The Best of GifS Comments: You Been Spencerfied
21 August 2006 by Sean
From King Retard’s thread titled, appropriately enough, Fun With Comments, Spencer has a field day with confused theist Watchnj.
(Is he a Muslim? Who knows? He seems to think he might be. Is he telling us to watch New Jersey? I grew up in New York. We watched New Jersey all the time — watched it blow pollution toward New York, that is.)
Anyway… Spencer has a kick holding forth on this bizarre troll.
(Come on, Raindogzilla, it’s just a sock puppet you invented, right? Nobody’s really this stupid.)
Regardless, hoax or no, Spencer gets in some choice words and wisdom to the Watchnj.
——————————————————————————–
Spencer Says:
August 18th, 2006 at 7:58 pm EST
Quoth the Watchnj, nevermore:
Atheist are idiots. In you little bubble world beleive you are the smartest that fiqured out that god is fake and religion is a hoax. When people argue with you on very importent topics, you point out spelling mistakes.
Oh, don’t get yourself into a tizzy. I am non-discriminatory in whose grammar and spelling I correct. I am equally as likely to correct a Christian’s spelling when they’re talking about a “very importent topic” than I am to correct one of my friends when they’re talking about a movie, and I’m fairly sure that most people are the same way.
I could point out that I haven’t touched your numerous spelling errors at all yet, but that would defeat the purpose.
That said, I don’t appreciate being called an idiot, and I don’t think many other atheists do either. We believe what we believe, and we have reasons to believe it. Turn it around. Presumably, you’re a theist. So, haven’t you “figured out” that God is real and atheism is a hoax? How is that any different from our position, save the fact that the roles are reversed? We see things at face value (so to speak), without the need for an invisible superhero in the sky. If you disagree, that’s fine– but we have the right to speak our beliefs as much as you do. You naturally hold all your personal beliefs and opinions to be the “true” ones– otherwise, there would be no opinions or beliefs. No one should be called an idiot for believing whatever they believe, and that extends to theists and atheists alike.
When people argue with you on very importent topics, you point out spelling mistakes. Some one trys to make a simple point you pull out you stupid fancy talk, “pascals wager”, fuck you and him.
We are not using “stupid fancy talk”– Pascal’s Wager is a common theological argument. Two minutes with Wikipedia would have given you all you needed to know. Instead, you used your own ignorance toward the subject to argue that we were using “fancy talk”.
If you wish to metaphorically tell Pascal of Pascal’s Wager “fuck you” then you may be interested to know that he was arguing for believing. Blaise Pascal said it was better to believe in God than not do so. It seems a ridiculous argument to me, but he was on your side.
Your hostility towards atheists is quite immature. Whether or not you agree with us, we’re still humans, and we still have feelings. Granted, seven characters on a computer screen aren’t going to make us feel too bad, but would you like to be on the receiving end of a “fuck you”? It certainly doesn’t make anyone feel better, and just incites anger and more hostilities. We live on this world together– making more hostilities doesn’t do us any good. The “fuck you” was entirely unnecessary.
Many a times I had debates with Infidelguy, he could not answer any of my questions.
Could you kindly link to said debates? I’m curious.
You know, I’ve had debates with theists, myself, and oddly enough, they’ve not been able to answer my questions, either. Does that mean that, based on the representation of one person, the entire group is ignorant? Senator Joseph McCarthy was an extremely biased anti-Communist Senator from Wisconsin. Does that mean that everyone from Wisconsin is an extremely biased anti-Communist Senator? We’d better hope not– states are supposed to have only two senators, not 5 million. Do not base your opinions of a group on the actions of one person. It is foolish.
You try to make a point but in vain. Like the simple fact of evalution. why do birds fly, you say because at one point they need to fly to catch flying insects. then why did the first insect fly ?
Let me first say this: I don’t know with certainty. I personally don’t know with certainty why the first insect flew, or the logical chain that extends back. The most plausible reason is to avoid predators on the ground, which would also be another reason that birds and other flying animals developed flight. However, I’m sure there are other hypotheses and explanations.
But that’s the whole point. Science can admit that it doesn’t know, but there are usually plenty of possible hypotheses. If there aren’t any, that still doesn’t mean that the theory or larger hypothesis in question is false.
Imagine you’re living centuries ago, before we can explain why things fly. There is a theory of gravity that says that all masses pull all other masses towards themselves with a force proportional to the masses’ sizes and the distance between said masses. Or, in general application, things fall down. This seems fairly sound– you’ve observed rocks, apples, buildings, and people falling down before– until one day, you see a bird flying. It’s not being pulled to the ground. You ask a local scientist or scholar or professor, and he has to admit he has no idea why the bird isn’t on the ground. Does that mean that there is no such thing as gravity? Of course not. Saying “I don’t know” isn’t the same as saying “I’m wrong.”
Jews, Christians and muslims , we beleive in the same god.
