Things Go Apeshit in the Middle East
15 July 2006 by SeanUpdate: Some great discussion in letters to the editor of the San Francisco Chronicle.
Okay. I can no longer stay silent. Right now, as we all know, Gaza is burning and Lebanon looks like all-out war.
I have a Lebanese friend who actually welcomes this. He is sick of Hezbollah and doesn’t give a shit about the pounding of Lebanon’s infrastructure. He sees it as a necessity to both go after Hezbollah and send a message to the Lebanese government that they have to stop being weak on the issue of these militants operating within their borders.
Talking to him always makes the situation a lot more complex in the mind of an anti-war Libby like me. But I still don’t like the massive show of force we are seeing from Israel (whose mighty military, of course, comes from us). Whenever any situation reaches this level of military activity, lots of innocent people start to die, and I fucking hate that.
Anyway. I just wanted to bring it up to the GifS crowd, because the whole thing is upsetting and fucked up and seems to be dragging us backwards in time.
Again, my friend who grew up under Syrian shelling as a kid in Beirut nonetheless welcomes this. He thinks we need to see some serious hardline responses or the terrorism will never stop.
What do you think?
[PS: My friend does have family there -- his parents, in fact -- but for now they are safe in the north.]
15 July 2006, on 6:52 am
I’m still supporting the “Move Israel to Utah- or maybe Dick Cheney’s homestate of Wyoming” Campaign. Until then, there’s a lot of things to ponder.
Is it sporting to fund Israel’s war machine to the tune of billions annually?
Should they be forced to face the geopolitical reality of their chosen homeland on their own?
How does Israel’s existing nuclear capability differ from Iran’s desired one- bearing in mind the militaristic stance of the Israelis?
Is it terrorism to use any means available to dislodge a hostile occupying force?
Is it possible, really, to criticize Israel without being labeled “anti-semitic”?
If we evacuated the entire “holy” land, flattened every structure, and moved the entire US pigfarming industry there, would that end this mess- if only to present both sides with a common enemy? The pigs, people, the pigs.
Is it true that Jesus Christ never knew the pleasure of a “Sandwich”?
Could we disarm Israel, give them part of the Sudan as a homeland, and then air “Shin Bet versus Janjaweed” on pay-per-view?
What possible reason could a Rapture-seeker like our president have for keeping the conflict going?
15 July 2006, on 8:22 am
The funniest part of your entry was “anti-war liberal”. Heee he he.
15 July 2006, on 9:28 am
Francois Tremblay Says:
The funniest part of your entry was “anti-war liberal”. Heee he he.
Francois the Driveby Libertarian: For the umpteenth time, what the fuck are you talking about? I am, quite frankly, a bit sick of your meaningless comments. If you have something to say it, say it. What the flying fuck are you trying to say?
15 July 2006, on 9:36 am
What about the threats the militants are making and who want to wipe out Israel and then next the United States? Since 911 and other terrorist attacks around the globe since, this is quite frightening to me. Even if Israel disappeared off the map, they would turn to us next. The ones who are helping the Palestinians recently have been saying repeatedly that is their goal.
15 July 2006, on 9:57 am
RDZ said:
Is it possible, really, to criticize Israel without being labeled “anti-semitic”?
You nailed it. This is what I am sick of. This subject is completely off-limits with any of my Jewish-American friends, no matter how long I have known them or how liberal they are. As soon as Israel comes up, I have to shut the fuck up or I am being an anti-Semite.
I am at the point where I reject this argument openly. I want a frank discussion on all sides.
The awesome Molly Ivins had an excellent piece on this back in April.
I also have Palestinian-American friends and their people’s suffering has to stop being brushed under the rug. We need an open and honest discussion about all of this, because it is mucking with the security of the entire planet.
Stardust said: What about the threats the militants are making and who want to wipe out Israel and then next the United States for religious reasons?
Do you really think the links to resentment of the United States in relation to Israel are merely religious in origin? These people aren’t completely stupid. They know where Israel gets its weapons from. And then we have the whole frightening pro-Israel American evangelical campaign, which some Jews have embraced. Don’t they realize these evangelicals could give a fuck about the Jewish people? They just think they are helping to usher in the Rapture, the crazy fucks.
15 July 2006, on 10:16 am
Do you really think the links to resentment of the United States in relation to Israel are merely religious in origin?
Not between Israel and the United States, but palestinian motives are in huge part religious. Why would these Palestinian people teach their young children to strap bombs to themselves and train them to violence instead of peaceful measures if religion was not a big part of it?
Check out this. Children for Palestine
To me, this is sick to sacrifice one’s CHILDREN this way.
15 July 2006, on 10:16 am
All this claptrap about “they hate us for our freedom” and they want to take over the US is complete BS. They hate us, like Sean said, for our blind support of Israeli policy, our outfitting the Israeli military with the latest of our technology, and IMNSHO, for our rather schizophrenic foreign policy in the region.
We allow Israel to go nuclear while screaming and invading anyone else who might dare to think about it.
Saddam goes from bosom buddy against Iran- using chemicals he got from, say it with me, us, to an aggressor in Kuwait, and, finally, to the fictional architect of 9/11.
A democratically elected leader in Iran is overthrown by us to install our buddy the Shah- and to prevent the nationalization of the Iranian oil fields. Pahlavi’s excesses and secret police give us the Ayatollah Khoumeini and on through to Ahmadinejad, who was one of the original hostage takers in 1979.
Our relationship with the Saudi royals has helped keep them in power while the wahhabis grow more and more virulent within the country itself- and weren’t 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 Saudi.
Oh, and did I mention Osama and his CIA training? Our foreign policy makers seem to have either no understanding or not care about the future repercussions of today’s actions. I mean, if this stuff is obvious to a non- policy wonk like myself…
15 July 2006, on 10:33 am
Saddam goes from bosom buddy against Iran- using chemicals he got from, say it with me, us, to an aggressor in Kuwait, and, finally, to the fictional architect of 9/11.
I hate this playing one tyrrant against the other, being buddies with them for our own purposes, and taking calling them the “great satan” the next. It’s appalling all the butt kissing that goes on behind the scenes. Oh what a tangled web humans weave.
15 July 2006, on 10:40 am
Star: I am not saying that religion is not the conduit by which a lot of the violence is accomplished, I am saying that religion is not the reason people like the Palestinians connect the United States to Israel. It is our unwavering military support, and our unwillingness to ever sanction Israel for anything.
