Comments on: Would you want a pill which could lessen bad memories? http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/ THIS BLOG IS NO LONGER ACTIVE. We've retired this blog, but the GifS gang is now active at Atheist Oasis (atheistoasis.wordpress.com). Visit us there! Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:44:32 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Spirula http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111836 Spirula Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:24:01 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111836 The Old Git, I understand what are warning about and I think your cautions should be heeded by all. I bow to your clinical experience as my operant is research. I think you nailed it about the lacrimal to brain and liver bypass. For the same reasons, nasal delivery drugs worry me. I do not think this drug should be used lightly. I was trying to clarify for other readers how memory works, how adrenaline influences it,how it can produce abberations such as PTSD, and why propranolol offers hope for some. Oh, and I agree that beginning with therapy first is most important. Cheers, from the other side of the pond that is getting about 2.5cm wider every year. The Old Git,
I understand what are warning about and I think your cautions should be heeded by all. I bow to your clinical experience as my operant is research. I think you nailed it about the lacrimal to brain and liver bypass. For the same reasons, nasal delivery drugs worry me.

I do not think this drug should be used lightly. I was trying to clarify for other readers how memory works, how adrenaline influences it,how it can produce abberations such as PTSD, and why propranolol offers hope for some. Oh, and I agree that beginning with therapy first is most important.

Cheers, from the other side of the pond that is getting about 2.5cm wider every year.

]]>
By: LesserFool http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111816 LesserFool Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:35:14 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111816 I love the ethic debates that scientifically-based medicine produces. It is so refreshing and stimulating and anything but the black-and-white thinking of fundamentalists who arrogantly think they have all the answers. In any case, I do wonder about a slippery slope situation where people do not mature and grow on account of suppressing otherwise normal (even if painful) experiences and situations of life. Given the mis-prescription of drugs for ADD and depression, I don't have much faith that a slippery slope would be avoided. On the other hand, if it could be strictly controlled only in cases where PTSD is highly likely or demonstrable, it would be advisable to consider this medication. As someone who suffered a traumatic event 20 years ago, a drug like this would have helped considerably. I love the ethic debates that scientifically-based medicine produces. It is so refreshing and stimulating and anything but the black-and-white thinking of fundamentalists who arrogantly think they have all the answers.

In any case, I do wonder about a slippery slope situation where people do not mature and grow on account of suppressing otherwise normal (even if painful) experiences and situations of life. Given the mis-prescription of drugs for ADD and depression, I don’t have much faith that a slippery slope would be avoided.

On the other hand, if it could be strictly controlled only in cases where PTSD is highly likely or demonstrable, it would be advisable to consider this medication. As someone who suffered a traumatic event 20 years ago, a drug like this would have helped considerably.

]]>
By: Russman http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111810 Russman Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:23:53 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111810 JJR, Kudos to your upcoming 4 months sober! In regards to your ex and that situation; I was recently counseled to examine my relationship with my parents in my childhood and identify areas of conflict/distance/shortcomings/etc.and see how the issues in my marriage paralleled the issues of my youth. Bingo! Nearly all points where my childhood needs were unfulfilled were similar to behaviors exhibited by my wife, and vice versa. In other words, we choose partners to make up for inadequecies of our parents. Most of the time we just relive the miseries of youth instead of being able to affect meaningful change in our lives. A rather viscous and unproductive life path at best. So look at your childhood, ask yourself what disappointed you (or you hated the most)about your parents, and then see how many similar traits your ex shared with your parents. I would bet that you will be amazed. Hang in there! You're on the right path! JJR,
Kudos to your upcoming 4 months sober!

In regards to your ex and that situation; I was recently counseled to examine my relationship with my parents in my childhood and identify areas of conflict/distance/shortcomings/etc.and see how the issues in my marriage paralleled the issues of my youth. Bingo! Nearly all points where my childhood needs were unfulfilled were similar to behaviors exhibited by my wife, and vice versa. In other words, we choose partners to make up for inadequecies of our parents. Most of the time we just relive the miseries of youth instead of being able to affect meaningful change in our lives. A rather viscous and unproductive life path at best. So look at your childhood, ask yourself what disappointed you (or you hated the most)about your parents, and then see how many similar traits your ex shared with your parents. I would bet that you will be amazed.