Yes, that’s generally accepted as true. However, all three religions have different interpretations and different ideas on how to please this God.
Here’s my advice to you: Don’t live in ignorance. Educate yourself. Learn all you can about evolution– not from your pastor or church leader, but from a scientist or another person who’s studied it. Attempt to see things from the other side. Confining yourself to only one viewpoint when debating only hinders you, and understanding why people believe what they do can be a great asset in the long run.
But most of all, understand that we’re all humans. Regardless of whether or not there’s a paradise waiting for (some of) us when we die, we’re all here right now. We may believe in different things, but we all have feelings, we all think, and we all have humanity. Don’t get so caught up in the fact that they believe in something else that you forget that they are people too.
Because they are, and everyone deserves to be treated as such.
——————————————————————————–
And then:
Spencer Says:
August 19th, 2006 at 1:57 pm EST
Ooo boy.
Hold on tight, folks, this is gonna be a bumpy ride.
Quoth the Watchnj, nevermore:
I honestly have more respect for person that worships a rock then an athesit.
I cannot believe you just said that.
There’s really no reply snarky enough to sum up my feelings. That’s just… mind-boggling.
oh I defenitly believe hellfire for the non-believers, are u a bit scared? or are 100% sure god is a hoax?
Pardon me, but come off it. You are growing increasingly full of yourself. No, I’m not scared, and I doubt many other atheists are, ’cause we don’t believe in hellfire. It’s hard to be afraid of something you are certain doesn’t exist. I’m not 100% sure, and I’m still unafraid. The two are not as mutually exclusive as you make them out to be.
who sets the morale code for you guys? who says what right and whats wrong ??
We say what’s right and wrong, based on our own internal code of morality, which has been shaped by thousands of years of evolution. Unlike many theists, our morals are not dependent upon the existence of a judgemental god and a reward/punishment system. If this is truly the case for the people who claim this, then all the good things they do and all the bad things they don’t do are not done out of love or compassion or kindness, but out of fear for their own selves. In other words, they don’t care about other people; they’re doing the “right” thing in order to further themselves. Atheists, who don’t lean on gods for morality, do things out of the goodness of their hearts, and for other people, rather than themselves.
I figure athesim is a scapegoat for gays, cause you cannot support the cause with religion.
What? That’s just so far-fetched that I can’t understand it. Could you please clarify what you mean so that others and I can respond?
Its not like it used to be , the wise and smart. Darwing and his buddies all been debunked by science.
Please show me the evidence of this. I’m curious as to the veracity of this claim, because I’ve had my ears up in the science scene for quite some time now, and haven’t heard anything about this.
Who got your back ? infadelguy?
You’re making the mistake of assuming that atheists need a superhero to rely upon. The fact is, many of us don’t. While theists lean on Jesus, Muhammad, God, or other heroic figures to “watch their back”, atheists simply don’t need that safety blanket. When we encounter troubles in life, we deal with them in reality, with the help of ourselves and other people. No hero’s “got our back”, ’cause we don’t need them to.
As far as science and the fossil record, you know i did not want to go this route because I really beleive that the people here are simple minded; but I will give you what you want. The fossil record disproves the theory of evolution.
1.The fossil record shows a sucession of forms (minute single celled organism,i.e bacteria and algae). 2 Multi celled invertebrates (sponges, snails and jellyfish) 3 Amphibians 4 Fiishes with backbones 5. Reptiles.
Darwin hoped that it would do more, he beleived the stages were linked. Darwin himself said that weakest point in his theory was the fact that there were no transiitional fossils.
I will ignore the blatantly offensive “simple minded” comment for the sake of keeping things as civil as possible. However, please note that it is not appreciated, and you are not doing anything to make us feel more welcoming about you by saying such things.
Regarding gaps in the fossil record, I advise you to follow this link. This is a quite recent discovery, and it fits that “gap in the fossil record” fairly well, don’t you think?
Again, I urge you to do some more research on your own time regarding evolution. Try to clear your mind of bias and actually study the process. It is quite fundamental when you actually examine the basics of evolution and genetics. Genes are passed on from parent to child. Through the process of meiosis, genetic information is randomly altered, resulting in mutations. The mutations that hinder the organism’s ability to survive are thrown out of the gene pool, as the organism dies or is unable to reproduce. The mutations that aid the organism in survival are passed on to future generations, since the organism can live longer or healthier and can thus reproduce more.
That is the fundamental concept of natural selection. I honestly cannot see how you could deny that– especially when there is recent documented proof of it happening.
if you like science you would love the Quran, google quran and sceince
I’m planning on reading the Quran soon. However, I sincerely doubt that an ancient holy book is going to have much to say regarding science, at least relevant science in this day and age. I’m going to have to call your comment a terrible attempt to get us to read the Quran by trying to convince us it’s “scientific”.
