomed to be, to paraphrase Colbert, “sciency”, rather than the more desirable scientific or the ultimate prize, peer reviewed.
Or…
If a Muslim prays in space and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?(note: the bell-like bong of forehead hitting capsule bulkhead doesn’t count nor do smart alecky reminders about sound vis a vis the vacuum of space.)
“This is Major Khan to Ground Control;
I’m ass-up on the floor, and I’m praying in a most peculiar way…
And Mecca looks very different today…
For here…am I Muslim in my tin can
far above the world..
My breakfast tube is pork so I’m fasting like a dork…
bomp’ b-bomp b-bomp, b-b-bomp’-bomp b-b(2X)
“This is Ground Control to Major Khan.
You’ve really got to be fucking kidding me.
And the Imam wants to know which way you shit.
Better eat, you’ll starve, you demented fuckwit.
Ground Control to Major Khan, your goat misses you…
7 October 2007, on 9:38 am
RDZ.. LOL! You HAVE to come back and start posting again. LOL!
7 October 2007, on 10:05 am
And would that be his fiancee?
I agree with Stardust, you HAVE to post more. That was hilarious
7 October 2007, on 10:18 am
If I were the mission captain, I would try to “accidentally” activate the thrusters to cause the station to turn while the Muslim guy was praying.
“Ooops, did I just fuck up your prayer? Sorry bout that!”
The ISS should become a religious free zone, at least for observant Muslims and orthodox Jews. If they don’t like it, let them build their own damned space stations.
7 October 2007, on 10:25 am
It’s interesting how some of Islam’s most important behaviors are pretty much invalidated in space – i.e., you can’t really face Mecca, you can’t effectively kneel or bow in low gravity, and “dawn to dusk” has basically no meaning whatsoever. This should be eye-opening for them. It should make it obvious that their most cherished beliefs were fabricated by small minds in a limited environment and it’s time to move on.
7 October 2007, on 10:31 am
Lol, RDZ. Bowie would be proud.
The bigger question is would he still sound like a fucktard?
7 October 2007, on 10:32 am
Doh! Would HE still sound like a fucktard…
Rev…fixed (by the fix-it fairies
)
7 October 2007, on 10:41 am
tommy, that would make such a hilarious comedy sketch or bit in a movie. Hey, a movie titled simply “Muslims in Space” could be another box-office hit…and most likely cause worldwide rioting and slaughter and death threats!
7 October 2007, on 11:16 am
Star, I was thinking it would be really funny to have a Muslim astronaut and an orthodox Jew astronaut stuck together on the ISS.
7 October 2007, on 11:18 am
tommy,throw in a Catholic with his prayer beads, holy cards, holy water and plastic dashboard Jeebus and/or Mary statuettes.
7 October 2007, on 11:41 am
I think the religious folks in space is a great idea… but how are we going to find a big enough rocket to get them all up there?
7 October 2007, on 12:04 pm
We could tell some of them (i.e. catholicks) that NASA found an impression on one side of the moon that looks like the virginian mary; the mudslims we could say it spells allah; and the rest tell them it looks like jeebus. And on that particular spot they don’t need helmets, cause gawd’ll protect ‘em.
7 October 2007, on 12:14 pm
Just another reason that, despite all the ‘recent’ Scientific advances…the future of the human species is in SERIOUS doubt.
Is it possible there’s a…as yet undiscovered…evolutionary “fuckwit” gene that, like a self-destructing, morphing virus, always manages to “fuck with” humanity?
Where are the serious TRUE scientists in the space program when it comes to making decisions about the practical eligibility of potential astronauts. I’d love to hear Dawkins’and Hitchens’ response to all this insanity!
What’s next…delusional reports of Mohammered riding by the space station on his winged horse…waving & giving the finger(?)…chastising the Muslim moron for being off target whilst praying and crapping.
Like RDZ, I immediately thought of the “Pigs in Space” Muppet routine.
Maybe: “Pork-Dork-Praying Ass-wipes in Space”?
As for Revenant’s LOL guidebook suggestion; I’d only add two things:
1) Grab your fucking Koran
2) Open airlock.
3) Remove helmet.
4) Go outside. (We’ll close the airlock after you!)
5) Shove the Koran up your ass!…whilst we get it on video for the news media!
[OK...I know...its only a fictional guidebook...
he'd have to quickly open an ass flap...yada, yada.]
YIKES…Has the Space Program finally gone TOTALLY bonkers now? Religion has LITERALLY infected everything, it seems.
What a contrast from my…albeit flawed…memory of the 1960s’ era!
7 October 2007, on 12:59 pm
AHAHAHAHA! TROLL ALERT! ~ moderator Stardust here… it’s easier to address your comment point by point . . .
Hey, why the hate? This is a totally reasonable suggestion. This guidebook won’t convert anyone to Islam,
Who said we hated anyone? We just think their beliefs are dumbass.
as for the guidebook…um….he’s supposed to be WORKING and being paid with tax dollars to do so! No one says he can’t pray in his own mind, many astronauts have some sort of religious beliefs but don’t need special accommodations and don’t obviously allow those beliefs to interfere with the job at hand.
and there’s no reason to privilege other religions over Islam.*
SO let’s just use all our tax dollars for astronauts to go up and worship their sky daddies and imaginary friends instead of WORKING! geesh! There is no reason to “privilege” ANY religion at all.
Unlike prayer in schools, preventing non-Muslim men from attending girls’ soccer games at public schools, or displaying religious sentiments on public property, this guidebook and prayer rooms in airports don’t infringe upon anyone else’s behavior.