Hang in there! You’re on the right path!

]]>
By: Mark http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111688 Mark Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:51:25 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111688 Can I use it to forget the last six years of George Bush? Can I use it to forget the last six years of George Bush?

]]>
By: Nicksta http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111598 Nicksta Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:36:47 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111598 Well. I have heard many times that your personality is somewhat based on your experiences, your memories if you will. If you could take a pill to "lessen" those memories, wouldn't it distort your personality, who you are? It is the principle of spanking your child when he does something really bad, he learns not to do it again. If you took the drug, how would you prevent yourself from doing the same thing all over again? Well. I have heard many times that your personality is somewhat based on your experiences, your memories if you will. If you could take a pill to “lessen” those memories, wouldn’t it distort your personality, who you are? It is the principle of spanking your child when he does something really bad, he learns not to do it again. If you took the drug, how would you prevent yourself from doing the same thing all over again?

]]>
By: JJR http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111558 JJR Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:02:24 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111558 I've had mostly negative experiences with psychiatrists and the meds they've tried to put me on before. Psychological counseling and self-introspection have always been better for me in the long run. My current therapist is working out very well. My attempts at self-medication (i.e. alcohol) just quit working for me, causing more problems in the long run than was worth the temporary escape...plus it kept my "base line" in the area of "low grade depression" pretty much all the time. Having maintained sobriety since 8/1/06, I do, on the whole, feel better about myself; Little frustrated about my career situation, trying to break back into Librarianship, but beyond that, Life's a-ok. No, I would not take the drug propranolol; I wouldn't stay on Paxil (hated the "sexual side effects"--I was like, shit, if ANYTHING has kept me sane, that unique form of self-love has, I'm not givin' THAT up...), and Welbutrin didn't do much for me. I gave it up when I realized it wasn't that I was suffering from depression per se, but that I was in a shitty marriage with a control-freak who was drifting back to her fundamentalist family roots to boot...and THAT'S why I was miserable. Once I filed for divorce I *instantly* felt a whole helluva lot happier. No regrets there, still glad to say. One of the weird things for me about _ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND_ (which I LOVED, incidentally) was that I had just separated from my then wife when I saw it...so I couldn't help but juxtapose myself mentally with Jim Carey's character, and my soon-to-be-Ex-wife for Kate Winslet. It was touching to watch the characters start to unwittingly fall in love again...not remembering their horrible fights and ugly break-up at all, the same little things that initially attracted them to each other began to go to work again...the old chemistry was there again, working itself out. And while I felt good for the characters, I imagined with horror if that were me and my estranged spouse. Because, yes, not knowing the dark things I learned about her (and vis versa, shoe on the other foot), yeah, I probably would, as the cliche would have it, fall in love all over again with that person...because it was based on an idealized conception of what I wanted them to be, rather than who they actually were. There were things I found genuinely attractive about my ex, and not just her knockout body. But I also deliberately ignored some pretty large red flags that should have tipped me off that THIS AIN'T GONNA WORK. But on the other hand, I'd be denying a large chunk of the last 4-5 years of my life if I could magically "erase it" all, or even more fanciful, go back in time and decide NOT to pursue the relationship at all. It's not like it was all bad...in the beginning there were some really really wonderful times, times where I felt like I was walking on air...where I was happier than I'd probably ever been in my life up to that point. Those are still fond memories, even knowing as I do how everything turned out in the end (rather badly). I savor every aspect of the memory of that relationship...the good, the bad, and the ugly. I don't think about it often, but it's part of who I am now, and I have no desire to blot it out from my consciousness. anyway, that's my $.02 Plus the lead in article makes me think about all the creepy CIA drug experiments I've read about through the years. *shiver* I’ve had mostly negative experiences with psychiatrists and the meds they’ve tried to put me on before. Psychological counseling and self-introspection have always been better for me in the long run. My current therapist is working out very well. My attempts at self-medication (i.e. alcohol) just quit working for me, causing more problems in the long run than was worth the temporary escape…plus it kept my “base line” in the area of “low grade depression” pretty much all the time. Having maintained sobriety since 8/1/06, I do, on the whole, feel better about myself; Little frustrated about my career situation, trying to break back into Librarianship, but beyond that, Life’s a-ok.
No, I would not take the drug propranolol; I wouldn’t stay on Paxil (hated the “sexual side effects”–I was like, shit, if ANYTHING has kept me sane, that unique form of self-love has, I’m not givin’ THAT up…), and Welbutrin didn’t do much for me. I gave it up when I realized it wasn’t that I was suffering from depression per se, but that I was in a shitty marriage with a control-freak who was drifting back to her fundamentalist family roots to boot…and THAT’S why I was miserable. Once I filed for divorce I *instantly* felt a whole helluva lot happier. No regrets there, still glad to say.