15 July 2006, on 10:43 am
Star, you’re right that religion plays a big part in the tactics of the jihadists, of Hamas and Hezbollah- and even in the claim of bin Laden of US troops on holy Saudi soil as a reason for 9/11. I mean, you have to have some martyrdom doctrine in your religion for people to be willing to blow themselves to smithereens. But the source of the enmity is, I think, almost entirely political for the reasons I stated above.
15 July 2006, on 10:46 am
I will go so far as to say that the situation is very troublesome, there are descent points on both sides to the argument, and that I would like to avoid involvement.
And I’m spent.
15 July 2006, on 10:51 am
Sean – Just a question here (I am not saying this defensively…it’s hard to express voice tones in these threads) because all of this confuses the hell out of me…what do you think would happen in the middle east if Israel gave Palestine what it wanted, and if the U.S. backed out of the middle east and just minded our own business? Would they just go about their merry-goat-herding and be satisfied to live peacefully and leave the world alone? I am cynical about this. I think they wouldn’t be happy with just that.
The Palestinian muslims of the 50+ mosques around Chicagoland are presently teaching their children to hate the infidel (meaning all of the west). Bridgeview…a suburb of Chicago is the headquarters for Palestinian muslims in the U.S. and who are promoting propaganda that Islam will one day “win” America for Allah. This makes me nervous.
15 July 2006, on 10:57 am
How long do you think it will be before you see the religious right proclaiming the end of the world? Bush is demanding all sorts of things, but I bet he wants this because, somehow, they believe this will bring about the end of the world.
Suffice to say Israel is no better than the terrorists they’re going after.
You won’t get the truth from our media. Just like when Bush’s war started, they won’t ask any tough questions until it’s too late to do any good.
15 July 2006, on 11:01 am
How long do you think it will be before you see the religious right proclaiming the end of the world?
Xian fundies all do this every time there is a skirmish in the middle east, which has been off and on during my whole 51 years of life.
15 July 2006, on 11:02 am
RDZ and Stardust: Yes, what a tangled web. I am sick of this being a right-wing/left-wing discussion. The facts RDZ points out are indisputable. I am tired of those who don’t live in the “reality-based community” trying to twist the details of Middle East history, ancient and modern, like they try to twist the “facts” about the bibble and everything else. We have mucked this up every way it can be mucked up… And I mean everybody. As Lya once said, no side is clean.
I am not taking sides. I am just world-weary of the silence while this one tiny little portion of the world drags us all to hell. Let’s fucking talk about solutions. My Lebanese friend mentioned above is himself so world-weary (his stories of rushing to the lobbies of buildings — there were no bomb shelters — as a kid to avoid Syrian shells are so disturbing) just wants to see it all settled. He is so cynical now he just says: “Look, you want to live in the Middle East, you live under the brainwashing and control of Syria and Iran, or you live under the brainwashing and control of Israel and the United States. There is no in-between. Pick and choose. Just bomb the fuck out of each other, use nukes if you have to, I just don’t care. Just end the fucking fighting already so we aren’t still living with this 100 years from now.” He said this just last night, in fact.
Frankly, I can’t be that nihilistic. I need more hope.
Marcus Says:
I will go so far as to say that the situation is very troublesome, there are decent points on both sides to the argument, and that I would like to avoid involvement.
And I’m spent.
I hear ya. I would just say that we can no longer afford not to be involved.
15 July 2006, on 11:04 am
Bush is demanding all sorts of things, but I bet he wants this because, somehow, they believe this will bring about the end of the world.
I don’t think Bush believes in this end of the world crap…he just kisses the religious folks asses to get his way on things. For Bush and his cronies it’s about control, not armageddon.
15 July 2006, on 11:06 am
Could be Stardust.
You’re right about the end of the world bullshit. I was watching a show, I forget what it was or what channel, and some guy came on saying everytime there was anything happening in the middle east his mom would tell him to get ready because Jesus was coming back.
What a great time to take philosophy filled with xians. Oh boy.
15 July 2006, on 11:09 am
15 July 2006, on 11:14 am
I have been penfriends with a woman named Esty in Tel Aviv for ten years now (I have penfriends around the world in about 23 different countries) and she is very weary of all this warring also and just wants to LIVE LIFE in peace. She had no control that she happened to be born in Israel. Her whole life has been living with the concern about suicide bombers in the back of her mind. She wrote me when her two kids went off to serve their MANDATORY military service and she was deeply afraid for them and her letters reflected her worries (a boy and a girl)…they came back safely and are now at the university. She has two younger kids coming up to the age of military service and she is worried again. It’s always the common people who get caught up in the middle of this bullshit. I am so glad I was born here instead of the fucked-up middle east.
15 July 2006, on 11:15 am
What a great time to take philosophy filled with xians. Oh boy.
Matt- you have my sympathies.
15 July 2006, on 11:43 am
I equate the establishment of Israel to, say, the UN coming to us and saying, you guys really jobbed the Cherokees when you force marched them out to Oklahoma. So, we’re going to create a new, Cherokee homeland consisting of North Georgia- including Atlanta, and most of North Carolina. The people currently residing there will be allowed to remain though their schools, churches, and other infrastructure may be demolished in favor of more Chrokee friendly architecture. We will be building a wall around the homeland to keep out those pesky redneck suicide bombers so, if you don’t want to be closed in, you should get out. Oh, and just in case the uppity Americans get any bright ideas about giving the land back to the rednecks, our new Cherokee government will be equipped with nuclear missiles.
So then, the refugee rednecks try to settle in the abundant redneck meccas of Alabama, Virginia, Mississippi, Tennessee, and the Florida panhandle but are turned away at the border by state governments who want to use them as an issue rather than actually help them, leading to squalid refugee trailer parks all along the Cherokee wall. The displaced rednecks declare war on Cherokeeland but, armed with only birdshot and old appliance-throwing trebuchets, they aren’t really much of a threat.
Cherokeeland is not self-supporting. Other Indian tribes across the nation send percentages of their gaming profit to the fledgling nation and supply them, through lobbyists in the Canadian Parliament, with the latest in Canadian military technology.
Aw, fuck it. The point was that it was a dumbass idea to give them the homeland in the first place. As reparations go, a big chunk of Germany would have been a better location.