But it does affect other people. It costs more money for these extra accommodations, and that money comes out of pockets of others who will never use and don’t care about prayer rooms, etc. Just imagine if airports and other places tried to accommodate every religion there is! Imagine the mayhem!
It makes sense to accommodate the religious quirks of others in these circumstance- because honestly, as atheists, religious beliefs shouldn’t matter to us until they impede everyone else’s ability to believe what they like.
(First of all, I doubt you are an atheist.) Their minds should be on SCIENCE and their MISSION they are being PAID WITH TAX DOLLARS to do! If your religion is going to interfere with that mission, don’t become a fucking astronaut! Imagine if all astronauts or workers in companies or travelers in airports demanded special religious accommodations. Like I said, it’s fucking ridiculous.
Besides, suggesting that one needs to give up religion in order to pursue scientific discovery will probably create a backlash against science, whereas understanding and tolerating the presence of religious people in science will probably create more atheists (or at least fewer zealots) than it will creationist-types.
No one is asking you to give up your religious beliefs, we are talking about special accommodations and allowances for practicing the rituals that go along with the beliefs. I am suggesting that god botherers leave their rituals and routines to practice on their own time or find jobs that are more accommodating if you feel the need to practice your superstitious rituals all day long. Science and superstition just don’t mix well.
*Plus it really makes sense for countries with large Muslim populations. And since Malaysia is thoughtfully translating it into other languages, nobody else will need to spend time or money worrying about it.
We have to worry about a muslim or other god botherer putting religion first over his JOB he was paid to do, and the safety of the crew, and the goals of the mission. People shouldn’t be paid for practicing their religion on paid company time.
((Also, as someone else pointed out, this guy seems pretty moderate, so why is this listed under the Crazy Fundies tag? One would think we’d save the Crazy Fundies tag for the religious groups who criticize the whole notion of Muslims in space. And what’s up with the goat jokes? That’s just tasteless.))
He is listed under Crazy Fundies because anyone who goes to this extent to practice his/her religion IS a Crazy Fundie! As for the goat “jokes”…it’s based on real Muslim beliefs …read the Koran sometime and what is says about sex with animals.
((Also note: Having once attempted fasting for a month, and having known people who celebrated Ramadan, I will admit that fasting can make one slightly more lethargic than usual.
Uh….ya think??? Think someone who is “lethagic” is capable enough to man a space station? I don’t think so!
However, a lot of that has to do with how well one manages one’s food/sleep intake,
which would mean this astronaut requires special treatment and consideration which is not fair to the rest of the crew.
so I really don’t think that a 30-something guy or girl who has observed Ramadan before will have enough trouble with it to interfere with their mission.
It still has NO PLACE on a publicly-funded space mission. Astronauts need to be at their best all the time. Not a time to be fasting IMO. (Also, the average age of astronauts is the mid-40s)…
Plus, space travel messes up everyone’s eating/sleeping patterns, so again, I doubt this particular thing will be any more trouble than they would have had already. Besides, Muslims are allowed to break fast if they are having difficulties observing it.
Then why is special accommodations needed when it’s not that big of a deal and their sky daddy doesn’t care if they change the rules?
One of my friends just did because he got sick. Muslims just make up the missed days later.
Just like Christians and other god believers, you make up your gods and religions to however YOU want it to be according to your own needs and desires and convenience. Humans make their own gods, and their own characteristics of those gods, and they make up and are constantly adjusting the rules to whatever suits you and your lifestyle, morals, etc.
Menstruating women are also expected to break fast and make the missed days up later.))
Islamic sky daddy beliefs are silly as any other.
7 October 2007, on 7:44 pm
wow star, that was a bit harsh.
I agree, that for many of us, the idea of having to make special rules for the god botherers seems more than a touch on the ridiculous side, but that being said, i think that poster (number 19) made a few well reasoned points and is hardly a troll.
Thier point about exposing ourselves to a potential backlash is (I think) a particularly valid one, and even the other points, while you might not agree with them, seem to have been made in the spirit of open debate. Shouting them down like that hardly helps.
anyhow, that’s my thoughts on it. I read GiFS just about daily and usually find much (ok most) that i agree with. But if we start accusing anyone who has a slightly different take on things of providing aid and comfort to the enemy, we’re no better than those same nutjobs that are the bane of many of our daily lives.
7 October 2007, on 7:53 pm
an american in melbourne,
We appreciate your readership, and whlie we may agree on most things, we aren’t going to agree on all things.
wuliuqiba had more than a “little different take on things”. It would be ridiculous to provide special accommodations for every religion that exists in this crazy world. Make exceptions for one, then another will want it, and another and another. Shall we just don the burqa’s now and be done with it? Give up and stand by on the sidelines while the religious and the superstitious have their way all around us? Shall we just let the Christian right have their ten commandments displayed in our courthouses, make children say prayers in schools, learn about creationism side by side evolution all paid for with our tax dollars? All because we wouldn’t want to offend them? Shall we pay for holding prayer meetings in space. We already “tolerate” prayer breakfasts by politicians using our tax dollars. Where does it end? As we have seen already, give ‘em an inch and they will take a million miles.
