When an atheist tackles the charge that “Atheists are arrogant”, it’s always much more interesting than when theists level that accusation against us. Not because the defense is excellent (it is!) but because it is covered so thoroughly, and so eloquently. Unlike, say, theists who whine, more or less ad nauseum, “Atheists act like they’re smarter than us!”
Check out the end of a lengthy post, included in the Humanist Symposium #3, from the Evanescent blog:
…Sometimes it’s seen as audacious to reject other people’s beliefs and think that you are right. But there is nothing wrong with rejecting dogma when the evidence is on your side.If someone is really convinced they have the truth, invite them to prove it without referring to faith or using circular reasoning. What do they have to be afraid of?No, religion decides with complete certainty what is or isn’t the case. It assumes it is right, it has always been right, and always will be right. And of course that everyone else is wrong. And worse still, that you cannot challenge it.
Are the arrogant people those who:
Demand evidence; reject superstition; refuse to believe based on revelation and authority; use tried-and-tested logical tools to discover information; dismiss the contradictory and illogical claims of others; don’t interfere in other people’s lives; encourage diversity in all aspects of life; accept differences.
Or those who:
Reject evidence; embrace superstition; believe because they are told to; tell others what to believe without proof; use faith to “discover” knowledge regardless of the evidence; reject all opposing claims whilst being totally certain of their own; tell other people how live; try to control speech, dress, sex, and attitudes of others; discourage independence and free-thought; encourage conformity; dislike differences; assume that they have always been, are, and will always be right.
I believe if we are honest with ourselves and try to see all points of view for what they actually are and more importantly, how they actually behave, it is clear who the arrogant ones really are.
Are not the ones who are teachable, tolerant, and truth-searchers, the meek ones? Let’s hope Jesus was right when in his Sermon on the Mount he said that these are the ones who shall inherit the earth.
With or without the reference to jeebus, his points are perfectly made.
We win!
11 June 2007, on 7:11 pm
“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”
H. L. Mencken
11 June 2007, on 7:35 pm
I don’t think atheists are always wrong; in fact much of what they have to say is right on. Theism is a theory about the nature of reality. There are different theories, clashes, wars etc. Perhaps a little humility would help, but I doubt that it will ever happen.
Does God exist or not? When that is decided, then religion can come into the equation. This process of course can be done in an instant. I am catholic because I was raisied in that faith, however I also study other religions and philosophies, if I don’t I feel like I can’t breathe.
Religion and politics are very important, each side is right the other wrong, with contempt taking root. Contempt is the first step towards making ones opponent less than human, a few more steps and you have quite a lot of chaos.
Theist or atheist, we are alike, share the same nature, and using religion and atheism as a dividing line is harmful for both sides, and history bears this out. We struggle to be rational, to live lives that have meaning, but that is thrown out the window when bias comes into the picture. To sound rational does not do away with the deep emotional content below the surface, which is irrational, powerful, and colors everything. I have found that both fundies and aggressive atheist often sound angry, this does not lead to any kind of rational discourse. Perhaps it is impossible.
Peace
Mark
11 June 2007, on 7:47 pm
From my post, Islam’s “Galileo moment”…, at Martian.Anthropologist:
Getting the feeling that he was “having me on”, I replied:
And then they wonder why we sound angry all the time!
11 June 2007, on 8:02 pm
Mark Dohle:
Ask yourself why you called atheists “aggressive” but not fundies, who are usually the aggressors. You may find some of your answers in your thinking.
It comes from the disconnect that results in “my child is spirited; your child is a brat”.
When atheists find themselves under attack, our responses are rarely reported as assertive, rational or reasonable; rather, we’re accused of being aggressive, militant, angry, and worse.
Mark, why is that?
11 June 2007, on 11:05 pm
Is it arrogant to know that the world is round, or that gravity exists?
Regarding the guy who asked you if he can “learn” about the evidence for evolution, that always frustrates me too. How can one be typing on the greatest informational portal in the history of the world, and actually ask a question like that?
Just look it up, pal. Or look up a book about it and actually read it.
Or if all else fails, just go to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution
::end rant::
12 June 2007, on 1:30 am
Mark Dohle said:
‘I don’t think atheists are always wrong; in fact much of what they have to say is right on. Theism is a theory about the nature of reality. There are different theories, clashes, wars etc. Perhaps a little humility would help, but I doubt that it will ever happen.”
Mark, theism is not a theory. It is an hypothesis. It has been extant for thousands of years and has still not matured, due to difficulties in translation. Each man has his own take. Therein lies the rub of subjectivity and reliance on emotional “feelings”. I swear on my own name that most people couldn’t recognize the difference if it walked up and declared itself.