15 July 2006, on 12:42 pm
RDZ, great summary of the situation. However, like Star said, the people born in Israel after the initial occupation/settling, or whatever the hell you want to call it, didn’t ask to be born their, but they were. So then what do you do? On one hand, you have an entire group of people who have been dispossed and who live in a situation comparable to what South Africa used to look like, on the other hand you have people who didn’t create the initial situation but have inherited it. Then it gets even more interesting because one party faced genocide 60-70 years ago so people feel sorry for them and give them a bigger level of allowance than would be afforded to another group not victimized by Nazi Germany. This same group is artificially propped up by the U.S. and is able to fight any insurgency or rebellion with a modern and powerful military while the other side feels that it’s forced to use extreme measures (i.e. suicide bombers or attacking civilians) to fight its battles.
I look at the situation this way: suffering a terrible injustice does not give anyone the right to perpetrate terrible injustices. Right now, Israel has no motivation to pursue a diplomatic resolution to this conflict because they have superior power and resources. If those resources were removed, would diplomacy take over or would there be full-scale civil war? As far as the current situation goes, this all started because one Israeli soldier was taken captive. One. Now Lebannon is being attacked along with Gaza and countless people will die becuase there is a need for vengeance over one captured soldier. It is this mindset of the constant need for retalliation that will keep this conflict going and going and it’s sad as hell.
15 July 2006, on 12:59 pm
My pal Esty in Tel Aviv said that even when it seems “peaceful”, there is constant “rock throwing” with small bombs and shit back and forth over the border by people who hate each other. Every time they get close to some sort of agreement and the Palestinian leaders and Israeli leaders are willing to work something out, the militants get all crazy again calling their leaders “wimps”.
15 July 2006, on 1:58 pm
“However, like Star said, the people born in Israel after the initial occupation/settling, or whatever the hell you want to call it, didn’t ask to be born their, but they were. So then what do you do?”
I say that’s their tough shit and their responsibility to bear for the irresponsible actions of their fathers and grandfathers. No, they didn’t ask to be born there but they could just, you know, move. I just cannot grasp the attachment coming from seeing dirt as “holy”, that makes the Israelis force themselves on an area no one wants them in. You can’t just leave a land, come back 2000 years later, and expect it to be available for the taking. Jeebus, Israeli dudes, take a hint, why don’t ya?
I suggest we disarm their nukes, give them ample warning- in which to either make plans for departure or batten down the hatches, and cut off all military assistance and other funding. We arrange it so they can settle here or in Germany- at the German’s expense(their own version of tough shit).
We use this “good deed” as a negotiating tool to put a kibosh on the Iranian nuclear aspirations. We separate Iraq into homelands for it’s Kurds, Shi’ites, and Sunnis- with the Sunnis receiving a foreign aid stipend from the oil revenues of the other two. We give Pyongyang two weeks notice before sending in Sean Hannity strapped Slim Pickens-style to a massive nuke, vaporizing Kim Jong-il (and why can’t he be more like his sister Erica Jong-il?).
We’ll only be a superpower til China gets up and running completely- and calls in the massive debt they control, so we might as well use our time at the helm wisely, for once. At least we could give the world more of a fighting chance.
15 July 2006, on 2:05 pm
Lots of really perceptive points by all…
In particular, regarding…
RDZ’s: “We allow Israel to go nuclear while screaming and invading anyone else who might dare to think about it.”
“You go, guy!”
[Is it really possible to keep a sense of humor in all this shtick?..."Please don't hit me!"
OK...In my opinion, that's only one part of the hypocrisy of the World's Nuclear [Bush: 'Nucular'] ‘Equation’…the USA and Russia, in particular, completely avoid recognizing and discussing their [our] original, and longtime possession of somewhat astounding numbers of Nuclear and Chemical WMDs in the respective arsenals.
It’s another, what!…White Elephant in the ‘International Living Room’?
Oh!…that’s right; we’re the ASSUMED good guys, …who also wear the WHITE cowboy hats!…and of course: “Gawd is on OUR side!”
YIKES! …”Beam me up, Scotty?” [But, wait!...no Rapture, please!...or no Rupture either?]
“Blehdledledledledle…” [FX: lip flutter using index and middle finger...or tongue/lip flapping?]
…And perhaps, simultaneously, crossing one’s eyes!
15 July 2006, on 2:18 pm
RDZ, I don’t know that I agree with you when you say “I say that’s their tough shit and their responsibility to bear for the irresponsible actions of their fathers and grandfathers.” Sure, like you say they could move, but I fail to see how something done before you were born is your fault. That’s basically the xian argument for original sin; someone around before you were born was bad and now it’s all your fault. I’m not arguing that the people of Israel shouldn’t be seeking a peaceful solution with the Palestinians but am merely pointing out some of the ethical dilemnas involved in the situation. Personally, I empathize with the Palestinians in this debate and the desparation they feel which leads them to terrible actions.
15 July 2006, on 2:25 pm
Yeah, like an ass-kicking from Israel is going to get everyone to wake up and see the light. ‘Hezzbollah kidnapped some soldiers, so Israel blew up my family. Naturally, the ones I’m angriest with are Hezbollah’ Hopefully no more civilians will be murdered, both governments will be wiped out and rational people will take over thier nations, and I’ll grow magical wings and fly to Spain to party with European porn stars.
15 July 2006, on 2:33 pm
There is SO MUCH history to dig through to even begin to understand this whole mess.
From Wikipedia: Under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule, Jewish presence in the province dwindled due to mass expulsions. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire resulted in the large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land. (So Jews were first expelled from the land???) The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism’s most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517.
Then Jews started coming back gradually…and then the Nazi persecution and extermination of the Jews sent thousands and thousands of them fleeing back to the land of their ancestors…and now palestinians are saying “sorry, it’s our land now” and Israel gets outside help to overtake it…Palestinians are PISSED…and so on and so forth and continues.
Seems to be a case for King Solomon to decide? Or am I missing something? I am not a scholar in history and am trying to understand where this all actually stemmed from.
15 July 2006, on 3:01 pm
RDZ, instead of Canada supplying weapons and money, have it be an “enemy” of America, like Iran, or better yet, how about China? That way it really would be an analogy.