Why is it that when we address Christians in such a manner it is not considered “too harsh”? We post poopy Jeebus and everyone laughs. When we criticize the Scientologists, the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses, and any other religions there are no complaints. But when we do exactly the same thing to muslims, we are told to be “tolerant and considerate” of their beliefs because of fear of “backlash”. I don’t get it. Do we fear backlash from crazy-ass evanglicals who would love to turn the USA and other free and secular nations into theocracies for Jeebus? As for backlash against science, it’s already too late to worry about that with the fundies of Islam or Evangelical Xianity because this backlash against science is firmly implanted into their belief system and they already are anti-science.
And yes, wuliuqiba, with a fake email address, and no website, and is a one time, drive-by troll who just hits and runs. Maybe I should have just written a separate comment in response instead of the point by point response directly into his comment, but it just hit a nerve. Why should we allow any astronaut special accommodations for this religious practices during a government-funded expedition? Like I said, we can “asshat” any other religion and everyone joins in the bashfest. but muslims are getting things more and more their way, along with playing on the sympathies of “tolerant” people who give in to their demands.
In the GifS header it states
Believers everywhere. That includes all superstitious beliefs, including Islam. If you really look into what is being taught in their mosques in the western world, it is their mission to gradually take over the world little by little for their invisible sky daddy, Ollie. We have the Evangelical Xians (and the moderate Xians might end up joining them) in one corner, and Islam in the other, and moderate Islam also hopes one day all bowing to Mecca five times a day.
They are free to their own beliefs, they are free to worship any gods they want to, they can have churches and mosques that are tax exempt. But that is not enough for them. Must we allow them to permeate all of society with their superstitious beliefs and force all of us “tolerate” it?
7 October 2007, on 9:14 pm
Isn’t Mecca the center of the universe? Do Muslims think the sun revolves around it still?
I think I can solve the problem anyway. Whenever the toilet is facing Mecca, make it transmit a shock on any ass that comes within 6 inches of it.
If the astronauts are a mixture of religious faiths, Muslims can wear a special monitor that is taped on one of his ass cheeks and only it can receive shocks when the toilet is facing Mecca.
7 October 2007, on 10:53 pm
BEAJ, come to think of it, since we have so many satellites and probes in space, how come we haven’t found Elijah Muhammad’s mother ship circling the Earth?
8 October 2007, on 9:20 am
Wasn’t it a frozen turd from one of the shuttles?
8 October 2007, on 1:23 pm
Stardust,
You go girl!
8 October 2007, on 2:38 pm
666,
Thanks! I am sick of these superstitious freaks dictating how we are supposed to “tolerate” and make special accommodations for their sky daddy rituals.
8 October 2007, on 6:40 pm
I agree completely Stardust. I would imagine that the knowledge/science required to go into space would melt a zealot’s brain. The author is too stupid to understand that any Muslim that have already been to space are probably just providing lip service to the nutasses around them as to not get stoned to death.
wuliuqiba – What??????????? This sounds like a 12 yr. old trying to be fair. Not an Atheist.
8 October 2007, on 8:39 pm
As Hitchens asked in this months Free Inquiry: “What Century is This?”
The first image I had when I read this article was Fred Flinstone orbiting the earth in a hollowed-out boulder carried by a giant pterodactyl.
WTF wuliuqiba?:
“Having once attempted fasting for a month…I will admit that fasting can make one slightly more lethargic than usual…Plus, space travel messes up everyone’s eating/sleeping patterns… ”
Think what the two combined do to a person!–all the more reason to leave your superstitious eating and pooping habits on earth, where you can tell dusk from dawn. One should not be fasting in space (or spending energy mumbling to yourself compulsively 5 times a “day” [whatever that is in space] worrying about facing some arbitrary mecca [wherever that is in space], or worrying about whether you’re “shitting at mecca” [good name for a band, BTW--you can use it if you like] while your shipmates count on you to be at your best for the mission and their survival.
Jeff (post 10)–sorry, that’s probably wishful thinking. Regretably, people such as this tend to (proudly and outwardly) prioritize their superstition over their science when the two come in conflict–even more reason for those needing this guidebook to not be in space in the first place.
BTW RDZ–fucking hillarious lyrics. I laughed so hard I nearly “shit at mecca” (see, it’s fun to say) when I read them–Bowie would indeed be proud.
Stuff like this post is depressing–the EU is going to politcally correct themselves into a muslim theocracy with all this cultural relatavism bullshit if they stay on their current path.
8 October 2007, on 9:47 pm
“shitting at mecca” [good name for a band, BTW
LOL….hilarious!
8 October 2007, on 11:08 pm
look those are all fair points, but if I may stir the pot just a little (and forgive me, I can never remember how to do blockquotes):
“Make exceptions for one, then another will want it, and another and another. Shall we just don the burqa’s now and be done with it?”
I think this is a bit of long bow to draw. My view is that the fundies are certainly free to practice their voodoo as long as it doesn’t intrude on our rights and they don’t try to convert us. I think that if an astronaut wants to perform their rituals in their free time (and this is key!), we can’t tell them not to – as long as they don’t expect the rest of the crew to join in and their behaviour doesn’t interfere with the rights of their crewmates. It’s a big leap from allowing this to mandating burqas.
“Give up and stand by on the sidelines while the religious and the superstitious have their way all around us? Shall we just let the Christian right have their ten commandments displayed in our courthouses…”
Again there’s a difference between saying that one group is allowed to observe their belief and all groups are required to follow this system.
“Shall we pay for holding prayer meetings in space. We already “tolerate” prayer breakfasts by politicians using our tax dollars.”