Real theories, like the Theory of the Internal Combustion Engine move you more than your dogma. Maxwel’s Theory of Electromagnetism puts you in touch with real voices far beyond what your prayers can. The Theory of Optics (plus some Chemistry and neat Engineering) preserves images of the past for you to proudly display to your progeny.
Hypothesis concerning Invisible Supernatural Spooks convey nothing but argument and ill will; specifically because they are predictably mundane, sophomoric, temporary and flaccid. Not to mention endlessly arguable.
For further clarification, please consult your nearest dictionary.
And another thing: when was the last time you heard a nontheist tell a theist that the theist’s future was endless agony unless the theist relented to the holy teachings of the atheist? Eh?
Take care. Think.
12 June 2007, on 4:47 am
My thoughts in that direction run immediately towards the utter hypocrisy of a person who is so sure of their beliefs that they damn everyone else to eternal torment for not believing.
THESE people call ATHEISTS arrogant?! The hypocrisy is so absolute that it beggars the imagination.
12 June 2007, on 4:52 am
Does God exist or not?
I hate this question. The question is never does some abstract god exist, but a SPECIFIC god. This discussion is never, ever about some abstract god but a way of changing the conversation.
Mark, tell us your religion so we know your agenda. Are you really so worried about some abstract, unknown god without any known attributes that might exist in a form unconsidered by human intelligence, or a specific set of religious beliefs that you’re proposing?
Because if you believe in a god that supports no religion — as, say, the Deists did — then the question of that god is largely irrelevant.
12 June 2007, on 5:16 am
Here is Bill Maher being an arrogant atheist in talking about religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKvOyyqKaZ0&mode=related&search=
It’s his stage routine, not his tv show.
12 June 2007, on 6:22 am
My favorite to always ask, that NEVER gets a response is when theists say stupid stuff like, “we are one nation under god.” I always have to reply “which god?” I usually get ignored, and they wonder why we come across as arrogant sometimes.
At least be able to back your stance with some speck of knowledge. If you don’t even know WHICH god you worship then maybe you don’t know as much as you think.
12 June 2007, on 7:01 am
I think that this religion thing is a societal norm. That is, we eat these things, that sort of animal (or food stuff) is garbage and those who eat it are disgusting and of questionable or even UN questioned charactor. So it is with religion.
I’m pretty sure our comrade on this journey, Mark feels like me and no few others who visit this site, that every person should be able to sit under our respective fig trees and arbors at peace and unafraid. I’m sure we could sit down, me with my coffe, him with whatever potable has his fancy, and have quite a discussion with no rancor at all.
In fairness, I have met a few fellow atheists who turned my stomach with their views as well. I left one circle (locally) of people who suddenly decided that they had the right to MAKE other people not believe. This is as impossible to do as it is to MAKE any of us believe and bend the knee. Very angry people, were simply the mirror image of what they despised.
The woman I mentioned in a previous post reminded me of the Red Queen in Alice. It infuriated her that people like us walked alone. How dared we not tremble before this terrible god…who I think was just a reflection of herself, as mean, narrow and cramped. I’ve met many others like her, she wasn’t alone. We both angered and terrified her. And yes, she believed the unbelieveable because it WAS unbelieveable as do many others. It suits their lack of maturity.
I keep thinking of Luther, and I think he was quoting Oregen (I don’t remember which) but he said that even if an angel from heaven came down and told him the whole of his belief was false he’d STILL believe. I don’t think that’s a positive.
12 June 2007, on 9:31 am
I thought the responses interesting. First of all I don’t attack anyone, never have, don’t feel the need. Yes I have been attacked by atheist, not questioned, reasoned with, but attacked, put down, and have had comtempt thrown at me. I just chalk it up to the fact that they have been abused so much by some christians that I don’t take it personally. Life is really too short for me to spend much time on that.
I don’t have an agenda, I don’t want to convert or change anyone, that is impossible.
The whole use of language is a problem when talking about God, so I have pretty much given up trying, not that is much of a concern of mine.
One of the best books on the “God” question is Raimon Panikkar’s book “The experience of God: Icons of mystery”, I am not sure anyone here would be interested.
The belief in God is not irrational, nor is the belief that the New Testament is an acutal faith document telling of the early chruches experiences with Jesus risen. Many would disagree with the above, but I believe in their testimony, and leave everyone to make up their own mind on that matter.
