How do we know that Christians are delusional?
11 January 2007 by StardustThis short video by Why God Won’t Heal Amputees.com adds to recent discussions we’ve had about xian delusional beliefs.
“If you are a Christian, you are about to begin a fascinating journey. In the next ten minutes it will become clear to you that your belief in God is delusional.
The goal of this short video is to help you look in a mirror and understand the delusion of Christianity. Once you can see what is going on, the hope is that you will be able to start healing your delusion. With each healing, we make our world a better place.”
11 January 2007, on 10:02 pm
Heh. This guy is awesome, although he does use “if you are a normal, intellegent person” too much though.
Not far OT from the bubbles of delusion, I saw a guy at school today in the computer lab playing a game, where he had no troubles at all sticking knives in lungs, shooting off faces, and setting fire to people, but when he needed to fight the last boss of Jesus, he instantly turned off the whole computer saying he didn’t want to go to hell. I had to explain to him that killing people would give him a ticket to hell weather it was Jesus or not. Then he naturally freaked out and tried to convert me.
12 January 2007, on 12:27 am
Per the Encyclopedia of Mind Disorders at
http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusions.html
Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual’s religious or cultural background are not delusions.
There is no empirical evidence for the existence of god, but there is also no empirical evidence to guarantee that the world will be a better place if all humans dispensed with delusions. It is unwise to make sweeping generalizations about the future of the world if xians were to step outside their “bubble”. What empirical evidence does he offer that the world will be a better place if xians quit believing in their god? I didn’t see anything here that supported his claim.
The film maker states that the 4 billion people outside the xian bubble “see reality clearly”. This is false. The majority of people outside that xian bubble have other bubbles of irrational thinking that they inhabit.
The health of the human species is dependent on many factors (human and otherwise) and it is unwise to attribute all destructive human behavior to religious belief. Even Richard Dawkins was apologetic for the title of his film The Root of All Evil? (which offered a much more convincing criticism of world religions than this little slide show) because, as he put it, “nothing is the root of all evil”. It was his producers who insisted on the more distorted all-or-nothing title for effect.
Simplistic approaches like this YouTube offering really are an embarrassment.
12 January 2007, on 12:44 am
Lynda, you have raised some good points, especially when you said:
Just because we don’t have any god beliefs, doesn’t mean that we will always think rationally and “see reality clearly”.
12 January 2007, on 1:07 am
I’m convinced that approximately 25% of the human race is certifiably insane. I know some people might argue the figure is probably much higher than that, but I have to think that the human race could not have survived if that were the case.
12 January 2007, on 1:14 am
Thinking about this video a little more, maybe even though it is insulting in some ways, the illustrations and explanations about other religions in comparison to xianity might make people stop and ask themselves why their religion is not like the others when they consider the others to be untrue.
When we try to debate with xians with facts, logic and scientific evidence, they never listen. Maybe a couple of people who are on the edge will realize what this video is saying. It took taking a world mythology class and a world religion class and examining these things side by side to snap me out of my religious delusions.
12 January 2007, on 1:15 am
I’m convinced that approximately 25% of the human race is certifiably insane. I know some people might argue the figure is probably much higher than that, but I have to think that the human race could not have survived if that were the case.
Tommykey – Looking at the state the world is in, I would have to agree.
12 January 2007, on 5:04 am
First, the ‘Encyclopedia of Mind Disorders’ (EMD) does not carry the same weight as ‘Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition’(DSM-IV) published by the American Psychiatric Association, and considered by the many as one of the two definitive works on the subject or the ‘bible’, the other such work being the ‘International Classification of Diseases -10′ published by the World Health Organisation.
Second, the definiton quoted from the EMD is only part of the definition given for delusion, and does not, therefore, give the whole story; the EMD definition commences(italics added):
Third, this definition basically parrots that given in the DSM-IV, is contentious per se, and is open to the same valid criticism levied by many practitioners, and others:
*Is it appropriate to define delusions in such a way as to exclude anything that sufficiently large numbers of people believe?
*The fact is that many delusions are not “firmly sustained”, nor are they necessarily impervious to evidence or experience.
*The definition of delusion given ignores the extreme difficulty when attempting to make a diagnostic distinction between the content of culturally sanctioned religious beliefs and that of religious delusions.
*The requirement that it imposes to have to make such a distinction is being recognised, finally, as a challenge to established psychiatric nosology, since it is completely artificial, and made on grounds other than psychiatric determinants.