A fundamental difference here is that ‘we’ are not paying for anything. The US government isn’t producing this book, Malaysia is. Unlike the US (despite the best hopes of our xian brethren) Malaysia does have an official religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Malaysia). For better or for worse, there’s no separation of mosque and state. So if they want to spend their citizen’s money promoting dogma, we might not like it, but for us to insist otherwise smacks of cultural imperialism.
“Why is it that when we address Christians in such a manner it is not considered “too harsh”? … But when we do exactly the same thing to muslims, we are told to be “tolerant and considerate””
I guess for me it comes down to protecting the rights of the minority. I think that muslins are just as deluded as anyone else that talks to an imaginary friend. That being said, muslims have been the victims of hate crimes and harsh treatment in the US (probably to a greater degree than the non-religious), and it just doesn’t feel right to me (probably some residual guilt from being raised catholic) to add my voice to the chorus putting down ‘the other’.
“Do we fear backlash from crazy-ass evanglicals who would love to turn the USA and other free and secular nations into theocracies for Jeebus?”
Yes. Yes I do. I won’t stop putting my views out there, but I’m cognizant of the very real risk that if we pose too much of a threat to their system, they will have no hesitation in using it against us. Look at the continual ‘poor picked on xian’ refrain you get from some folks trying to paint us in the reality based community as the baddies.
“And yes, wuliuqiba, with a fake email address, and no website, and is a one time, drive-by troll who just hits and runs.”
You’re probably right, but I still found their arguments a lot more reasoned and dispassionate than what usually passes for debate amongst the true nutjobs.
Anyhow, I think the beauty is that unlike amongst the religicos, those of us on the other side of the fence can disagree about things.
So thanks for hearing me out.
9 October 2007, on 12:27 am
Hey, thanks for the support, melbourne. And Stardust, I’m sorry that by delurking for only one comment I come off as an illiterate troll. I realize, of course, that you probably get more trolls de-lurking and making single comments than you do reasonable commentators, but I had hoped that I had expressed myself in a calm and non-inflammatory manner. Given that I haven’t posted here before, I can see how it would be reasonable to assume that I was lying about being an atheist in order to score points, but I’m sure we agree that it is possible to consider prayer rooms in airports an issue of practicality rather than special accommodation and still be an atheist. (Since people are going to pray with or without one and non-believers can still use the room, it’s just more convenient for me not to trip over religious people when I’m late for my flight. Plus they can always be converted to another use later on.)
Part of my concern with this post was that a few comments were less about the goofiness of the beliefs and more about stereotypical depictions of Muslims. Sure, it’s totally retarded to worry about which direction you pray to your fictional sky-daddy when you’re on Earth (never mind SPACE), but assuming that because he’s a Muslim, he’s just some dumb goat-fucking yokel with absolutely no scientific training is way out of line. That just fits in too well with the “Muslims are savages, let’s bomb/invade them in order to liberate them from themselves” disease-of-the-mouth that’s been going around the West and especially the xian fundies. Let’s save the Crazy Fundie tag for those who really are out of their minds, like the people who want to stone rape victims or the “pro-lifers” who kill doctors. Compared to them, the dude who can apply enough science to land a job on a space station is Charles Fucking Darwin.
I would like, however, to clarify a point I made about fasting and lethargy. The main reason that I was lethargic was because I had no experience with fasting. Healthy adult people who have fasted before do not have the same problems. I also find it unlikely that those fasting during space travel will be significantly worse off than others. Fasting astronauts will be eating the same amount of food, just at a different time. Since what gets messed up is one’s sense of time and not one’s ability to digest food or anything like that, I imagine there wouldn’t really be a difference between those who fasted and those who didn’t because they’d all have fucked up schedules- different fucked up schedules, but not significantly less or more fucked up. Luckily we don’t have to rely on my inexpert opinions; we can just wait and see if the space station crashes in the next few days.
Apart from that, I really have nothing substantially different from melbourne’s comments in #30, so I’ll just go back to lurking. Thanks!
9 October 2007, on 9:26 am
Part of my concern with this post was that a few comments were less about the goofiness of the beliefs and more about stereotypical depictions of Muslims.
wuliuqiba, I see you did come back after all, and since you did come back to respond and not merely a one-time troll,I have left your second comment as it was without my commentary.
“Stereotypical” muslims HAVE THE SAME GOOFY BELIEFS…they go together, they just abide by laws of the land they move to, are born into, live in, but most do not necessarily agree with the way the western world lives. They teach their kids to stay away from the infidels, they want more and more special accommodations and allowances for their beliefs and practices. When a Christian wants a the ten commandments posted in a hillbilly courthouse, the FFRF and American Atheists are right their to tell the nearly 100% hillbilly evangelical xian citizens of that town that they CANNOT have the display…BUT no one protests whenever Muslims want a prayer room in a busy International airport or special accommodations in an INTERNATIONAL space station funded with taxpayer money from several nations.
Religious beliefs of any kind ARE goofy and making special accommodations for people’s religious rituals while doing a job the governments are paying them to do is not acceptable.
wuliuqiba, do you really KNOW what Muslims teach in their mosques? Do you not realize that like Christians that though many seem “moderate” that these religions teach that they must “win” others to their side for their god? Most moderates of Xianity and Islam are so complacent that if it came down to it, would not protest a theocratic rule (by their respective religions) and would just let it happen? Though they seem peaceful and wanting to get along peacefully (though they do not “mix” with we “heathens”, it is Islam’s teachings to be good citizens, get elected to office, and then take over governments and then the countries and then the world for Ollie. (The religious right would also love to make the world “one Earth under Gawd”.