Don’t treat us like idiots. If you want us to read the Quran, recommend it to us, don’t insult our intelligence by trying to backhandedly sell it as a book of science.
21 August 2006, on 1:27 pm
Very good comments by Spencer. I gave up on the Watchnj dialogue after the “simple minded” remark, especially since a lot of his comments were becoming increasingly more difficult to understand with all the spelling and grammatical errors.
I did a brief search to see how the Qu’ran supported science and was quickly annoyed by the double-talk and wax noses of Qu’ran scholars. They appear to be willing to mold their noses in whatever direction necessary to make the Qu’ran scientifically relevant. I’ve seen biblical scholars in a similar way attempt to gloss over glaring errors in order to make the Bible less scientifically wrong. It’s very pathetic.
21 August 2006, on 2:02 pm
Spencer is a better man than I. This fundie is an idiot and I don’t feel any moral requirement to respect the beliefs of others. I WILL defend their right to believe what ever they want, but to paraphrase Robert Heinlein “stupid is stupid”. Politeness does require me not to challenge every theist who opens his or her mouth, particularly when they are not trying to ram what ever fairy tale they believe in down my throat. I will (and have often) attempted to enlighten the dim of mind, but I have no patience for arrogant ignorance. Childish beliefs held by adults with IQ’s > 100 is a sad commentary on the world we live in.
21 August 2006, on 2:14 pm
Apparently, Robert O’Brien is now spreading his hilarious schizophrenia over at Pharyngula.
21 August 2006, on 3:04 pm
I found Spencer’s response to watchnj’s“pascals wager”, fuck you and him”particularily amusing:
If you wish to metaphorically tell Pascal of Pascal’s Wager “fuck you” then you may be interested to know that he was arguing for believing. Blaise Pascal said it was better to believe in God than not do so. It seems a ridiculous argument to me, but he was on your side.
Watchnj must have been too embarrassed to responded to that.
21 August 2006, on 3:06 pm
Based on Watchnj’s comment, “Darwing (sic) and his buddies all been debunked by science,” I have to believe that Watchnj has been spending a little too much time with the lovely Ann Coulter. I has the great (mis)fortune of catching a bit her speech on C-Span (Book Talk, I think) and heard similar comments spewing forth from her forked tongue. I am not sure which is more disheartening, the hatred that comes from fundies, or the wide-eyed wonderment that shows on the faces of the sponges that are sucking it all up.
21 August 2006, on 3:15 pm
I’m still trying to figure out who “j” is and why he’s “Watchn” it.
21 August 2006, on 3:38 pm
I sell watches and from NJ, I banned from the other blogs with most of my comments deleted and changed.
am I banned from all blogs on this site, or just “fun with comments”.
21 August 2006, on 3:44 pm
Sells watches??? Like on a street corner? hmmm. I can imagine him on a street corner in Jersey, coming up to people and opening his trench coat and all these watches in the lining…”hey, wannabuy a ‘genuine’ Rolex?”
LOL!
21 August 2006, on 3:47 pm
no man, Authrized dealer of Movado, Seiko, Citizen, Sector, Bulova, Chase Durer, Luminox, Oakley Watches and shades, Casio, Mido, Nike, Kenneth Cole and much more. That why I type fast and have alot of mistakes, I have to keep attending customers.
21 August 2006, on 3:52 pm
Watchnj, we will ban you whenever you refuse to abide by our comment rules. We will ban you whenever you try to proselytize/witness/preach to us. We will ban you whenever your only response to our questions is “God/Allah/the Q’uran told me.” We require a lot more than you do to give up our nature-given reason, rationality, logic, critical thinking, and quite frankly, brains. Not only do you seem unwilling to improve your English, but you unethically sidestep our requests for incontrovertible, irrefutable, hard scientific evidence for the existence of the god-thing you believe in in the first place.
Besides, even if I did have an inclination to believe in your god, which I don’t, I would never join a religion that not only preaches the innate inferiority of women and their subjection to men, but that was also founded by a child-molester. Your q’uran contains just as many contradictions as the hebrew and xian bible, and in fact is only considered “real/true” in Arabic. I could go on, but quite frankly, you’re not worth it. You have nothing to offer me.
21 August 2006, on 3:56 pm
You have nothing to offer me.
Eve – he has some watches he can pawn off on you.
21 August 2006, on 3:59 pm
you are very wrong EVE, islam does not teach inferiority to women and subjection to men. Mohmmed was never a child molster, He married her and that was the comman practice among them. The girl was mature. Give one contradiction in the Quran. And if you can go on, I have alot to offer.
21 August 2006, on 4:01 pm
if a husaband cheats on his wife (has intercoarse with another woman) he is punished by death. is that in favor of the woman or man?
21 August 2006, on 4:18 pm
ok guys, this is what happened over the past few days. Watchnj started spamming and would not stop till he started getting “asshatted.”