And as far as philosphy with xians, well, if they go that route I can always attempt to puncture a hole in their attributes of gawd. Such as: What kind of perfect, all good deity creates just to destroy? And so on and so forth. Trust me, I’ve thought about this for a good, long time. And since philosophy involves deep thinking, well, I may not be the deepest, but I’m still deeper than a xian.
15 July 2006, on 3:08 pm
Gosh, I thought by invading Iraq we were stabilizing the region and providing an example of democracy. Why can’t these people understand our examples?
15 July 2006, on 3:14 pm
Great rant re: Cherokeeland, RDZ.
Of course, I have heard the somewhat valid argument that nobody wanted them anywhere nearby — even in Germany (after all, the Germans were never dehumanized by America the way the Japanese were; there were plenty of German-Americans at the time; plus they looked like “us”) and they were just shuffled off to the desert as just another way to cast off the Jews.
15 July 2006, on 3:20 pm
Perhaps if instead of just kicking them out, we had created two states, on Israel, the other Palestine. Seems to me that’s originally what the Palestinians wanted.
Of course, peace would be detrimental to our strategic interests. We need an enemy and the destablized middle east is absolutely ripe with American created boogeymen.
15 July 2006, on 3:28 pm
[...] Things Go Apeshit in the Middle East [...]
15 July 2006, on 3:29 pm
Stardust says:
Seems to be a case for King Solomon to decide? Or am I missing something? I am not a scholar in history and am trying to understand where this all actually stemmed from.
Keep reading, Star. It’s a fucking mess. And yes, Jews were first expelled from the land a looong time ago. The Jewish diaspora and the Palestinian diaspora are both tragic. And I blame the fucking Bible, to tell you the truth. Nobody would be fighting over this stupid patch of dirt if that layer of holiness wasn’t added to the argument.
One needs to look no further than the history of the Temple Mount.
[PS: I love this line from the Wikipedia article: "September 28, 2000, visit to the Temple Mount is cited by some people as the event that precipitated the Second Intifada, although others, including Palestinian representatives,[1] dismiss this and instead feel that the catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000. ”
Bullshit. Whatever your politics on the issues, one must admit that people don’t riot in response to failed diplomatic discussions. They riot because someone does something provocative.]
15 July 2006, on 4:25 pm
“They riot because someone does something provocative.”
Wasn’t it the Likudnik, Sharon, who did the visiting? Maybe Jeebus will come back hand in hand with the Jewish Messiah and the Mahdi at some other spot, making the new spot holy for everyone and making people open their eyes to the fact that the old spot was a fucking desert!
I’m still pushing for Utah as the next Israel because Camper Van Beethoven said:
“And old Joe
Did and said as he would
Took all the shopping carts from the mall
And took them to Utah
Which was Zion“
and how can you doubt the boys from Santa Cruz?
15 July 2006, on 6:30 pm
I completely agree with your Lebanese (hehehe) friend, terrorists either need to be killed or they will kill you…. Wipe ‘em out…
15 July 2006, on 6:45 pm
Steven Says:
I completely agree with your Lebanese (hehehe) friend,
What does the “hehehe” part mean, Steven?
15 July 2006, on 7:30 pm
[...] Things Go Apeshit in the Middle East [...]
15 July 2006, on 8:18 pm
Perhaps he thinks your Lebanese friend is Corporal Klinger?
16 July 2006, on 1:50 am
Raindogzilla Says:
July 15th, 2006 at 8:18 pm e
Perhaps he thinks your Lebanese friend is Corporal Klinger?
ROFLMAO!!!
16 July 2006, on 11:56 am
Just wanted to post an update, the Lebanese are retalliating: http://tinyurl.com/qbs8s. I’m surprised the article referred to them as “guerillas” instead of “terrorists,” what with their usual habit of shading the story to favor Israel.
16 July 2006, on 12:25 pm
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said there would be “far-reaching consequences” for the Haifa attack.
This is how wars begin (unless you just invade and conquer someone, like we did). A smaller event (a kidnapped soldier in this case, the killing of Archduke Ferdinand which led to the greatest conflagration the world had yet seen), reprisals from one side, more reprisals from the other said. Reprisals, reprisals, reprisals. I have always wondered what would happen if one side just said “No reprisals.” Just refused to launch a counter-attack. Sure, maybe the other side would attack even harder, but as Gandhi proved, when the other side is simply attacking you for no apparent reason, because you are putting up no resistance, you can quickly garner the sympathy of the world. The Arab groups like Hezbollah haven’t learned this subtle trick. Unfortunately, they are in thrall to a battle religion that encourages violence against the infidel from it’s holy book’s very first pages.
And didn’t Jesus has this expression nobody seems to remember… Something about turning the other cheek? Maybe he was onto what Gandhi would prove a couple of millennia later.
16 July 2006, on 1:13 pm
See, Sean, the problem is that them Jews and Muslims ain’t got no Jeebus to tell ‘em to turn their other cheek, which is why we need to blast ‘em with our Blessed Depleted Uranium rounds for Jeebus. Cain’t turn neither cheek if you ain’t got no head!
16 July 2006, on 1:21 pm
But, RDZ, the Muzlims say Jeeebus was a prophet.
16 July 2006, on 2:40 pm
Jeebus weren’t no prophet. Gawd is his pappy. That makes him more thana prophet. Muhamid ain’t got no similar kinfolk what’n he can claim. Same with whoever it is them Jewish felllers believes in.
16 July 2006, on 4:28 pm
The telleee-vangee-lists say Jeebus is a profit, too!
16 July 2006, on 4:47 pm
Yeah, but some of them thar t.v. shows is run by Jewish queers. Can’t believe what their saying. Look at that “Bill and Grace” show. It has some New York gays and Jews living together. Ain’t right.
16 July 2006, on 8:01 pm
Newt Gingrich says it’s world war 3.
http://tinyurl.com/pn6d2
Notice how he says to learn the language of calling it what it is. Thereby diminishing the effectiveness of legitimate political campaigning. Terrify the people into voting for more of the same out of fear that it will get worse if they don’t.
16 July 2006, on 9:12 pm
Use starker language, he says. Scare the fuck out of people more, just before the November election. Yup. That’s their plan. The current situtation is nothing like the two world wars and it is highly irresponsible to say that it is. And some Rethuglicans want Gingrich as their presidential candidate for ‘08??
17 July 2006, on 12:40 am
Why not run Tom “The Hammer” DeLay? Then he could pardon himself.