REALLY study what “peaceful” Islam teaches.
I know we live in a diverse world, and we all must live in this world and get along. I don’t care what anyone else believes as long as they can do so without trying to impose those beliefs on me, and into our SECULAR government. The Muslim population is growing rapidly in the Chicagoland area. Mosques with golden domes are being built to shine above the treetops…and their “calls to prayer for Allah” are blasted through neighborhoods over loudspeakers and it is allowed…because of “religious tolerance”. If anyone wanted to blast heavy metal from even one loudspeaker once a day, police would put a stop to it. They are still fighting to keep males away from their daughter’s sports teams when they play against other girl school teams. AND they want to be able to wear their veils while playing instead of abiding by the league’s uniform code.
Things are changing and while we are fighting against Christian theocracy, the Muslims are working their way towards an Islamic one. Just look at what is happening in the UK and Netherlands and other places in Europe.
9 October 2007, on 9:48 am
I guess for me it comes down to protecting the rights of the minority.
melbourne, I am all for protecting the civil rights of minorities, however because they are a “minority” culture, we have to go out of our way to appease and accommodate their sky daddy delusions? The Xian religious right are a minority, shall we just stop protesting their commandments being placed in their hillbilly courthouses in southern states? I mean, the hillbilly fundie politicians there might want to read them on their free time and we should be more tolerant, shouldn’t we?
Where does it end? How much do we continue to accommodate their beliefs and rituals?
And why the need for a special book? and why the need to PUBLICIZE the astronaut bringing the special book? Isn’t quietly carrying this book,along with a Koran enough (like the some Xian astronauts might bring their Bible)? If it wasn’t publicized and made a big deal of…no one would even know! But fundies from all religions want to show how self-righteous they are and be a “witness” to all.
Malaysia may have paid for the little muslim astronaut instruction book, but the astronauts are being paid with government tax dollars to do a job. If their rituals are don’t interfere, fine. BUT, as long as they are aboard the space station, they are government employees. It disturbs me to even think about what would happen if all the astronauts going to space wanted to take along their religious paraphernalia and perform their “sacred” rituals. (This film we talked about making could be really funny if we did one titled “multi-cultural religious fundies in space!”
but assuming that because he’s a Muslim, he’s just some dumb goat-fucking yokel with absolutely no scientific training is way out of line. That just fits in too well with the “Muslims are savages, let’s bomb/invade them in order to liberate them from themselves”
But why weren’t you here complaining then when we are feeding Christians to lions, making fun of backward Christian creationists who believe that the world was created in six days? Why aren’t you protesting on other posts when many commenters here call Christian fundamentalists “delusional sheeple”, and “inbreds”? You laugh and poke fun along with us when it comes to making fun of Xian believers in general. But making fun of the whole delusional beliefs of Islam is off limits for some reason. Why are muslim moderates better than xian moderates? We have talked here often about the attitudes of Christian moderates.
And I didn’t say we should bomb and invade them (as the extremists in Islam have done to others, including taking down skyscrapers by crashing airplanes into them). But accommodating the “moderates” and being “tolerant” so far has only allowed them to get their way more and more often.
10 October 2007, on 6:49 pm
Hey, thanks for the chance to let my words speak for themselves. It’s great that we can have an open discussion about things without feeling pressured to suppress or censor ourselves- It gives us the opportunity to reconsider things. For example, after thinking about it for a while, I have to change my position on prayer rooms in airports. While I do think rest or waiting areas are a good thing and shouldn’t be considered off-limits to those who want to prostrate themselves on the carpet habitually, calling them “prayer rooms” and designing them with no other functions in mind is an excessive religious intrusion upon the public sphere. But lest this comment get gooier than a piece of taffy in the sun, allow me to speak about some places where our minds agree less. Pardon me for not being able to manage blockquotes; I hope it won’t be too difficult to read.
Stardust:
““Stereotypical” muslims HAVE THE SAME GOOFY BELIEFS…they go together, they just abide by laws of the land they move to, are born into, live in, but most do not necessarily agree with the way the western world lives. They teach their kids to stay away from the infidels, they want more and more special accommodations and allowances for their beliefs and practices.”
True, Muslims all have the same ridiculous beliefs in a sky-daddy and so on. But just as there are Xtians and Xtian fundamentalists, there are Muslim moderates and Muslim fundies. What’s distressing about the use of stereotypes in this case is that it ignores the existence of Muslim moderates- and ties into some racial and ethnic stereotypes as well. I mean, when we describe “Major Khan,” and his goat/wife, what are we picturing? I betting Major Khan does not appears white- probably an Arab. And the goat probably isn’t living in a particularly nice dwelling. This sort of stereotype ignores the reality of Muslims who are of white, Asian, black, Latino, or mixed-race background. And it ignores the existence of Muslims who are not poor, who are well-educated, and who live outside of the Middle East. Why is it necessary to conflate race, fundamentalism, ignorance, and poverty with a collection of beliefs and practices that are performed by so varied a group? To be sure, there are Muslim fundies- but this astronaut isn’t one of them. As you point out, religious moderates of any religion are still mock-worthy. So why isn’t it funny enough to joke about an otherwise intelligent guy worrying more about how to perform pointless rituals in space than why exactly these oh-so-terribly important rituals make little sense once one isn’t on Earth? Why is it necessary to play into racial stereotypes in order to criticize? And why do we forget that Muslim moderates exist- and not even in limited numbers?