21 August 2006, on 4:29 pm
Another clue that this clown may not be real is because even though I provided this in the other thread:
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
The idiot wrote this:
if a husaband cheats on his wife (has intercoarse with another woman) he is punished by death. is that in favor of the woman or man?
21 August 2006, on 4:29 pm
spamming ? dont exagarate .
21 August 2006, on 4:31 pm
15 or more deleted proseltyzing comments in a day and a half is not spamming?
How long are we going to let this little creep troll us?
21 August 2006, on 4:33 pm
There are many anti-muslim website and that one is one of them.
Apostates of Islam website is more honest and credible than you are watchnj.
21 August 2006, on 4:34 pm
Killing for arbitrary purposes – Quran say that neither man or woman are free to mary who they want to, cheating is also any out of marriage sex – is not in favor of any human being. And the same punishment is imposed to non beleviers (Christians and Jews are “on easy” because they beleve but wrong), so in whose favor is that? Any religion that serves death penalty is wrong. Any penalty given by religion for disobeying ther rules have to be accepted by convicted beliver so the worst should be “screw you guys, I’m going home” if that beliver disagrees.
Religion has nothing to offer but sensless fear.
And as of Islam, I can agree with any Moslim that “Allah is great” as long as they admit that “Internet is greater, and has Google, too”. Respect should be earned, and tolerance should go either way.
21 August 2006, on 4:40 pm
I say we ban him, but I don’t know how.
I love how Muslim apologists rationalize their prophet’s child molestation by writing it off as “customary of the day.” If someone is supposed to provide an example to people past, present, and future of all races, genders, and societies of what absolute morality is, they would not engage in a practice that some of those societies would later condemn as perverse. A True Prophet (TM) would know – or be informed by his god – that somewhere, sometime down the line someone would object to his act and that therefore he shouldn’t perform it.
It just goes to show that Mohammed was a product and man of his time despite his advances, like any other outstanding human leader. The religion he founded, just like many others, was built on regional paganism and previous monotheism, and raises one language (classical Arabic), place (Arabia), culture (southern Arabian), and gender (men) above all others. Once again, Islam and Watchnj have nothing to offer me.
21 August 2006, on 4:46 pm
Insect evolution is a fascinating subject. The first record we have of insects is a fossil collembola from the Devonian period, roughly 400 million years ago. Insect wings evolved from legs, just as insect mouthparts did. If you turn over a beetle or look at an earthworm you will notice that they are segmented – there is typically 1 pair of appendages per segment. Insects have not evolved flight once, but have gained and lost the ability to fly several times.
Male genitalia are frequently used to make species-level determinations in insects because there is a great deal of anatomical variety. Your god was very creative; there are some very convoluted and perverse genitals in the insect world. Considering the fact that insects comprise 21% of all known life on earth, your god must have spent a great deal of time on the subject of insect genitalia when he was creating the world.
21 August 2006, on 4:47 pm
you dont have to ban me, I will stop posting.
His mommy probably had some chores for him to do or his computer time limit is up. (Or he couldn’t understand what Eve just wrote.)
21 August 2006, on 5:00 pm
Sean…I am with Eve…this little fucker needs to be banned. I would do it, but can’t find that option thing you said to look for.
21 August 2006, on 5:15 pm
Watchnj isn’t just a dick, he’s an illiterate dick.
21 August 2006, on 5:19 pm
In addition to everything else, Watchnj is No True Muslim (TM). The houri will run from him in horror if he so much as peeks into paradise.
21 August 2006, on 5:48 pm
U have to beleive firmly in your religion from your heart.
Or what, you kill them? That’s exactly what your psychotic Quran tells you to do, isn’t it?
BAN THIS FUCKTARD BEFORE I GO TO JERSEY AND STRANGLE HIM WITH MY BARE HANDS!!!!!
21 August 2006, on 5:51 pm
ok…we will have to manually “unapprove” watchnj’s comments from this point on till Sean can come ban his IP address permanently.
21 August 2006, on 5:53 pm
Sorry, everyone; Star and I are trying to figure out how to ban him. I’ve never done it before myself, so this is a learning experience for me!
21 August 2006, on 6:05 pm
I have read this thread twice (with my reading glasses) and I still can’t figure out what Watchnj is trying to communicate but he is doing a fine job of being an pig’s ass. Between the broken English, spelling errors, and Islamic pretzel logic I get the idea that he is threatening to bombard us with hyperactive, nonsensical, Islamic messages until some one cuts him off. I try to understand, respect and debate other people’s opinions, but this guy is way out there…Almost so far out there that this smells like some H.S. punk with too much time on his hands, smoking a little weed, getting a huge laugh at messing with us. Ignore him and maybe he’ll go away?
21 August 2006, on 6:09 pm
Almost so far out there that this smells like some H.S. punk with too much time on his hands, smoking a little weed, getting a huge laugh at messing with us.
That’s what I think, too.