One of the weird things for me about _ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND_ (which I LOVED, incidentally) was that I had just separated from my then wife when I saw it…so I couldn’t help but juxtapose myself mentally with Jim Carey’s character, and my soon-to-be-Ex-wife for Kate Winslet. It was touching to watch the characters start to unwittingly fall in love again…not remembering their horrible fights and ugly break-up at all, the same little things that initially attracted them to each other began to go to work again…the old chemistry was there again, working itself out. And while I felt good for the characters, I imagined with horror if that were me and my estranged spouse. Because, yes, not knowing the dark things I learned about her (and vis versa, shoe on the other foot), yeah, I probably would, as the cliche would have it, fall in love all over again with that person…because it was based on an idealized conception of what I wanted them to be, rather than who they actually were. There were things I found genuinely attractive about my ex, and not just her knockout body. But I also deliberately ignored some pretty large red flags that should have tipped me off that THIS AIN’T GONNA WORK.

But on the other hand, I’d be denying a large chunk of the last 4-5 years of my life if I could magically “erase it” all, or even more fanciful, go back in time and decide NOT to pursue the relationship at all. It’s not like it was all bad…in the beginning there were some really really wonderful times, times where I felt like I was walking on air…where I was happier than I’d probably ever been in my life up to that point. Those are still fond memories, even knowing as I do how everything turned out in the end (rather badly).

I savor every aspect of the memory of that relationship…the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I don’t think about it often, but it’s part of who I am now, and I have no desire to blot it out from my consciousness.

anyway, that’s my $.02

Plus the lead in article makes me think about all the creepy CIA drug experiments I’ve read about through the years. *shiver*

]]>
By: ChuckA http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111554 ChuckA Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:50:08 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111554 What was the original topic about in this post?… Um…and…how do you use the ‘Home’ key on the computer keyboard? [I’m Kidding!} Seriously…my thoughts on memory cover some very basic things that I’ve considered in my own life experience. From various articles that I’ve read; memory is a lot less objectively reliable than most people assume. I think ‘we’ sometimes naturally distort, and in many cases, conveniently forget events that are disturbing to us…WITHOUT the use of any drugs. I can attest to how MY memory account of a distant particular event has differed significantly from an old re-encountered associate’s account of the same event. Of course…MY memory is the correct version! ;) My use of alcohol and its effects, etc. in my younger days, most probably inhibit even my remembering a lot of things which, today, would make me cringe with embarrassment. I DO have quite enough memory of other very early unpleasant life incidents…even a couple of pre-teen spankings quickly spring to mind. [One from each parent, separately!] Some of those kind of memories actually help in my appreciation of what was going on in my parents lives…and temper any judgment I might have of them…if, somehow, I couldn’t recall those incidents. It’s like the strict, somewhat scary, teacher who turns out to be the one you fondly remember as being the one you learned the most from! Some events, related to some of my drunken episodes, I’ve never forgotten. They still evoke embarrassment, and make me cringe at how stupid I was in certain circumstances…and how ‘lucky’ I was that no one was physically hurt, or killed, in the process; including myself! I finally decided to stop drinking alcohol, and habitually relapsing in 1986, and smoking tobacco in 1989…yada, yada…and very seldom even think of “re-inventing the wheel” of my addiction. However, some of those really bad memories pop up once in a while to remind me of the pain; some, physical [Terrible Hangovers?]; some, just embarrassingly stupid circumstances. One of my sayings, mostly to myself, still remains: “You wanna be stupid?…Do drugs!…They, evenually, and perhaps inevitably, GUARANTEE Stupidity!” I usually follow that, when saying it to others, with:… ”Of course…I COULD be wrong!”… ”By the way, are you an aspiring, 'experimental' Scientist?” Alas, my point, here, is very basic:…Certain memories…if one LEARNS from them…may turn into positive, and even VERY important aspects of our individual subjective reality, which, I think, would even be UNWISE to eradicate; stemming from some momentary whim, and accomplished by using an even MORE questionable drug. THAT drug itself might become another, further ‘unmanageable’ addiction…possibly even a fatal one…while one is trying to escape one’s own, personal responsibility…and the societal responsibility to one’s fellow traveler on this little "Earthly Orb". OK…now, back to using that ‘Home’ key! What was the original topic about in this post?…
Um…and…how do you use the ‘Home’ key on the computer keyboard?
[I’m Kidding!}