Because there are many Muslims who don’t support the actions of Muslim fundies- for example the President of the Muslim Canadians Congress, Muslim feminists in Pakistan, African-American Muslims, and most of the Muslim international students on my campus generally aren’t in favor. And, while you wonder “what Muslims teach in their mosques,” I have to point out that not every mosque teaches the same thing. If Muslims shared some sort of Monolithic Hive Mind, we wouldn’t have Sunnis or Shiites, nevermind the Sufi mystics.
And that’s the attitude I object to- not the mocking of Muslim rituals or beliefs, but the consistent depiction of Muslims. I don’t feel the need to comment on similar depictions of Xtians because, for the most part, everyone on this site knows there are Xtian moderates and doesn’t treat them the same way they treat godbags like Rick Santorum or the late unlamented Jerry Falwell. I’m not arguing that you treat every Muslim as a moderate, or that you refrain from belittling Muslim moderates- only that you criticize Muslim moderates with the same intensity and approach as you do Xtian moderates.
It doesn’t do to act as if all Muslims agree with the fundies who seek to spread the faith through violence- especially without knowing that most Muslims follow (or at least believe they follow) rules against proselytizing. It doesn’t do to say that someone should “REALLY study what “peaceful” Islam” is about without knowing that most Muslim moderates don’t suffer a case of the vapors every time their children bump into a non-Muslim in the hallway, or acknowledging that many Muslims (like those of other religions) are imperfect followers of their religion. If I had a quarter for every international student I’ve met who was a Muslim but smoked, I could do quite a bit of laundry right now. If I had a buck for every Muslim who was dating outside their religion- even excluding those who were ostracized from the families because of it- I’d be really, really, really happy right now.
But I digress. It’s unproductive to start with the “I know more about X than you do” routine- or even to quote from individual Muslims like Dr. Aminah McCloud, who both believe in their religion and the separation of church and state. Suffice to say that, although we see conflicts between secular and Muslim forces on the international stage and within nations, it is hyperbole to insist that this these are the actions of every Muslim or even to suggest that this is what every Muslim wants. It is unreasonable to the highest magnitude to assume that somehow, the laws of human nature predisposing us to contrariness are somehow suspended worldwide for Muslims. Moderates aren’t blameless, but they sure as hell aren’t fundies! So let’s show moderates of the Muslim variety the same “mercy” we show the Xtian variety and let’s save the crazy fundies tag- and related jokes- for those who are actually fundamentalists.
And before I conclude, I also must confess that I found the insistence that these fairly simple actions would constitute an inability to adequately perform on a space station. It certainly seems to me that if female astronauts can stick a tampon in during zero-g without being considered unable to perform their duties, we can expect Muslims to perform their jobs as least as well.
10 October 2007, on 8:15 pm
So let’s show moderates of the Muslim variety the same “mercy” we show the Xtian variety and let’s save the crazy fundies tag- and related jokes- for those who are actually fundamentalists.
When you must take your mystical rituals and superstitions into space with you, you are a fundamentalist.
Which side would most moderately religious folks choose when it came down to being forced into a theocracy (by a sect of their own religion) or risking their lives to fight for freedom? Moderate Christians have the same attitudes towards non-believers as Fundamentalists and most moderates would not vote for an atheist for public office no matter how moral, no matter how experienced and qualified, and no matter how squeaky clean of a record he or she has.
See the post…Pat Condell on Islam and see what he has to say. While like moderate Christians, moderate Muslims might cherry-pick from their Koran and make their religion into any way they see fit (thank human goodness), the Koran says what it says…and too many in Islam choose to take their holy text literally (and stone people to death for adultery or premarital sex…hang homosexuals, chop off limbs of thieves…it’s unbelievable that this happens in the year 2007. Check out the site Apostates of Islam to see what ex-Muslims have to say about the “religion of peace”.)
10 October 2007, on 8:17 pm
It certainly seems to me that if female astronauts can stick a tampon in during zero-g without being considered unable to perform their duties, we can expect Muslims to perform their jobs as least as well.
This comment pisses me off as a woman. There is a very big difference between a natural bodily function that a woman has no control over, and oogey boogy magical sky daddy rituals.
11 October 2007, on 4:22 pm
Yes, menstruation is a biological function, and not a choice, but since you argued that we shouldn’t let people into space because the moderate physical activity involved in prayer was too debilitating, I think it’s totally reasonable to spread that logic around a little.
11 October 2007, on 5:13 pm
“When you must take your mystical rituals and superstitions into space with you, you are a fundamentalist.”
Uh, no. Dude praying in space is not the same as the dude stoning “witches,” thanks. I find it hard to believe that a hardline Muslim would even want to leave Earth, if it meant following the Koran got more difficult. Besides, if a fundie went into space, wouldn’t they want to do something a little more extravagant than record things for science? Like, use a laser to carve religious texts on the surface of the moon or blow up the countries of unbelievers or something?
This astronaut just is motherfucking goofy, not dangerously deluded. If he insists he saw God personally flinging fireballs down from the heavens at unbelievers, then we’ll talk. But until then, he’s just another idiot moderate, not a fundie.
“See the post…Pat Condell on Islam and see what he has to say. While like moderate Christians, moderate Muslims might cherry-pick from their Koran and make their religion into any way they see fit (thank human goodness), the Koran says what it says…and too many in Islam choose to take their holy text literally (and stone people to death for adultery or premarital sex…hang homosexuals, chop off limbs of thieves…it’s unbelievable that this happens in the year 2007. Check out the site Apostates of Islam to see what ex-Muslims have to say about the “religion of peace”.)”