21 August 2006, on 6:12 pm
I see so many things wrong in this comment so I don’t know where to begin.
In your holy book the Qu’ran you find in several places that a man is worth two women, and a male should inherit twice the amount a female gets, and you still say Islam doesn’t teach that women are inferior to men?
You say the girl was mature, and that it was common practice. I don’t care how mature she was, but there is no way I can see a 6 year old being mature enough to be considered an adult, a mother and caretaker. We humans haven’t evolved that much in 1400 years that the age of a person reaching adulthood would have gone up 10+ years. A 6 year old is a child, now and then, she should never have been allowed to marry Mohammed at that age.
You ask for contradictions. We could start from the beginning. How many days did take to create the heavens and the earth, six (7:54) or eight (41:9-12)? What was man made of, blood (96:2), clay (15:26), dust (3:59) or something else (16:4)? And who was the first Muslim, Abraham (2:132), Moses(7:143) or Mohammad(39:12)? I could go on you know.
Do you believe in everything written today? No, so why should you believe in some written words just because they are 1400 years old?
21 August 2006, on 6:53 pm
From the moderation queue “Again read up and dont talk trash, the girl was 9 and mature. not 6.
It appears that watchnj is a pedophile.
Sean, where are you?
21 August 2006, on 6:57 pm
this is crazy, i leave for 3 months and i come back to all this fighting!
what happened to the good old days when gifs was a peaceful place where sean would criticize me for not ever using capital letters and marcus would hit on me and mess with my posts?
you guys have gotten sloppy.
by the way i’ve missed you guys
21 August 2006, on 7:02 pm
I’ve edited all watchnj’s comments as “spam”, beyond that takes a Sean or a Ron, I think.
21 August 2006, on 7:04 pm
RDZ – Thanks. I was going to do that but didn’t know if I should…but this asshat is clearly just dicking with us.
21 August 2006, on 7:07 pm
I don’t normally resort to this…but FUCK OFF WATCHNJ!
21 August 2006, on 7:51 pm
Shhh! Do you hear that? Blessed silence from the wingnut gallery. D’ya think Watchnj has some special someone to take him from behind while he’s kneeling towards Mecca-lecca-hi-mecca-heinie-hoe?
21 August 2006, on 7:56 pm
RDZ – It’s only a little break. His last message in the queue said he had to close up his “pawn shop” and go home (maybe mommy said computer time is up for the day)…my bet is that he will be back tomorrow.
21 August 2006, on 7:58 pm
NINE (9) YEARS OLD IS “MATURE???” AS IN MATURE ENOUGH FOR SEX WITH A 50-ODD-YEAR-OLD MAN???
Sorry for the caps, guys, but it came from the heart. Thank you so much, Rain, for messing with his posts!
Elianara, many thanks as well for the quranic contradictions. Mohammed’s “most beloved wife,” Ayesha/Aisha, was according to most scholars six years old when he married her and approximately nine years old when he “came to her,” in her own words (meaning, had sex with her).
And this is the guy whose “moral” example I’m supposed to follow as a non-Arabic woman in *this* day and age?!! This is the mouthpiece of the True Religion (TM)?!!
21 August 2006, on 7:58 pm
RDZ: “Mecca-lecca-hi-mecca-heinie-hoe?”
Did you just quote The Forbidden Zone??
21 August 2006, on 8:07 pm
Did you just quote The Forbidden Zone??
I thought he meant Pee Wee.
21 August 2006, on 8:10 pm
RDZ says:
Raindogzilla Says:
August 21st, 2006 at 2:14 pm EST
Apparently, Robert O’Brien is now spreading his hilarious schizophrenia over at Pharyngula.
Okay… Still recovering a bit from illness… Took me a while to catch up with what you were up to on this one, RDZ. Your impersonations at Pharyngula are hilarious. You seem to have driven him right up the wall. I have no problem with it, because the first thing the fucker did was come in here and viciously ad hom me with no actual argument at all.
What I think is most classic is that you now have him referring to GifS as “The wretched hive of scum and villainy.”
Eve, if you could please add that to your list of classic fundie quotes, I would greatly appreciate it!
21 August 2006, on 8:19 pm
Mecca-lecca-high-mecca-heinie-ho is the incantation for the genie head in a box known as Jambi(sp?) on Peewee’s playhouse. I’m not sure whether I’d rather be “scum”, “villainy”, or both.
21 August 2006, on 8:29 pm
*takes notes* “…scum and villainy.” Got it, Sean! Hope you’ll soon be back in fighting form, and your sister too.
*gazes mistily into distance* Wow – if GifS is a hive of villainy, then for the first time in my life, I’m a villainess. That merits a costume change as in comic-bookdom, no? I seem to recall a thread a few months back where I came up with a T-shirt idea; hmmm…
21 August 2006, on 8:42 pm
Yup, found it: “Written in big, bold, blood-red Gothic lettering on a tight black T-shirt clinging to a female atheist’s torso: ‘Vicious Hellcat of Satan (Sean’s description of most female GifSters’ tactics)!’”