The whole debate thing with theist and non theist has become so boring that I don’t bother with it anymore. Back in 99 and into 2004 I thought it interesting, but the same material is gone over so many times that it become useless and absurd. I don’t spend much time anymore on this, too busy, but I do like this blog, and will come for more visits. Though I don’t think it will be worth while to post anymore, I don’t have the time to answer, so it is not quite fair for me to post.
I am sorry that many christians in this country don’t take the freedom of religion, also the freedom from religion as part of our culture. No one should be attacked for their beliefs, unless they cause harm to another.
Sorry this is so short, one of my charges is near death and most of my energy is focused on that.
peace
Mark
12 June 2007, on 10:48 am
Rationality is also thrown out the window when religion is in play.
12 June 2007, on 11:28 am
Bernarda, that’s your perception. I don’t see him as arrogant, I see him as right. What’s arrogant is saying I’m going to hell because I don’t believe what you believe, that you have some special knowledge I don’t, but you can’t prove that knowledge.
12 June 2007, on 12:52 pm
Mark, religion has caused, and is still causing, immeasurable harm to billions. So we, as atheists, have an obligation to attack it for the empty concept that it is, in my opinion. If one chooses not to, that’s fine, I don’t hold it against them.
I have to vehemently disagree that belief in God is not irrational. When I see people worshiping a grilled cheese sandwich, or a water stain on an underpass, or thank god that they didn’t die in that tornado (a supposed act of god), or that god will cure their cancer, or help their crops grow, or give them a healthy child, or give them a new Lincoln Continental, or help them win the football game, or help them blow up innocent people because they are infidels, these are irrational thoughts. And they happen every microsecond of every day, by billions of people.
You mention the New Testament, but what about the Old? Do you ignore that? If so, why? If not, why don’t you live your life by the multitude of irrational laws laid out there?
These are the kinds of things which anger me as an atheist, that religious people waffle and hedge and cherry-pick scripture to fit their needs while ignoring the other 99% which would be abhorrent to any semi-intelligent person. But the arrogance of the religious that they have the absolute truth is the most irrational part.
12 June 2007, on 3:03 pm
(((((You mention the New Testament, but what about the Old? Do you ignore that? If so, why? If not, why don’t you live your life by the multitude of irrational laws laid out there?)))))
The Old Testament is an assortment of books, some history, others poetry, some just simple stories. They reflect the experience that the people had of God. Our understanding of God reflects where we are at in the evolution of our understanding of the nature of God, which acts as a mirror reflecting back to us. Of course their is violence in the OT, we are a violent species, and perhaps will always be thus, the very idea of human rights is something quite new and I hope that is not lost.
Why do you fight faith so much? It seems a waste of time, have you changed anyone’s mind on this subject? Nothing that man does surprises me and I doubt that a world without religion would be better than it is today; in fact I think it would be worse.
One reason there is so much anger at religion is its poor record in living up to its calling. In the end failures are due to politics, the use of religion to further the desires of those in power. If religions practiced what they preached…..well that thought is a waste of time, since religion does not follow what they they preach.
The political arena in the last hundred years has also been very bleak, and it for the most part was religion free. I am talking of course about the communist empire which was totally secular. Perhaps we need to look deeper for the culpurit.
So we disagree, I have no problem with that.
Peace
Mark
12 June 2007, on 3:37 pm
My response to the “arrogant atheist” charge:
“You believe you were created in the image of God, have dominion over the earth, and are at the tippy-top of the hierarchy in God’s plan for the entire universe, and I’m arrogant?”
12 June 2007, on 4:37 pm
I fight faith, Mark, because faith is extreme ignorance. It breeds ignorance and hate, plain and simple.
As for your dismissal of the OT as just a collection of stories, I can as easily dismiss the NT as the same, and I do. It has no more bearing in reality than The Lord of the Rings, which is MUCH better written.
How can you have experience in something that doesn’t exist?? Your statements are ludicrous. What someone THINKS is god is just something that can’t figure out, therefore god did it. Not a viable way to live.
12 June 2007, on 7:41 pm
(((((How can you have experience in something that doesn’t exist?? Your statements are ludicrous.How can you have experience in something that doesn’t exist?? Your statements are ludicrous. What someone THINKS is god is just something that can’t figure out, therefore god did it. Not a viable way to live. )))))
I think that is up to me to decide what is a viable way to live. Well I do experience God, so you will just have to accept that, you can fight it if you want, that is up to you.
Man is made for the transcedent, that is why most men and women believe in God. Of course being human we can blotch it up quite a bit, just as we do other areas of human endeavor.
I wish you luck in your fight.
Peace
Mark
12 June 2007, on 9:39 pm
You could also decide to jump off a cliff, that doesn’t make it a good thing.