You know I’m not saying there aren’t ANY Muslims doing shitty things in the name of their religion, right? What I am saying is that insisting that calling moderate Muslims as extremists is wrong and counter-productive. It’s bad policy to make religious people feel like they have a choice between theocracy of their own device and an atheistic version of the same, rather than a choice between theocracy and freedom. Anyway, while your sources are interesting, I don’t see how they really prove Islam to be an inherently more awful religion than any other. I mean, examine this sentence:
“While like moderate Christians, moderate Muslims might cherry-pick from their Koran and make their religion into any way they see fit (thank human goodness), the Koran says what it says…”
What does this even mean? “While moderates don’t follow everything their holy book tells them, the book still says stuff?” Fine, fair enough. But flip the religions around and replace ‘Koran’ with ‘Bible’ and the sentence you get still makes sense. Yes, religious texts say crazy stupid shit. But if we can treat moderate Christians as people who, despite their selective insanity, are capable of ignoring the nuttier aspects of their holy book (like stoning adulterers) and acting in a humane manner, why can’t we do the same for Muslim moderates? (Of whom there certainly are many, both within and outside of the West.) Can’t we allow that Islam, like other religions, is interpreted in different ways by different people and some of those interpretations are more objectionable than others? And are perhaps objectionable for different reasons?
11 October 2007, on 5:47 pm
Yes, menstruation is a biological function, and not a choice, but since you argued that we shouldn’t let people into space because the moderate physical activity involved in prayer was too debilitating, I think it’s totally reasonable to spread that logic around a little.
I’ll repeat myself, menstruation is a bodily function like taking a crap or having to pee. No choice in the matter. If an astronaut gets stomach upset in space it can’t be helped. Oogie boogie sky daddy rituals are CHOICES.
11 October 2007, on 5:49 pm
I find it hard to believe that a hardline Muslim would even want to leave Earth
I find it hard to believe that a “moderate” Muslim would want to go through the trouble of following a guidebook in space for his superstitious belief system.
What I am saying is that insisting that calling moderate Muslims as extremists is wrong and counter-productive
Where did I say moderate Muslims are extremists? There are moderates and extremists in all religions, however, from the atheist viewpoint, all god believers are still delusional. And as for believing they are delusional being “counter-productive”…what is productive in allowing them to have their way with their goofy religion every time they whine and cry that we aren’t being “tolerant” enough?
Is it counter-productive to call our current administration a bunch of right-wing xian fundamentalist fucktards? Most atheists don’t have a problem with that when it comes to Christians, because our immediate problems are the fundie Christians who hold powerful positions. It can also happen with Islam or any other religion. The Islam populations are booming in Western countries, and one day women here in the USA all may find themselves wearing hijab and everyone forced to abide by Sharia Law. Maybe not in my lifetime, since I am in my 50s, but maybe in 50-75 years, I bet this will be a big problem.
What does this even mean? “While moderates don’t follow everything their holy book tells them, the book still says stuff?”
First of all…where did I say “the books still says stuff?” If you are going to quote me…don’t put words in my mouth.
My original quote means that it’s a good thing that most religious folks don’t literally follow their ancient mythology books to live their lives, and don’t follow all that is written in them. Their texts are full of violent instructions from their sky daddy, and it’s a good thing the moderates choose to overlook those parts. However, they are not willing to denounce their book as vile. They “cherish” it instead. And they would complacently allow a theocracy to happen.
I don’t see how they really prove Islam to be an inherently more awful religion than any other.
So, that makes it okay if they are all just as bad? And tell me anywhere in the world where Christians (even the most fundie) are chopping off heads of innocent people, stoning young girls, hanging homosexuals up on cranes by their necks, oppression of women…where does this happen in Christian nations? AND some of this stuff happens in Western Christian majority nations…by “devout” Muslims who violate the laws of the land they live in, in lieu of their own religious “law”. Honor killings, oppression of women still happens even though they live in lands where laws are supposed to protect them from these horrible things. I am not ignoring the fact that Christians have done some pretty horrendous things, and invading nations because “god told me to” is WRONG. But to say that Islam isn’t as bad, just look in the Middle East. If we didn’t interfere at all, they would all still fight and kill each other, and kill their own people in the most barbaric and cruel ways imaginable. The way humans treat other humans is just totally disturbing and despicable.
I want to make a final point. This is America, and our Constitution ensures the rights of people the freedom to choose to follow any belief they choose, or not to follow any at all. If people could do that, there would be no problems as far as people’s beliefs are concerned. However, it is not enough for many of these god believers, especially of Islam and Christianity. (Thank goodness we have laws that keep religious freaks from literally following what their “good books” instruct them to do.)
As of now, we have an election mainly focused on the candidates’ “faith” and personal beliefs. If Islam were the majority it would be the same thing. I don’t understand excusing one sky daddy belief, and even encouraging it, while protesting and fighting against another…namely Christianity. Why is the religion of Islam ok, but Christianity must not be tolerated when one is just as bad as the other? Also, we see what happens if we take the passive approach…we practically have a theocratic government right now!
11 October 2007, on 6:31 pm
Uh, yes, dude, it’s a different level of the same superstitious beliefs. Degree is the only difference.
11 October 2007, on 7:33 pm
it’s a different level of the same superstitious beliefs. Degree is the only difference.