21 August 2006, on 8:42 pm
Eve writes:
Besides, even if I did have an inclination to believe in your god, which I don’t, I would never join a religion that not only preaches the innate inferiority of women and their subjection to men, but that was also founded by a child-molester. Your q’uran contains just as many contradictions as the hebrew and xian bible, and in fact is only considered “real/true” in Arabic. I could go on, but quite frankly, you’re not worth it. You have nothing to offer me.
Bravo! Bravo! Standing ovation!
21 August 2006, on 8:46 pm
Why, thank you, Lynda! *sniff* I’m getting a little teary, what with just officially becoming a villainess and all…
21 August 2006, on 9:58 pm
I’m all for banning the nuisance. The link below is of what can happen when you allow them to come and hope they go away. This is from the no god blog. The name to look for is Javier. I invited him here(gifs) to comment once. He failed to do so. He dominated the blog for about a month. And they let him. Bad idea. I speak for myself but I have had enough of that defending and debating. Let them go somewhere else.
http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2006/07/02/in_facts_we_trust_1#comments
RDZ
I laughed at that on Pharangula.
Eve
Standing ovation The crowd cheers. YYAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY
21 August 2006, on 10:15 pm
Jimmer, I’d like to think I had a hand in getting the unesteemed Mr. O’Brien banned at Pharyngula- along with another fundie troll called “Jason”. PZ has disemvowelled them, making their posts read like shorthand. Personally, I think it’s more fun to completely change the content and intent of their posts but PZ’s working solo and has way more comments than we do.
21 August 2006, on 10:36 pm
There is no god…but, uh-uh, no ifs, ands, or buts. But how am I now to explain to my sainted wife when she gets home from the third grade?
21 August 2006, on 10:43 pm
RDZ
If you did indeed help to have that Jason guy banned good for you. You should be getting and award in the mail.
21 August 2006, on 11:23 pm
Hey quys. He’s kind of funny, doncha think? To beleive sience and its explainations of are universe (yes, including freeing us from the fere of Qod and qays that our barbaric ancestors had) is evle, but hating everywon unlike areselves is totally ryechus.
21 August 2006, on 11:40 pm
Oh, man, what a treat it was to check this blog this evening and see that my comments have been regarded as “the best of”.
Thanks, guys, for the attention (honestly, who doesn’t love it?
) and the kind words in the comments here.
I’ll keep my eye on the comments for more chances to say things. I don’t get to “debate” (term used quite loosely) theists too often, and it’s always a relief to just let the floodgates loose and express myself.
22 August 2006, on 12:49 am
Just the thought of all you GifS villanesses, wearing…”big, bold, blood-red Gothic lettering on a tight black T-shirt clinging to [your] female atheist’s torso[s]“…has got me all excited!
Should we plan on a wet T-shirt party for our Xmas eve rendezvous?
Yeah,…OK…and to be fair?…for the guys…wet shorts? [But...HOW wet?]
As to the “watchnj” idiot..I had just come off of Stardust’s Carlin posting to witness that asshat’s bullshit! Yikes!
Sorta, ala HBO’s “Deadwood”: [voice of Ian McShane?]
“Ban the Fucktard;…and throw him to Wu’s pigs!”
[Yeah…I know...For those familiar with the series!]
22 August 2006, on 2:32 am
Sean – just a word to the wise on reading the Qur’an. Its really hard, if not downright impossible, to really “read.” Firstly, its written in prose, so its a bit like trying to read the entire Bible as if its “Psalms.” Secondly, its not written in order, but organized by length of chapters (called Surahs). Thus, if you want their version of “creation” you have to jump around because it could be hidden in a number of places, in a far more disorganized fashion than say, the four gospels of the Bible. Now, mind you, it was not organized this way by any mistake. The Caliph Uthman (c 644 CE) organized it in this way to facilitate memorization, rather than “comprehension.” In my opinion, Islam for the masses is very much a “memorization” issue. Follow the rituals, etc.
Now, Islamic scholarship is a much different matter, because this requires a knowledge of jurisprudence, and this delves into “hadith literature” and the four major schools of Islamic thought. Islamic scholars are often very intelligent, and not easy to debate.
For someone of your talents, its not hard to see past the major contradictions/absurdities of the Qur’an. However, you might find that in a hardcore debate with a Muslim scholar its harder than you might imagine to nail them down, because Islam is a very nuanced religion that really requires years of study to have a firm grasp of it.
My advice to you would be to NOT read the Qur’an, and instead read an ‘unbiased’ (relative term) history of the origins of Islam, in a college textbook. You can then understand where many modern practices of Muslims originated.