17 July 2006, on 8:47 am
“I say that’s their tough shit and their responsibility to bear for the irresponsible actions of their fathers and grandfathers. No, they didn’t ask to be born there but they could just, you know, move. I just cannot grasp the attachment coming from seeing dirt as “holy”, that makes the Americans force themselves on an area no one wants them in. You can’t just leave a land, come back 2000 years later, and expect it to be available for the taking. Jeebus, Israeli dudes, take a hint, why don’t ya?”
I sincerely hope this paragraph was written in jest. Unless your brain has been taken over by a fundie fuckwit there is no excuse for writing something this fucking stupid.
17 July 2006, on 9:21 am
“I sincerely hope this paragraph was written in jest. Unless your brain has been taken over by a fundie fuckwit there is no excuse for writing something this fucking stupid.”
Actually, the only thing I’d change about that paragraph there is to replace “Americans” with “Israelis”. But that was essentially a typing mistake. I stand by the content. By “irresponsible actions” I mean settling and founding the nation of Israel. Sorry, no fundie fuckwit here unless it’s one of the “only an anti-semite dares criticize Israel” variety and that would make it you, not me.
Incidentally, the xian “fundie fuckwits” are actually in line behind a vigorous Israel- as part of that whole bring on the rapture campaign. The ’slamic “fundie fuckwits” seem to want to kill all the Israelis in order to wipe Israel out of existence. The Likudnik “fundie fuckwits” are the ones ready to go all out war with Syria and Iran. I’d suggest you meant a Nazi “fundie fuckwit” except they’d be sympatico with their ’slamic brethren. As I am none of those, I’ve run out of “fundie fuckwits” that you could have possibly meant to associate me with.
You, however, seem to fall in the Likudnik Israeli “fundie fuckwit” category. Pot calls newfallen snow, black, news at 11:00. Further, if you’d read my previous comments, you’d know that, despite the logistical and financial problems involved with such an endeavor, I would fully support moving Israel elsewhere- preferrably out of the region but a chunk of the Sudan might work(Janjaweed meets IDF and, poof, no more Janjaweed).
Personally, I see nothing in my writing offensive enough to merit such a venomous, irrational assault. Hence the turning of “fundie fuckwit” on you.
17 July 2006, on 9:26 am
Lya Kahlo Says:
“I say that’s their tough shit and their responsibility to bear for the irresponsible actions of their fathers and grandfathers. No, they didn’t ask to be born there but they could just, you know, move. I just cannot grasp the attachment coming from seeing dirt as “holy”, that makes the Americans force themselves on an area no one wants them in. You can’t just leave a land, come back 2000 years later, and expect it to be available for the taking. Jeebus, Israeli dudes, take a hint, why don’t ya?”
I sincerely hope this paragraph was written in jest. Unless your brain has been taken over by a fundie fuckwit there is no excuse for writing something this fucking stupid.
Back up your comments with a cogent argument rather than insulting one of the most intelligent contributors to this board.
I actually agree with Raindog. I am tired of the sanctimony about Israel. They do not hold any right to that land whatsoever. To say they do is to embrace the biblical equivalent of manifest destiny. It’s bullshit. They are a traumatized people that have turned around and traumatized a whole other people as a solution. The Palestinian diaspora is no less tragic than the Jewish one, but we are trained not to view it that way. Explain to me why Israel gets to act like Nazis just because they were oppressed by Nazis. What they are doing now in Lebanon is way over the top. The way Israel responds to everything. “You kill one of ours, we kill 100 of yours.” I’m frankly sick of it and I would like to hear a justification for why they can move into someone else’s land and spend 60 years killing people and shoving them out of their homes because their bibble tells them it’s okay. I have many Palestinian friends whose families have suffered and died under this apartheid and yet we are supposed to look the other way because for Jews bigotry and oppression of the “other” is different because it happened to them?
Read this article and do some work on your knee-jerkism about Israel, Lya. I for one am sick of listening to it.
17 July 2006, on 9:30 am
PS: Raindog was one of the few people who actually asked where you had gone when you disappeared in your last hissy fit, Lya. What kind of respect do you show him by writing what you did?
Again, you said:
I sincerely hope this paragraph was written in jest. Unless your brain has been taken over by a fundie fuckwit there is no excuse for writing something this fucking stupid.
Has anybody here ever showed you that level of disrespect, little girl?
Fuck you, Lya.
17 July 2006, on 9:48 am
[...] Lya’s latest spew, against Raindogzilla, who is the most valuable, intelligent and prolific blogger that has come on this site in a long time, is to me unforgivable. In my mind, considering the fact that when Lya last left it was because she was angry that nobody told her we were slaving over a redesign (hint to Lya: I did the work, not you — and it’s not your fucking place to get angry over whether we “clued” you in or not), she should have come back here with some respect for those that have been working hard on this site. GifS has grown enormously in intelligent discussion since Lya left and this is the way she thinks she will win her way back into the fold? [...]
17 July 2006, on 10:10 am
“Actually, the only thing I’d change about that paragraph there is to replace “Americans” with “Israelis”. But that was essentially a typing mistake. I stand by the content. By “irresponsible actions” I mean settling and founding the nation of Israel. Sorry, no fundie fuckwit here unless it’s one of the “only an anti-semite dares criticize Israel” variety and that would make it you, not me.”
Nah. I know full well that not all those who speak out against Israel are anti-semites ( as that would include me too).
“Incidentally, the xian “fundie fuckwits” are actually in line behind a vigorous Israel- as part of that whole bring on the rapture campaign.”
Clearly. The intent was to point out to remarkably silliness in the original paragraph as being akin to the fundy fuckwit. Not a comment on what they support.
“You, however, seem to fall in the Likudnik Israeli “fundie fuckwit” category.”
How, exactly? Did I make clear my position or did I simply criticize a faulty paragraph?
~~
What content are you standing by exactly? The calls to uproot people born someplace – you know EXACTLY, as Israel is critized for doing to the Palestinians? The calls to move from the place you were born because several decades ago your ancestors weren’t? Clearly, I’m confused.
How long must a people live someplace before it’s considered their own? I’m glad you pointed out that the word Israeli could be interchanged with Americans; saved me the trouble.
~~
At any rate – at the time I didn’t realize who I was responding too. Apologies – a dumb mistake on my end.