Rev, exactly. The only thing that keeps many of the “faithful” in line is law enforcement and knowing that they will go to jail if they literally follow all of their god’s directions. However, there are some that don’t care about “earthly” laws and believe they will be rewarded in heaven for doing “god’s will” or “allah’s will”…etc.
13 October 2007, on 12:57 am
Despite his sky daddy beliefs and stupid religious rituals, in addition to trying to figure out which way to pray to Mecca in space and following the superstitious regulations of his little Muslim in Space guidebook the Associated Press reports: “Sheikh Muszapar will perform experiments involving diseases and the effects of microgravity and space radiation on cells and genes. The $25 million agreement for a Malaysian astronaut to fly to space was negotiated in 2003 along with a $900 million deal for Malaysia to buy 18 Russian fighter jets.”
Just thought I would post that to be “fair”.
14 October 2007, on 1:58 am
“…The $25 million agreement for a Malaysian astronaut to fly to space was negotiated in 2003 along with a $900 million deal for Malaysia to buy 18 Russian fighter jets.”
“Holy Bat-machines…Batman!”
(Robin manages to groan…shitting towards Mecca?)
Thanks, so much, for your ‘fairness’ role in all this, Stardust.
What!…a mini-Ramen for your diligence?
14 October 2007, on 10:36 am
ChuckA, anyone can do anything for the right price.
Look at this story I found. Looks like the Malaysian is simply a paid tourist though the Malaysian government is trying to pass him off as some sort of scientist and astronaut. Many more qualified engineers and scientists were overlooked.
14 October 2007, on 11:39 am
Jeez, wonderful proofreading on that article. Lol, I realize English might have been their second or even third language, but come on.
14 October 2007, on 11:58 am
Rev, I found myself imagining an accent as I was reading that. But poor grammar aside, he has pointed out things that the mainstream media failed to mention.
It seems that many Malaysians are not happy about their tax dollars being blown on this “space tourist”.
SEAN-THE-MAN.blogspot.com
And that also means “baggage” that needs special accommodations to practice his sky daddy rituals.
So wuliuqiba, this means that I have sort of “mis-labeled” him…he should be categorized as “token Malaysian crazy fundie space tourist” who is going to perform some redundant token “space experiments” and upon his return will be used as national propaganda to beef up someone’s political campaign.
14 October 2007, on 1:35 pm
I know, but sheesh, if you’re publishing something in English, it would be a good idea to grab someone who is a native speaker (and isn’t an idiot) and proof it.
I agree with the message, though.
14 October 2007, on 2:24 pm
This all brings attention to the recent phenomenon of Space tourism.
14 October 2007, on 3:22 pm
AND has anyone else noticed how wuliuqiba hasn’t commented on other posts on this site that are concerning far more important issues than fundies in space? It seems he/she only came here exclusively and repeatedly (and redundantly) to this one post in defense of “moderate” Islam, but has nothing else to say or comment about anywhere else. hmmmmm
15 October 2007, on 3:24 pm
Fuck Islam, Jesus and the rest of the bunk.
4 November 2007, on 11:13 pm
——————————————————————————–
Islam is able to keep the world’s attention on the terrorist attacks while “peaceful Islam” quietly goes about the business of taking over entire countries and working its way into the fabric of the legal and governmental systems of others. American Muslims are now petitioning that the call to prayer be blasted over loud speakers five times a day in quiet neighborhoods and towns. This is Islam’s next step in using democracy to destroy democracy. Always on the move, the quiet side of Islam is every bit as dangerous as the terrorists. The goals are the same, only the method varies.
Terrorism is a tool, the terrorists kill for an ideology. They call that ideology Islam. We must EXPOSE the violence and hate in the Koran which is inspiring terrorism. Realize that muslims believe the the Koran is the perfect word of god as dictated to Mohammed.
MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE KORAN IS THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD as dictated to Mohammed.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. 80- 90 percent of the Koran is composed of this kind advocacy for murder, conquering , looting and rape:
WARFARE IS ORDAINED FOR YOU, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. (2.216)
Sura 33 (a promise to faithful Muslims of countries to conquer) “And he bequeathed to you their lands, their homes and their possessions, together with land you have never trodden” (33.27) .
“Be patient with unbelievers until you have strength” (86.17).
(Muslims are quiet until they have the numbers to start demanding their way in the country they have invaded)
Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] … who do not profess the true religion, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. (9.29)
Quran 3:28 Don’t have unbelieving friends unless it is to deceive them. Remember the final goal is to Allah.
Quran 4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
(Quran 5:33): The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is: EXECUTION OR CRUCIFIXION OR THE CUTTING OFF OF HANDS AND FEET FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDES or exile from the land.
(Quran 8:12): Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.”
76: 4): Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire.
47:4): When you meet the disbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
When your Lord revealed to the angels; I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER – THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS – TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. 8:12-14
O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)
IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness …confine them until death claims them.
Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431
A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27)
Chapter 1140: The prophet said : “The majority of those who entered the fire of Hell were women.”
(So Islam considers most of the women are evil in nature and they end up in hell. )
“AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193
Quran 9:33 ISLAM WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL RELIGIONS
“ISLAM ISN’T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran … should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don’t need to look somewhere else.” OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR,the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.
WELCOME TO SWEDEN (Coming to USA unless we act)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JBpVAj4ILM
HONOR KILLINGS. WOMEN STONED TO DEATH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBkDdsx8T-4
MUSLIMS DESECRATING FLAG AND CONDEMING AMERICA IN NYC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4
http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/special_re