* It also fails to recognise the latest developments in neuropsychology and related fields into the nature and aetiology of delusional beliefs.
* It draws a distinction between the passing off of irrational beliefs which the holder knows at some level to be untruthful (thereby vindicating Georges Reys’ “meta-atheism” hypothesis, incidentally), and other kinds of delusions.
*The distinction made between beliefs which the holder knows at some level to be false and those which are acknowledged to be full-blown delusions is one which nigh-on impossible to make (a charge which is commonly used to discredit Rey’s hypothesis, but is equally valid here.)
Fourth, in conclusion, is is quite dishonest to exclude articles of religious faith from being diagnosed, correctly, as delusional, unless the so-called ‘believers’ in those articles of religious faith are prepared to acknowledge that their claims are de facto false.
12 January 2007, on 5:17 am
Even if that statement is true, is it any reason to encourage religious belief, except in the private sphere?
After all, Iraq was invaded because George W Buffoon was told by his god to do so, and our illustrious leader, El Presidente Tony B-liar, supported him because he did not care about the criticism of his fellow-men (over his conduct re Iraq), but was content to be judged by his god for his actions in supporting the USA. Fortunately for their enterprise, both the Buffoon and the B-liar worship the same god, but I wonder if either of them are now thinking, privately, “That’s another fine mess you’ve got us into, Ollie!” (an Oliver & Hardy catchphrase for those who are too young to remember).
12 January 2007, on 5:39 am
Lynda,
You criticise the film-maker for making statements unsupported by empirical evidence, and then you state:
What empirical evidence do you have to substantiate your claim?
12 January 2007, on 5:44 am
Obviously I missed something in the video, because I have no recollection of the film-maker “attribut[ing] all destructive human behavior to religious belief.”
Did anyone else note such a claim?
12 January 2007, on 5:50 am
By it’s very nature, a 10-minute video does not have sufficient time to develop a sophisticated and extended argument, and it is unreasonable to expect it to.
Having said that, I thought that it did it’s job reasonably well, and that the only people it would have been an embarrassment to are those so-called ‘people of faith’. Nevertheless, I’d be interested to know how many people on this site did find it an embarrassment?
12 January 2007, on 6:11 am
I know I am a broken record .. and not as articulate and bookish as lots on these blogs but I cannot resist making the statement again:
No sane person of “faith” with knowledge really believes the religious stuff that others outside the bubble consider delusional. In the US there are pockets of delusional people who really do believe .. BUT if you examine how most god-fearing church going people live their lives when the chips are down you will see they act like ATHEISTS…. ego they “is” ATHEISTS under the hood!!!
Test of your faith delusion: Your beloved little child is deathly sick. You have a choice between 2 options.. but the choices are MUTUALLY exclusive… you choose one .. you lose all aspects of the other…
Choice one: no medical or other scientific or pyhsical help can be given to your child BUT everyone in the world will fervantly and faithfully pray to god for her healing, or
Choice two: your beloved child can get the latest greatest and best modern medical care ever BUT no one will pray or in any way recognize god in any action or thought connected with you and your child.
Bettha any SANE parent — professions of faith to the contrary — chooses TWO.. the automatic ATHEIST choice!!
Same way there are ONLY atheists in foxholes.. else the foxholees would stop defending and fighting for life and just pray!! NOT — Rather they act just like an ATHEIST. No atheists in foxholes ?!?!? Bullshit.. ain’t nothing but de facto atheists in foxholes … unless the foxholee is INsane!!
Follow the logic god lovers… you know in your heart what you are — nothing but a rational atheist (else you are insane)!! Socially a “christian” or whatever — but under the hood .. when the chips are down … whatta ya think!?!?!?? SANE PEOPLE BE HONEST!!
12 January 2007, on 9:27 am
By it’s very nature, a 10-minute video does not have sufficient time to develop a sophisticated and extended argument, and it is unreasonable to expect it to.
Basically, this little video is a discussion/debate starter. Evidence and arguing points can be discussed during discussion, as we are doing now. It sure is an attention getter! Like I said, if there is anyone “sitting on the fence” and having serious doubts about the truth of their religion, this should really give them something more to consider.
12 January 2007, on 9:35 am
No sane person of “faith” with knowledge really believes the religious stuff that others outside the bubble consider delusional. In the US there are pockets of delusional people who really do believe .. BUT if you examine how most god-fearing church going people live their lives when the chips are down you will see they act like ATHEISTS…. ego they “is” ATHEISTS under the hood!!!