Good luck with your delusion.
13 June 2007, on 12:28 am
Why do you fight faith so much?
This is also one of those non-answers Xtians give.
Few athiests “fight faith” in some sort of abstract. We fight, for instance, Xtians trying to change the standards of science to include teaching children theology in place of biology. We fight the attempts to make abortion illegal. We fight judges who want to see the Ten Commandments put in courtrooms. Stuff like that. If religious folks kept their religion in their homes and places of worship, no atheist would care. But that isn’t the case, now is it? Religion Americans are, as a group, promoting a particular social and political agenda, and THAT is what is being fought.
The idea that we’re fighting faith in some abstract is silly. No. We are fighting what religions are doing, and we can make specific cases and level specific charges.
13 June 2007, on 12:53 pm
(((((Few athiests “fight faith” in some sort of abstract. We fight, for instance, Xtians trying to change the standards of science to include teaching children theology in place of biology. We fight the attempts to make abortion illegal. We fight judges who want to see the Ten Commandments put in courtrooms. Stuff like that. If religious folks kept their religion in their homes and places of worship, no atheist would care. But that isn’t the case, now is it? Religion Americans are, as a group, promoting a particular social and political agenda, and THAT is what is being fought.)))))
Good answer and in this country you have that right, just as Christians have the right to ‘fight’ what they feel is wrong, ignornat or evil. This is a great country.
Peace
mark
13 June 2007, on 11:30 pm
I can’t say I “fight” atheism, physical force never convinced anyone. And sure, people can believe whatever they want as long as they don’t harm anyone else in the process. However, given that we only have a short existence, some of us don’t want to believe in something that has no verifiable basis in reality, no matter how attractive it may seem. I’d rather face the truth no matter how ugly it is than to live in a fantasy world. The more information we can obtain about what actually exists, the better we can deal with the problems we actually face, and the better we can enjoy the pleasures that exist.
Our senses can deceive us, that’s why the scientific method is so useful, it spurs us to create experiments and test hypotheses in ways that correct for our built-in biases. You do realize that the light which enters our eyes are focused on a point in front of our retinas, such that our retinas receive an upside-down image of the world. This means that our brains, on the fly, rearrange this information so that we perceive the world in “right-side-up” fashion even though that’s not the information we receive. Our very perception of the world is a mental model, a virtual reality. Given that this is the case, how do you trust that your “experience” of God is true, without double-blind experiments, control of placebo factors, etc to verify your findings?
You may say that certain things are not quantifiable, such as love. I think that’s rubbish. See how love is quantifiable here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/14/love.science/index.html
Hmm, only certain parts of the brain become active when thinking about a new romantic partner. Why isn’t it random? And isn’t it interesting that some of the same areas are also stimulated by hunger and sex? Perhaps this is what people really fear — that all our hopes and desires can be located and explained one day, as specific activity in the brain, which can then be stimulated at will with a prod
I’d rather accept the reality, and deal with it, than pretend that there’s some unexplainable thing called a “soul” animating my desires. This explains nothing.
13 June 2007, on 11:35 pm
It should be obvious, but I meant to type “I can’t say I fight religion” in the first line of the previous post.
14 June 2007, on 11:08 pm
mark: The political arena in the last hundred years has also been very bleak, and it for the most part was religion free. I am talking of course about the communist empire which was totally secular. Perhaps we need to look deeper for the culpurit[sic].
I find this a pretty big oversimplification. Yes, the Soviet Union was a major player and yes, it ended up being a very bleak government, but by no means was it the only player; it wasn’t even the only major player, or only major secular player. Or are you forgetting that the same century you’re referring to also witnessed the rise of the US – also a secular government – as a superpower perhaps even stronger and more influential overall than the USSR? Do you also consider that particular development “very bleak?”
What made the Soviet Union reprehensible was not its secular nature; it didn’t do things “in the name of No God.” What it did do is what theocracies have taught people who want power to do down throughout the ages: establish a national official dogma and use it to systematically repress individual freedom. Instead of God/Church/Faith, the Soviets enshrined the State (and Stalin, well, he enshrined himself – as did the medieval European kings who colluded with the all-powerful Church to establish their undisputed power as “god’s chosen/anointed”).
Since atheism is not a belief system, let alone a systematized one, tallying up its “misses” in order to make organized institutionalized religion not look quite so bad is, again, invalid. I for one refuse to allow the framing of this conversation as a halved chalkboard with “atheism” on one side and “religion” on the other. It would make more sense (not!) if you put apastafarianism on one side and Pastafarianism on the other, and started listing the hits and misses of those who do not and those who do believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Be well.