Seriously…my thoughts on memory cover some very basic things that I’ve considered in my own life experience. From various articles that I’ve read; memory is a lot less objectively reliable than most people assume. I think ‘we’ sometimes naturally distort, and in many cases, conveniently forget events that are disturbing to us…WITHOUT the use of any drugs.
I can attest to how MY memory account of a distant particular event has differed significantly from an old re-encountered associate’s account of the same event. Of course…MY memory is the correct version! ;)
My use of alcohol and its effects, etc. in my younger days, most probably inhibit even my remembering a lot of things which, today, would make me cringe with embarrassment.
I DO have quite enough memory of other very early unpleasant life incidents…even a couple of pre-teen spankings quickly spring to mind. [One from each parent, separately!] Some of those kind of memories actually help in my appreciation of what was going on in my parents lives…and temper any judgment I might have of them…if, somehow, I couldn’t recall those incidents. It’s like the strict, somewhat scary, teacher who turns out to be the one you fondly remember as being the one you learned the most from!
Some events, related to some of my drunken episodes, I’ve never forgotten. They still evoke embarrassment, and make me cringe at how stupid I was in certain circumstances…and how ‘lucky’ I was that no one was physically hurt, or killed, in the process; including myself! I finally decided to stop drinking alcohol, and habitually relapsing in 1986, and smoking tobacco in 1989…yada, yada…and very seldom even think of “re-inventing the wheel” of my addiction. However, some of those really bad memories pop up once in a while to remind me of the pain; some, physical [Terrible Hangovers?]; some, just embarrassingly stupid circumstances.
One of my sayings, mostly to myself, still remains:
“You wanna be stupid?…Do drugs!…They, evenually, and perhaps inevitably, GUARANTEE Stupidity!”
I usually follow that, when saying it to others, with:…
”Of course…I COULD be wrong!”…
”By the way, are you an aspiring, ‘experimental’ Scientist?”

Alas, my point, here, is very basic:…Certain memories…if one LEARNS from them…may turn into positive, and even VERY important aspects of our individual subjective reality, which, I think, would even be UNWISE to eradicate; stemming from some momentary whim, and accomplished by using an even MORE questionable drug.
THAT drug itself might become another, further ‘unmanageable’ addiction…possibly even a fatal one…while one is trying to escape one’s own, personal responsibility…and the societal responsibility to one’s fellow traveler on this little “Earthly Orb”.
OK…now, back to using that ‘Home’ key!

]]>
By: Revenant http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/comment-page-1/#comment-111509 Revenant Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:23:56 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/11/29/would-you-want-a-pill-which-could-lessen-bad-memories/#comment-111509 Your memories and experiences make you what you are. For good or ill, getting rid of them means denying who you are. Remember, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger, so we can kill it later ;) Your memories and experiences make you what you are. For good or ill, getting rid of them means denying who you are. Remember, that which doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, so we can kill it later ;)

]]>