If you truly study Islam and the Middle East, you’ll be able to stop a dumbass a mile away (like Bacon) because they just don’t know what they are talking about. For example, the Qur’an is actually a compilation of “revelations” by Mohammad over a period of 40 years. This is why large parts of the Qur’an are inconsistant, and newer verses trump older verses where they contradict (called abrogations). In early parts of the Qur’an, Jews are to be respected and in fact Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem because it was the early locus of Islam. However, when Jewish assasins in Yathrib (today called Medina after it was Islamisized) tried to kill Mohammad, he really started to turn on them. Furthermore, in the early days of Islam Mohammad needed as many converts as possible, so he couldn’t afford to be anti-semetic. Its only after he secured Arabia as an Islamic entity, that he was comfortable enough in alienating Jews.
The complex history of Islam leaves little for simplistic statements, and frankly, most Muslims don’t know their own histories. Just as you probably know more about Christianity than many Christians, you might find after a few months of study, you know more about Islam than most Muslims – that would be because you study it objectively, rather than for memorization and “brownie points” with papa Imam!
Anyways, hope all is well and thanks for all the kind words you’ve said about me in the past. I really enjoy your blog and consider you one of the brightest intellectuals on the blogosphere.
22 August 2006, on 2:41 am
PS – if I had to advise two books in beginning a secular study of Islam and the Middle East it would be: “The Formation of Islam” by Jonathan P Berkey. And for an introduction to the debate over Middle East scholarship, read “Orientalism” by Edward Said. The conservative, pro-Iraq war version of Middle Eastern history, is available by Dr. Bernard Lewis. He has written books like “What Went Wrong” and “The Crisis of Islam” so if you want that side of history it can be useful, although I personally don’t agree with his version of history.
To really understand the history, you’ve got to be prepared to dump a lot of preconceptions you may have. For example, don’t think of Islam as a monolithic entity that started in 622 all the way to 9/11. Their are HUGE differences between the Ottoman’s, the Abassids, Ummayads, Fatimids, Seljuks, etc even though they are all “Muslim.” Different sects, different ideologies, different starts and stops to their histories.
Indeed, Islam only really got “radicalized” in our sense of the concept in the 1700s under the Wahabi’s which forged an alliance with the House of Saud to take over the Arabian peninsula. Most radical movements prior to this died out in the sands of history, even though some of their ideas live on in modern extreme Islamic movements (like the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, etc). Hezbollah, Hamas, etc are all newcomers to the extremist game.
When you can tell the difference between one Muslim extremist and another, you’ve truly started to understand Islam! They are actually each quite different, and hate different things for different reasons.
22 August 2006, on 5:09 am
Mecca-lecca-hi-mecca-heinie-hoe!
Ah, yes, RDZ! I remember now. It is indeed Pee-Wee. I met him once, Paul Reubens. No, he wasn’t masturbating at the time. Another story for another day.
22 August 2006, on 5:25 am
Re: WatchNJ… Banned. We’ll see if he has half a brain to find his way back in. If then I will take further measures.
Sorry, guys. I have been sick. But getting back on the horse now.
22 August 2006, on 5:33 am
James Says:
this is crazy, i leave for 3 months and i come back to all this fighting!
what happened to the good old days when gifs was a peaceful place where sean would criticize me for not ever using capital letters and marcus would hit on me and mess with my posts?
you guys have gotten sloppy.
by the way i’ve missed you guys
Welcome back, James! Don’t get too uppity.
Where ya been?
22 August 2006, on 9:42 am
sean, you know i’m uppity for JC 24/7, but i also know you guys are too smart for that…(wink-wink)
i got married and haven’t had the internet, so i haven’t been able to play, though i’m pretty sure i would have met the same fate as watchnj after awhile. but if it’s cool, i’ll contribute here and there, and i know, i know, play by the rules and i won’t get, i think it’s called, ass-hatted?
anyways, hope you all are well.
22 August 2006, on 9:50 am
but i also know you guys are too smart for that
James – that is an absolutely true statement.
22 August 2006, on 11:40 am
attention mods: watchnj has used another IP address and is now posting sex spam throughout the archives. It got past moderation somehow.
IP# 66.230.167.245
22 August 2006, on 12:05 pm
the dude is probably some 13 year old who hasn’t started school yet, give it a week and he’ll be gone
22 August 2006, on 12:12 pm
Okay, I’ve put him in “double secret probation.” Let’s see if his dumb ass goes away.
Somebody offer him some pork rinds and scare his little Muslim ass off already!
James: welcome back. Nah, don’t go gettin’ asshatted and you can still be a pal of JC around here.
22 August 2006, on 1:34 pm
SteveGuess, yes, Islamic history and indeed the religion itself is not quite as “monolithic” as many describe it. Like I mentioned once before, my college Islamic Civilization class is far behind me now, but I remember Mohammed’s changing attitudes toward the Jews and the “split” in the religion that came after he died. Am I recalling correctly, or didn’t the Fatimids of Egypt separate from the Caliphate because their “foremother,” his daughter Fatima, was denied her inheritance or something like that?