17 July 2006, on 11:06 am
I’m saying regardless of the trouble it would cause to people who themselves may have had nothing to do with creating the problem- i.e, the creation of that state, regardless of whether it was seen as appeasing ’slamic fundies, the obvious solution for all involved is to either abandon or relocate Israel. It’s a matter of numbers. You have a nation surrounded by legions who don’t want it there and you can’t get rid of that multitude- whereas the Israelis have the wherewithal to actually pack up and relocate.
The establishment of the State was a mistake, in retrospect, as the claims to the land were dubious if not flat out spurious and the world, at large was operating under a justifiable guilt trip- no compos mentis, dig? We’ve seen how maps drawn up by the geographically uninvolved- Iraq, Kuwait- work out on the ground, amongst the inhabitants.
Further, stripped of any “holy” cachet, a desert by any other name, is still a desert.
17 July 2006, on 2:08 pm
May I offer my HUGE kudos to Raindog and Sean on their Israeli comments? In my opinion, you guys ‘nailed’ the exact ideas I’ve held for a lo-o-o-ong time!
It’s been commented elswhere that, if any land were to be allowed to the Jews in connection with the ‘World’s guilt’, following the Nazi Holocaust, it should [more appropriately?] have been somewhere in Germany! Your comments regarding the delusional Bibble claims are ‘Right On!’.
It’s obvious to me, that this country [USA] backs [with 'mucho doleros' for weapons, etc.] Israel, primarily, BECAUSE of the Judeo/Xtian Bibble crap about Gawd doleing out that piece of desert dirt to His ‘chosen’ people. [My, what favoritism?...boy, does that bring up shtick!]
In short; …youse guys expressed the previously unspoken, but extremely important, ‘TRUTH’ on this matter!
Of course,…It’s only my opinion…
“But,…I’m ALWAYS right!…dammit!…aren’t I?” [as he skulks away...]
17 July 2006, on 7:49 pm
To rejoin the original debate, I do find a dilemna with the idea of uprooting a group of people based on recent ancestral actions, but at times those feelings can get strained by the actions of the people there today. Case in point: the current “conflict” Israel is having with both its Palestinian population and Lebannon. To paraphrase a previous comment I had made, the majority of Israel’s current population did not create the original cause for the conflict, but to amend it somewhat, they sure as hell are benefitting from it as well as perpetrating a continued crime against the Palestinians and the Lebannese now as well. I guess my reformed opinion is that the people of Israel have, either by their complicity or at least by turning a blind eye to the actions committed in their names, ethically voided any claim to a right to continue living their, although I have no idea what the hell the solution to that would be.
17 July 2006, on 8:36 pm
The population of Israel is only about 8 million people.
12 million Mexicans left their homes and walked to the US with nothing but a fukin dream. Solution found, grow up. I won’t even go into the military cost (paid for by US) the human lives on hold while at war (for life in Israel) And when the Isaraelis get here We go to the holy shit land and buldoze it. To make way for the US tactical practise and gunnery range.
17 July 2006, on 8:54 pm
Solution found, grow up.
Umm, okay. Not sure why I deserve the “grow up” comment, but that’s cool. I was just trying to explore the complexity of the situation but I guess I should’ve recognized it as being black and white.
17 July 2006, on 9:11 pm
Grow Up to the people at war Sorry I was not specific. It was intended as a bit tongue in cheek. But then again.
17 July 2006, on 9:18 pm
Ok, sorry if I took it the wrong way. I guess with all of the tension as a result of this topic I was a little on edge.
17 July 2006, on 9:33 pm
No problem King. If I get mean You will know it. I sometimes type stream of conscious and don’t review what it says. Sarcasm and halfwitted puns don’t always translate through this media.
17 July 2006, on 9:35 pm
Hehehe.
17 July 2006, on 9:42 pm
King you sound like you need cheering up ? go here.
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2006/7/10dziura.html
17 July 2006, on 10:21 pm
Thanks bro. Cool site.
18 July 2006, on 8:25 am
I find it quite amusing that the most hysterical poster here, Sean, took such great offense to Lya’s reply. However intelligent RDZ supposedly is, his comments are infantile garbage. High-pitched rhetoric along the lines of ‘Let’s dissolve Israel,’ is pointless. Israel is a sovereign state, and it is going nowhere. To start suggesting that they need to leave now is just retarded. This is their homeland now – most of these people were born here. You have not ‘nailed’ the problem, you have just applied your usual hysteria to yet another issue. For people who pride themselves on their critical thinking, perhaps you should actually put into practise.
Sure, they may have had no legitimate claim to the land to begin with, but that was over 60 years ago. And contrary to Matt’s laughable notions, the Palestinians have not been waiting for a two-state solution all along. Also, something you seemed to have not considered: to demand Israel’s dissolution is to give your support to an even worse kind of religious fundamentalism.
Oh, and Sean, using Nazi rhetoric isn’t appropriate or accurate. It’s quite symptomatic of your approach to, well, everything.
18 July 2006, on 9:08 am
Mr. Bbb, I object to your use of the phrase “high-pitched” to describe my rhetoric. My rhetoric has been called both the “Johnny Cash of Rhetoric” and the “Barry White of Rhetoric”, which, as you see, pretty much rules out “high” pitched.
Sometimes the objective solution to a problem does, in fact, coincide with the goals of one side or another. That’s not appeasement to fundamentalism but an acknowledgement that they are right for the wrong reasons. As far as Israel goes, it’s illegitimate inception certainly is an issue, even 60 years on because that illegitimacy is the crux of the conflict escalating even as we speak.
All the best intentions, all the best statesmen, all the best negotiators, none of it has worked to fix the problem here. Even sending in US troops- assuming we weren’t already spread too thin militarily, would do more harm than good. So, what’s left? Do we sit tight and wait for it to spiral out of control, for Israel to loose a nuke? Do we invade Iran or Syria? Oh, wait, same problem, not enough troops for that- though by this president’s logic, perhaps we’ll invade Morocco.
Because of our thick as thieves relationship with Israel, sending Condi Rice is worthless. “Dissolving”- as you call it- Israel would, flat out, fix the problem. For the Israeli citizens upset about leaving their homeland, sometimes you’ve got to take one for the team. In this case, humanity is the “team”.
