Comments on: A Lament for the Middle East

By: Eve

Eve — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:15:32 +0000

RA: “Such characteristics originally emerged in several different parts of the prehistoric world: Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, India, the central Andes, and Mesoamerica.”/Not enough is known, ergo, the cradle of civilization is, by default Mesopotamia.

So far, so it seems, RA. Maybe Sumer’s monumental buildings (ziggurats, palace complexes, etc.) plus its wealth of art continue to put it “ahead of the pack,” so to speak – at least, as of now.

By: Reluctant Atheist

Reluctant Atheist — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:41:50 +0000

Eve:
Absolutely agree with you, RA, but again, I’m not maintaining that Sumer was the “oldest” human settlement.
The distinction was made, this is true.
You and I are not at odds on this issue; we’re simply emphasizing different aspects, that’s all.
Sorry: all this heat is making me a touch grumpy. My profuse apologies to all.
What qualifies as a civilization, exactly? We know so little about the Harappan settlements.
The Encyclopedia defines it as:
“The specific characteristics of civilization are: food production (plant and animal domestication), metallurgy, a high degree of occupational specialization, writing, and the growth of cities. Such characteristics originally emerged in several different parts of the prehistoric world: Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, India, the central Andes, and Mesoamerica.”
Not enough is known, ergo, the cradle of civilization is, by default Mesopotamia.

By: Eve

Eve — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:38:49 +0000

Absolutely agree with you, RA, but again, I'm not maintaining that Sumer was the "oldest" human settlement. I'm reiterating what the experts say, which is, as I mention above, "Sumer is 'considered the first settled society in the world to have manifested all the features needed to qualify fully as a "civilization;" there are far older human settlements discovered, just not manifesting 'all the features needed to qualify fully as a "civilization."' A subtle distinction but an important one nonetheless…" Plus, take a look at the map of the Fertile Crescent, in which the "so-called Neolithic Revolution" occurred at circa 9000 BCE: it includes Mesopotamia, and the article refers to the entire region as also being known as the Cradle of Civilization. You and I are not at odds on this issue; we're simply emphasizing different aspects, that's all.

By: Raindogzilla

Raindogzilla — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 13:17:22 +0000

RA, the “crack” wasn’t meant at you. It just occurred to me while writing the rest of the comment, so I added it. Didn’t intend to imply some connection with the Harappans.

By: Reluctant Atheist

Reluctant Atheist — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:39:54 +0000

Raindogzilla:
Maybe my Math is wrong but aren’t 3338, 3213, and 3203 BCE all more recent than 5000BCE?
My error. The Atlantis crack, however, was unwarranted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappan_civilization
“The Indus Civilization was predated by the first farming cultures in South Asia, which emerged in the hills of what is now called Balochistan, to the west of the Indus Valley. North Eastern Balochistan is connected to Afghanistan by passes over the Toba Kakar Range. Valleys on the Makran coast are open towards the Arabian Sea. Through these routes Balochistan was in contact with West Asia and took part in the so-called Neolithic Revolution, which took place in the Fertile Crescent around 9000 to 6000 BCE. The earliest evidence of sedentary lifestyle in South Asia was discovered at Mehrgarh in the foothills of the Brahui Hills. This settlement is dated 7000 BCE and was located on the west bank of the Bolan River, about 30 kilometres from the town of Sibi. These early farmers domesticated wheat and a variety of animals, including cattle. In the “Era” terminology, the aceramic Neolithic is known as the “Early Food Producing Era”.
Pottery was in use by around 5500 BCE, taken to initiate the “Regionalization Era”. It has been surmised that the inhabitants of Mehrgarh migrated to the fertile Indus river valley as Balochistan became arid due to climatic changes. The Indus Civilization grew out of this culture’s technological base, as well as its geographic expansion into the alluvial plains of what are now the provinces of Sindh and Punjab in contemporary Pakistan and Northern India. By 4000 BCE farming communities spread further east to other parts of Balochistan and Lower Sind. Later this culture spread to Upper Sind, Punjab and the western states of India.”
It was my understanding that traces of civilization were found dating as far back as 9000 BCE, in the Indus Valley (which makes 5000 BCE more recent).

By: Eve

Eve — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:54:30 +0000

Lynda: The “cradle of civilization” has become the cemetery of children.

Too true, and in many ways it probably always has been. Societies have crumbled and fallen, most often beneath the sweep of war, in that exact same region since Sumer finally gave way to the Babylonian Empire. The ancient Mesopotamians would be aghast at the weapons of destruction we wield today – but they’d probably turn right around and use them against their own enemies first chance they could get.

By: Lynda

Lynda — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:24:05 +0000

The “cradle of civilization” has become the cemetery of children. I don’t think civilization has yet come to the world. Humans have always behaved with the same animalistic territorial instincts that other animals exhibit. Just because we can draw pictures, carve figures out of stone and write characters on paper we think we’ve accomplished something. Ha! The world is crumbling around us and we continue to cut down trees, bomb buildings, burn oil, shit in our drinking water and erect houses on dwindling farm land. We are soooooo civilized.

By: Sean

Sean — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 20:37:45 +0000

There ain’t no Atlantis, folks. Prove me wrong.