I also seem to remember a battle between one of Mohammed’s sons and his favorite widow, Ayesha/Aisha – or something like that as well. Seems like a guy with a direct line to god would have left more specific and comprehensible “instructions” of what to do once he was gone.
22 August 2006, on 9:08 pm
SteveGuess: Thanks for the wisdom on studying Islam. I have my Koran on my bookshelf and have picked it up many times — but as an autodidact, I have never been given any structure on how to approach it. Maybe if I get to retire young I will do more of a scholarly study of it.
So much time, so little to learn.
Wait. Scratch that. Reverse it.
Thank you for your kind words as well. I am not very good at taking compliments, but I was very flattered. I do, however, always enjoy being told that I am cute.
23 August 2006, on 2:36 am
Eve – yes you have a great memory! The Fatimids were “Shia,” specifically Ismaili Shia which means they believed that Ali, who was in the bloodline of the Prophet should have succeeded him as Caliph. What really happened after the Prophet died (according to Shia’s) was a bit of a coupe where Abu Bakr took over instead of the bloodline of the Prophet. Thats the main difference between Shia’s and Sunni’s, at least on a historical level (there are different rituals, etc of course). Sunni’s believe in rule by “consensus” which means Abu Bakr took over because the main Islamic leaders wanted him to. Shia’s believe, who the fuck cares, the relatives of the Prophet should have taken over.
Modern Shia’s are a bit different from the Fatimids and modern Ismaili’s. Ismaili’s believe in Seven relatives of the Prophet that should have succeeded him. Iranian Shia’s are called “twelvers” which means twelve descendents of the Prophet are recognized as the rightful rulers of the community, and all other caliphs are imposters on the throne, so to speak.
The twelth imam went missing (probably murdered), but twelver Shia’s believe he will return some day (the Mahdi) and have a day of judgement.
As for the Prophets views towards Jews, there is a LOT of discussion on this topic, for obvious reasons. Some scholars believe that he was ignorant of Jews, and that accounts for the main differences between Islam and Christianity and Judaism, not that God changed, or people misunderstood God, but that Mohammad didn’t understand things like the trinity and Jewish ideas, so he went ahead and setup his religion (which was originally just an extension of the Abrahimic faiths) with his knowledge as a merchant (which traveled many different areas and religious groups) which was spotty at best, being in one area only long enough to get a basic idea what each faith believed.
Sean – Well, its a worthwhile study if you find the time! I was just giving you a heads up that the Qur’an is WAAAAY boring, and won’t make much sense if you just try to read it. You have to read it in conjunction with something else, or get a fancy Qur’an with a glossary showing what sections cover what topics.
I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on islam once you’ve had the time to study it. Unfortunately, most people who study religion are religious themselves so it taints the results. A good atheist scholar of Islam (who isn’t eurocentric) is definitely needed in this world!
Keep up the good work,
-steve
23 August 2006, on 3:09 am
Steve: Do you have an annotated Koran to recommend?
Spencer: You’re welcome. Your brilliant comments were well worth it.
23 August 2006, on 1:15 pm
Steve, thank you; I guess I’ve still got most of my little gray cells! Abu Bakr – the father of Ayesha/Aisha, folks, Mohammed/Muhammad’s favorite wife and the one he is reputed to have wed when she was six years old (and apparently first slept with at nine – when she was “mature” [Watchnj's word, not mine]).
Now wouldn’t Mo’s life make a fascinating soap opera, Dynasty style?
Yay again, Spencer!
24 August 2006, on 12:16 am
RDZ et al.,
Replying about Robert O’Brien (or O’Brian, or just bran, it produces shite nontheless), the spoofing at Pharyngula was priceless, and appreaciated as a joke on someone who was obviously brainless and vicious as well. So, thanks for the amusement.
I have started a new bookmark folder, titled Stupid, and Robert O’ (put on the Oh’face (think Office Space, and you will get the reference)) will be the first link. Need to go find Jason of Shock and Blog disgrace, and add that little bugger as well. Keep up the good conversations, and keep providing me links to stupidity as amusement.
Shame that watchn’j doesn’t have a blog, could have added it in as well….
(P.S. Please forgive any fuck ups of english or spelling, I just don’t feel like figuring out how to check a blog post. I post rarely anyways, so fuck it.)
16 September 2006, on 4:24 am
To really understand the history, you’ve got to be prepared to dump a lot of preconceptions you may have. For example, don’t think of Islam as a monolithic entity that started in 622 all the way to 9/11. Their are HUGE differences between the Ottoman’s, the Abassids, Ummayads, Fatimids, Seljuks, etc even though they are all “Muslim.” Different sects, different ideologies, different starts and stops to their histories.
I knew this much. Thanks, Steve. I will be checking out the books you recommend.
15 March 2007, on 8:07 pm
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