ConcernedJoe – You bring up a very good point: The prime visual example of this is on the front lawns across America around Xmas and Easter times. Santas right next to baby Jeebus and the nativity scenes, execution symbols right along side Mr. Easter Bunny. Halloween is a HUGE holiday and it can’t be just ahteists who are bringing in the cashola for companies for all of this profits made on all this crap.
Most people in the free world worship the Almighty Dollar and it’s “son” Mr. Plastic Credit Card more than they do their imaginary friends.
12 January 2007, on 10:07 am
What the hell game was that, Jaxx?
12 January 2007, on 10:16 am
Tommeykey wrote:
I don’t know, I’d go higher. Perhaps not insane, but not very intelligent. One reason I believe this is because we’re not evolving the way we should be. We protect the sick and the elderly instead of them being picked off by predators, or dying soon after birth, or not being born at all. We don’t adapt to our immediate environs, we change our environs to suit us (turning on the AC or the heat). Our only natural predators are ourselves. As a result, I think the global gene pool has suffered.
Does this mean I’m a Eugenics nut? Not at all. I don’t think we can, will, or should do anything about it, but for me it does explain a lot of why a small minority of people can think the rest of the world is insane. But, maybe that’s just a distorted world view on my part. But one DOES have to admit that humans on the whole are not subjected to the same natural selection “opportunities” as the rest of the animal kingdom.
12 January 2007, on 11:20 am
Actually Ollie was usually saying that to Stan
My favorite comedy duo of all time!
12 January 2007, on 12:53 pm
I think the video made perfect sense TO ME…but I think it would be off putting to a xian. It’s quite insulting. It’s one thing to question someone who is doing something silly. Go socratic method on his ass and lead him to a conclusion. It’s another thing to just start the dialogue with, “You’re delusional.”
>
I was actually helped along by a xian.
I was a fundie protestant going to a jesuit school. (It was the only one in my area that had the major I wanted). I was in a bible class (a requirement), and the prof was talking about how they had meetings to decide what books made it into the canon. He said some of the books that didn’t make the cut had Moses flying and other things. So, I raised my hand and asked does that mean that the books that are in the bible are true? And he said no.
That’s all it took. As a fundie, I was taught that everything is true, historically accurate, etc. I always questioned everything, though, even as a youngster. When I look back and remember all the semantical gymnastics people used to explain their way out of things…
So to go from believing everything is fact to being told that some of the stuff is history, some is prophecy, and some is just literature (i.e. FICTION), then it wasn’t long before my natural desire to question everything was put to good use by asking people OTHER than my religious family.
12 January 2007, on 12:54 pm
At a link at the youtube site there is this entertaining collection of statements by atheists.
Of course it is not a constructed argument, but amusing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZuknsnphEU&mode=related&search=
Here is the youtube link to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ
On to Tom Cruise and the operating thetans.
12 January 2007, on 12:54 pm
Hmm, I quoted someone in that post and it just shows us as a blank space with a “>”
So, if the following bit seemed like a non-sequitur, that’s why.
12 January 2007, on 1:02 pm
I think the video made perfect sense TO ME…but I think it would be off putting to a xian. It’s quite insulting.
On the other hand, xians seem to like using insults to get their points across, so why not try their approach? I can’t keep track of how often I am told that I have no morals, don’t know what real love is without jeebus in my heart, and am going to burn for eternity in a lake of fire because I am so filled with evil.
12 January 2007, on 3:14 pm
Thanks for the link to that Atheist quotes vid, Bernarda!
It’s interesting to me…on all the YouTube video pages…to read some of the responses. The fundies, probably, in most cases, either don’t really watch the video…or just fail to comprehend the rational message.
A great collection of quotes…
I had to turn off the ‘Rap’ sound track, however, on that…totally destracting noise, in my opinion…not commensurate, or appropriate, to the more ‘intellectually’ thoughtful text content.
Actually…one doesn’t really need ANY sound on that type of production.
The inappropriate, auto-emotional response ‘buttons’ can get in the way of some much needed ‘higher’ level thinking.(?)
Then again…maybe it’s the sound track that appeals more to the fundies!
Sheesh!…
OK…I guess I’m just an old, singer/musician…
Snob?
Whateva!
12 January 2007, on 4:26 pm
Revenant-
http://www.ugoplayer.com/games/madnessinteractive.html
12 January 2007, on 5:15 pm
TOG: not embarassment exactly–more like “high cringe-factor”.
I once watched ten of them (all related but separate vids) in a row–and found my eyes had glazed over and my mind was similarly stupefied.