18 July 2006, on 10:13 am
Bbb:
Oh, and Sean, using Nazi rhetoric isn’t appropriate or accurate. It’s quite symptomatic of your approach to, well, everything
Prove it. Give me all the examples of Nazi rhetoric that I have resorted to. Actually, I haven’t resorted to any Nazi rhetoric, as then I would be speaking like a Nazi. What I was pointing out is an actual phenomenon. Abused individuals most often grow up to abuse others. This same thing can happen with societies, and has repeatedly done so in history.
I find it quite amusing that the most hysterical poster here, Sean, took such great offense to Lya’s reply
Show me where my writing on this thread was “hysterical,” before or after Lya’s venemous response to RDZ. Don’t just say it, copy it back and tell us with your expert opinion as to why it is “hysterical.”
I was angry, but I was cogent. I was angry specifically at Lya because every time the issue of Israel has come up she has been absolutist in her defense of that nation. It seems to do no wrong. I, Raindog, ChuckA, Jimmer, King Retard, along with a growing number of people in the EU and most of the West, are beginning to say “Wait up. Why does this country get a free pass to do whatever it wants, always?” They have been slaughtering and taking land for so long now that they fail to see that they have become what they once despised.
Ever known a Palestinian who has to live with the, yes, Nazi-like reality of the checkpoints? Ever known a Palestinian-American who has gone back there for a visit? Did you read the incredibly sad story of the family of eight Lebanese Canadians who were home on vacation and got blown to pieces the other day?
Ever been around an Israeli, or an American Jew, who talks about Arabs is if they aren’t human? I was at a media event where a bunch of Jewish activists hijacked the discussion to rail against the “animals” they were at war with. This was at the beginning of the second intifada. They completely derailed the event to suit their agenda. A young man in the audience spoke up and said “I am just learning about this conflict, and I want to know more. But when I go into the bookstore, the only books I can find are from the Jewish perspective.” A Jewish man across the room said: “That’s because Arabs don’t know how to read.”
The very culture that saved much of our literary past, that invented much of the math we use today, reduced to illiterate camel jockeys by this bigot. How Nazi-like, eh?
Or the Israeli I went to lunch with in L.A. We sat down at a table and he noticed a group of what may have been Egyptians or Iranians — a family, with kids in tow — seated nearby. He asked the waiter to move us because he does not eat with “animals.”
Anyway, still looking for the parts in this thread where I was hysterical and not presenting a cogent argument. Musta been when I said “Fuck you, Lya” in response to her calm, level-headed debating point.
18 July 2006, on 10:33 am
Way to go, bbb, you just Godwined yourself.
18 July 2006, on 11:25 am
I am really sick to death of all this middle east fighting by ALL sides over there, (and arguing amongst ourselves), but what do you all think about the many, many Palestinian muslims of the 50+ mosques around Chicagoland and other cities around the country that are presently teaching their children to hate the infidel (meaning all of the west) and who are promoting propaganda in those mosques that Islam will one day “win” America for Allah? (Bridgeview…a suburb of Chicago is the headquarters for Palestinian muslims in the U.S. and I used to live in the adjacent community of Burbank for several years.) And my friend who lives in nearby Chicago Ridge has had repeated damages to her property by these palestinian muslims who live in apartment buildings across the street from her and they seem to have no respect for other people’s property. They are mean, their kids are really aggressive and what were once beautiful apartment buildings are now wrecks. They take the screens off windows and let the draperies flap in the breeze, put upholstered furniture on the patios and let the weather have its way with it. They throw garbage on the grass, store bicycles on roof overhangs. And Chicago Ridge is a nice middle class suburb for the most part (for now)and they are taking it over like they did Bridgeview and they have money so poverty is no excuse. Those apartments go for $1,000 or more a month. The houses they buy are around $260,000 to $300,000. My friend is being forced to sell her house to get away to a more peaceful area. And she was there FIRST. In Bridgeview they even have PUBLIC sirens that blare and tells them when it is time for prayers. I worked for a printing company two blocks away from their main mosque and have heard this. Bridgeview has become a “Little Palestine”. If this is an example of how they are overseas, I have little sympathy for them. (We never see any sort of this crap and arrogance going on in the predominantly jewish middle-class suburb of Skokie, for example.)
I know this subject is a touchy one, and I am risk of being strongly “rebutted” but those of us (non-jews)in Chicagoland who see this population growing day by day and see these fundamentalist mosques going up everywhere, are getting really nervous the same as we atheists here are worried about xian fundies infiltrating our government. I just hope one day we don’t wake up and find ourselves with a very serious internal problem.
18 July 2006, on 1:03 pm
Question, Star, how exactly do you know that all of those mosques in your area are fundamentalist ones acting as madrases(schooling the children)? I’ve been to mosques in NYC, here in Cin’ti, and in the Arab capital of the US, Dearborn, Michigan and found each of them no more fundie than the local synagogue or methodist church. I mean if it’s different there in Chicagoland, then it’s different but do you see “mosque” and assume “fundie” or is your knowledge deeper than that? Just askin’.
18 July 2006, on 1:12 pm
RDZ – I am referring to fundamentalist palestinian muslim mosques and how they came to be “fundamentalist” mosques via infiltration by muslim extremists. I understand there is a difference between people who just want to practice their faith in peace and fundamentalist extremists on a mission.
Here is a link
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/251
18 July 2006, on 4:41 pm
I guess what I’m wondering Star is how does the “there goes the neighborhood” argument affect what’s going on in Israel/Palestine? I realize you or your friend don’t find them to be the most pleasant of neighbors, but it sounds like you’re unintentionally falling into the trap of categorizing your local Palestinian population as less civilized or less deserving of their rights. I hope I’m wrong.
18 July 2006, on 5:14 pm
I guess what I’m wondering Star is how does the “there goes the neighborhood” argument affect what’s going on in Israel/Palestine
KR – First of all, I must make clear that I am not for bombing the shit out of anyone and do not think that is a solution to the ongoing problems. It has never worked, never will…except to keep both sides in a pile of rubble.
I am not a prejudice person. I realize that not all muslims are militant. However, what I am saying is that militant muslim extremists have infiltrated these mosques and the messages they are telling people is that one day they will win America for Islam. There is a ton of information in the link I provided. How do we know this information is accurate? First hand reports and verification from undercover inside sources who speak Arabic.
Money was found to be supporting al quaida terrorists coming from the Bridgeview mosques. Charities tied to terrorist organizations were closed down, but now there is suspicion that they are still sending money to the middle east and not only for palestinian defense, but for the cause of Islam in general.
The big problem for us all to be concerned about is how outside militant muslim groups are taking advantage of this conflict and are joining in to aid the Palestinians and those groups are interested in much more than Palestinians getting their land back.
More links:
Islamic Jihad training in America
18 July 2006, on 5:55 pm
Muslims who are sick of muslim extremists:
Free Muslims Coalition
excerpt:The Coalition strongly urges Muslims and Arabs to refrain from demonizing Jews and stop blaming Jews for all of the world’s problems. The Coalition also urges Israelis to stop demonizing Arabs and Muslims who peacefully advocate for the rights of Palestinians.
Solving the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict
Excerpt:And while the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not the cause of terrorism, solving this conflict may transform the political landscape of the entire Middle East and expose the various agendas of numerous violent groups who leach on this conflict to win the hearts and minds of emotional and unsuspecting people.
18 July 2006, on 6:04 pm
There’s a Palestinian family living in my folks’ neighborhood and the rest of the neighbors seem to avoid them like the plague. Yes, the house looks a little more rundown than the others but the people are friendly and it houses an entire extended family. They filled in the pool to build an addition in the backyard and the neighbors just scratched their heads and mumbled “whacky arabs” under their breath. It just disheartens me that this family has been there for at least ten years and no one has made friends with them. They’re very Americanized, no burqas, a statue of the Virgin Mary in the landscaping, and every time I’ve stopped by to chat, they were real friendly. I suppose I shouldn’t be so surprised. When I was a kid, a black family, gasp, had moved in and pretty much found the going the same. Nothing overt, racism hasn’t disappeared it’s just gone sotto voce, but I imagine, for both families, it’s a bit like being invisible. I just wonder, Star(and I am by no means telling this story for your benefit or to criticize you) whether those aggressive kids your friend tells you of are militant Muslims or, as I have seen around here, typical- if brown-skinned, suburbanite afficionados of gangsta rap culture? You know the ones, the white kids who think they’re Ice Cube or Lil John?
18 July 2006, on 6:31 pm
I just wonder, Star(and I am by no means telling this story for your benefit or to criticize you) whether those aggressive kids your friend tells you of are militant Muslims or, as I have seen around here, typical- if brown-skinned, suburbanite afficionados of gangsta rap culture?
We also had Palestinian muslim neighbors next door for about 8 months and they were nice enough, and a lot of muslims work for the company I do and though they are very quiet, they are very polite and basically friendly. No one in my neighborhood treated them bad or ignored them. They suddenly up and moved though, which was a bit of a surprise. They were just gone one day and now we have this white family I can’t stand and wish the quiet muslim family had stayed. Like I said, I am not basing this on prejudice against a race of people. Like I am suspicious of fanatical fundie xians, I am also suspicious of fundie muslim extremists. Many muslims are scattered all over the suburbs of Chicago and those are the ones who don’t want to live by their extremist bretheren either. However, it is the ones who keep to themselves in these neighborhoods like Bridgeview and build fundie mosques and send money in support of terrorist organizations who are worrisome.
Now, as for the muslims who inhabit the apartments by my friend near the Bridgeview mosque: This is not just gang-banger kids. The adults are like that too in this one particular area. I have been there and they stare at talk in Arabic very loudly and point and laugh at the white people across the street. They block you in your driveway and refuse to move their cars so you can’t get out and have to wait till they decide to move. Obnoxious stuff like that. On 9-11 the ADULTS across from my friend were dancing around waving Palestinian flags cheering in Arabic. It was a BOLD defiant display at a time when Americans were really pissed off. Then there were other muslims in other communities waving the American flags in fear like “look…I am with America!”
So, I know that all muslims are not extremists, but there are A LOT of muslim extremists that even peace-loving muslims are nervous having here. They came here to get away from that shit in the middle east and it’s following them here.
18 July 2006, on 7:00 pm
Star said:
The big problem for us all to be concerned about is how outside militant muslim groups are taking advantage of this conflict and are joining in to aid the Palestinians and those groups are interested in much more than Palestinians getting their land back.
There’s a point I can wholeheartedly agree with.
18 July 2006, on 7:03 pm
War sucks…..
Goes back to a Stephen Hawking question…”Is there any hope for humanity?”
18 July 2006, on 9:33 pm
I still think there is, Star, but it’s hard to keep my spirits up at times like these.
“War sucks,” indeed…
20 July 2006, on 2:32 am
Check this out. Not so much for the video, but the massive discussion thread underneath it.
20 July 2006, on 7:20 am
“Incredibly powerful Israeli lobby? Nah. Anti-Semite!”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_go_co/us_mideast
“There’s a lot (of lawmakers) that don’t feel it’s right … but vote yes, and get it the heck out of here,” Rahall said.
Rep. Darrell Issa (news, bio, voting record), R-Calif., who co-sponsored the alternative resolution and also is of Lebanese descent, agreed. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobby “throws in language that AIPAC wants. That isn’t always the best thing for this body to endorse,” Issa said.
Nevertheless, Rahall and Issa said they were considering voting in favor of the resolution. “I want to show support for Israel’s right to defend itself,” Issa said.
Another lawmaker with Lebanese roots, Rep. Charles Boustany Jr., R-La., said he too planned to vote in favor of the resolution despite holding deep reservations on its language regarding Lebanon. “I think it’s a good resolution. But I think it’s incomplete,” he said.
The lack of momentum for alternative proposals frustrated pro-Arab groups.
“This is the usual problem with any resolution that talks about Israel — there are a lot of closet naysayers up there (in Congress), but they don’t want to be a target of the lobby” of Israel, said Eugene H. Bird, president of the Council for the National Interest, a group that harshly condemns Israel’s military campaign.
20 July 2006, on 3:09 pm
Check this out. Little Israeli girls writing things like “From Israel and Daniele” on rockets that will be fired into Lebanon.
22 July 2006, on 12:15 am
Little Israeli girls writing things like “From Israel and Daniele” on rockets that will be fired into Lebanon.
This is sick. It just goes to show how children on both sides are being indoctrinated to perpetuate hatred and violence in the middle east. This makes me even more cynical about there ever being even a glimmer of hope for peace in that region of the world.