I think it might be his voice. He sounds like Jim Hightower–but without Jim’s wonderful wit and charm. Aggressively pedantic and thin, with overtones of smug superiority and an unsatisfactory finish–
–overall, it’s an inferior and immature whine…
12 January 2007, on 5:38 pm
Naomi,
Thanks for coming back on one of my questions.
Agreed, the video could have been better, but it did make some relevant points, nevertheless, though whether this will be appreciated by ‘people of faith’ is unlikely – except in so far as any 1 of the 3 faiths chosen will identify with the rubbishing of the other two, and fail completely to see the implication for their own.
Still, I couldn’t have done a better job, and if those who are so critical can, well, the proof of the pudding etc., so I’ll look forward to viewing their efforts in due course.
13 January 2007, on 12:33 pm
Old Git quotes me and then asks a question:
“…there is also no empirical evidence to guarantee that the world will be a better place if all humans dispensed with delusions.”
Even if that statement is true, is it any reason to encourage religious belief, except in the private sphere?
I don’t think there is any reason to “encourage” religious belief in any sphere, including the private, since there is no empirical evidence to support religion.
13 January 2007, on 1:18 pm
In reference to my comment that the majority of the 4 billion people outside the xian bubble hold delusional beliefs Old Git asks: What empirical evidence do you have to substantiate your claim?
Here’s one website with a link to the Britannica Encyclopedia stats as well:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html I’m sure you’ve seen these before. Most of the world’s population outside the xian faith bubble hold to some other religious beliefs. This is the irrational thinking to which I was referring. Mathematical calculations alone will support my claim that the video makes an incorrect claim about the 4 billion outside the xian bubble seeing reality clearly. There are 6 billion people in the world. 2 billion inside the xian bubble leaves the Muslim and Hindu bubble inhabitants as part of the 4 billion outside. Certainly atheists don’t agree with their view of reality.
Along with these stats one can make rough calculations based on the multi-billion dollar businesses selling astrological readings and pseudoscientific tales about aliens and Loch Ness monsters or even lottery tickets to add to the weight of the argument that most humans hold to some irrational thinking of one sort or another.
13 January 2007, on 1:37 pm
Thanks for your amplification, Lynda, however, even were it true that “most humans hold to some irrational thinking of one sort or another”, the fact remains that it is untenable to claim that religion is not properly diagnosable as delusion, as I indicated in post #7.
13 January 2007, on 2:08 pm
Obviously I missed something in the video, because I have no recollection of the film-maker “attribut[ing] all destructive human behavior to religious belief.”
Upon viewing the video again I agree that my statement regarding destructive human behavior doesn’t correctly reflect the film-maker’s overt message. Although to tell viewers, as he does at the end of the video, that they will become “normal healthy humans” if they dispense with their religious delusion almost suggests that their religious beliefs are the only contributing factors to possible unhealthy destructive human behavior. Perhaps that’s why I made that leap.
Good observation nevertheless, Old Git.
13 January 2007, on 2:37 pm
the fact remains that it is untenable to claim that religion is not properly diagnosable as delusion
I recently watched a film hosted by Robert Buckman of the Humanist Association of Canada entitled “Without God”. He interviews a psychologist/neurologist studying the brain at a university in Sudbury, ON. This scientist has performed some interesting experiments stimulating regions of participants’ brains. There seems to be a lack of concensus on whether religious beliefs are the product of unhealthy brain activity, in essence mental illness, or the result of the interpretation of normal brain function. Therefore, I hesitate to label those with religious beliefs as suffering from insane delusions.
I found it quite interesting at one point in Dr Burns’ book “Feeling Good” that he invokes god’s blessing on one of his former patients. Obviously he does not include religious beliefs under his list of cognitive distortions. If religion doesn’t warrant even the label of cognitive distortion it’s hard to see how it could be diagnosable as delusion.
13 January 2007, on 4:37 pm
David Burns “invokes god’s blessing on one of his former patients” you say – I don’t recollect him doing that, can you provide a page reference and which edition you found it in?
13 January 2007, on 4:40 pm
Lynda said:
Whatever gave you the idea that dysfunctional brain activity is mental illness?
28 January 2007, on 5:20 pm
Lynda,
I am regrettably obliged to assume that the fact you have not provided the information I requested in post #31 means that you are unable to substantiate the claim you made in your immediately preceding post.
I am also surprised that you have not responded to my post #32, since you seem to enjoy having the last word.