New topic category: Mythology
25 June 2006 by Sean
Since we atheists actually consider modern Islam, Christianity, Judaism, et al, simply more mythology, I thought it would be nice to have a topic category for this. I started adding items to the new category, but we have written so much of late that I was only able to go back a month or so before I got exhausted. Bloggers: feel free to go to your old posts and add this topic.
Note that I made a point of including stories from modern religions along with classic myth. There is no difference. The more we can impress this upon people, the better. My take on this category is that it should be used whenever talking about stories, parables, etc. “Myths to live by”, as Joseph Campbell would say. Or, in contrast, myths to despise (hello, Abraham).
I also love the fact that atheists like Eve, Stardust, Marcus, etc., are into mythology as a beautiful human creation. When you stop seeing it literally, and instead use it as a framework for studying the human animal (as the Greeks did), mythology becomes truly wonderful.
25 June 2006, on 8:29 pm
Re: “When you stop seeing it literally, and instead use it as a framework for studying the human animal (as the Greeks did), mythology becomes truly wonderful.”
Of course, mythology has purpose, and I don’t think that it was meant to be taken literally. It provided a peek into the human condition. Perhaps some of the stories were ways of expressing actual events but in fantasy form? A bit like the more modern english nursery rhyme where the characters in the rhymes were meant to represent and make comment on, the political/cultural figures of the day.
25 June 2006, on 8:45 pm
God is real and God is love! He is true. I have received Him in Communion. He has answered my prayers. He has forgiven my sins in Confession.
Perhaps you have not read of the Apparitions in Fatima or Lourdes or Guadalupe. All of them attest to God! Read about Eucharistic miracles: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
I just wanted to post this to let you know there is a God – the one that created you and died for you on a Cross.
Have a great day!
25 June 2006, on 10:01 pm
Thanks for driving by, “M!’ Have a great day yourself! And while you are at it, can you tell me who this poor young lady died for!?
25 June 2006, on 10:10 pm
beepbeepitsme Says:
A bit like the more modern english nursery rhyme where the characters in the rhymes were meant to represent and make comment on, the political/cultural figures of the day.
Absolutely, beepbeep. For those interested in that very subject, there is a great book called The Annotated Mother Goose. I think it’s out of print, but you can still get your hands on a copy.
I also think that modern comic books do a great job at exploring the human condition. I would go so far as to say they are the closest thing we have these days to an ongoing heroic mythology. There’s a reason why Hollywood has been turning to them again and again of late.
25 June 2006, on 10:41 pm
I just wanted to post this to let you know there is a God – the one that created you and died for you on a Cross.
Just like fanatical muslims, xians can never mention gawd without saying something about DYING. And don’t get me started on apparitions and hallucinations!
25 June 2006, on 11:05 pm
An odd fellow yesterday says to me, he says “Ye cannae be an aetheist acausen ye cannae pruve a negatife.” I says to him, I says, “Ye be the one essayin to myke fleshe a mythe, good sir, ye be the one alack for a prufe!”. Last time I go to that kilt store.
25 June 2006, on 11:18 pm
Sean,
Hello and I guess I should say have a good night now! It’s rather late where I’m at.
I just wanted to say that the woman who refused the blood transfusion did a very stupid act. Hospitals are here to care for us and help us improve our health. I don’t like the religious view of Jehovah’s witnesses. They are not Christian in my opinion, and this ridiculous action only brings same to real Christians. I pray that people who believe such falsehoods return to the Catholic Church.
Stardust,
Death is a very important topic – we will all be there one day. You will die and so will I. But do you really believe that for the rest of eternity you will be no more? No more thoughts or feelings? I certainly don’t because I know that I will go to Judgment. I pray that through the mercy of my God I may rejoice in peace forever.
25 June 2006, on 11:19 pm
Sorry for the typo. As I said, I’m tired. I meant to say that her action brings “shame” not “same”.
25 June 2006, on 11:25 pm
Hey, new Theist “M”: Read our comments policy before you spout any more shite like this:
“But do you really believe that for the rest of eternity you will be no more? No more thoughts or feelings? I certainly don’t because I know that I will go to Judgment.”
We’re open to conversation, but proslytize once more and you will be banned. Capice?
25 June 2006, on 11:30 pm
M Says:
Sorry for the typo. As I said, I’m tired. I meant to say that her action brings “shame” not “same”.
WTF are talking about? And is the word you are searching for “sham”?
25 June 2006, on 11:38 pm
Sean, you were wondering where all the xians have gone? Guess we can’t blame it on the rapture! (unless M is not a “True Xian.” )
“But do you really believe that for the rest of eternity you will be no more? No more thoughts or feelings?
These questions almost make me laugh anymore because they are asked by xians so often. It’s sooooo redundant. Xians are so death obsessed and afraid of a natural part of the life cycle. We can’t wish something to be true that cannot be and xians, muslims, and others who believe in an afterlife cannot accept that and be dignified about it.
25 June 2006, on 11:47 pm
Thanks for pointing out the comment policy. I read it and understand
25 June 2006, on 11:54 pm
According to M’s bio on his blog, he is “discerning a vocation to the priesthood and hopes to begin his studies in the fall of 2007.”
Guess he was practicing on us?
26 June 2006, on 12:11 am
My little brother has an idea for a movie trilogy involving the pantheons of various mythlogies. Pretty cool plot too.
I always say that if I ever make it, and I’m damn well trying, I’ll help him develop and sell it.
He says he wants Keanu Reeves to play Ares.
26 June 2006, on 12:26 am
I find mythology to be fascinating and it tells us a lot about a culture.
“Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people’s myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts — but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message.”
“…Mythology is often thought of as “other peoples” religions…Religion can be defined as mis-interpreted mythology”
Joseph Campbell
26 June 2006, on 1:27 am
M says:
God is real and God is love! He is true. I have received Him in Communion. He has answered my prayers. He has forgiven my sins in Confession.
Like George Carlin I believe in the sun. The sun sustains me and is true, rising every morning and setting every night. I have communion with the sun every day, directly from the rays or from the nutrients that it so lovingly provides. But like George Carlin I don’t pray to the sun I pray to Joe Pesci and like you, 50% of my prayers are answered.
When I no longer exist my atoms will mix with yours and the only thing that we will be remembered for will be the critical thinking and the truth that we communicated to our family, friends and the rest of the living. The unreasoning that constitutes your faith, in the future, will be remembered as the mythology of the past.
26 June 2006, on 2:19 am
I find myths interesting too, like the myth about the \”soup\” that once covered the whole earth, and from where life supposedly came. Unlike Biblical texts, however, which have some archaeolgical corroboration, the mysterious \”soup\” never left behind any traces…
26 June 2006, on 3:36 am
Tony D says: “But like George Carlin I don’t pray to the sun I pray to Joe Pesci and like you, 50% of my prayers are answered.”
50%?! When I was a fundie I prayed all the time because all the kids at school made fun of me and I had no friends or confidence and none of my prayers were ever answered.
I didn’t find any friends or confidence until AFTER I realized it was all a fantasy.
26 June 2006, on 4:24 am
I have always thought the Carlin joke meant to say that, in a rationalist’s well-spent life, at any given time, the glass is half full. 50/50.
26 June 2006, on 4:25 am
Tony D says:
When I no longer exist my atoms will mix with yours and the only thing that we will be remembered for will be the critical thinking and the truth that we communicated to our family, friends and the rest of the living. The unreasoning that constitutes your faith, in the future, will be remembered as the mythology of the past.
Can I get a “ramen?”
26 June 2006, on 7:44 am
To M:
I implore you to read “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins, quick smart. It is far shorter than the Bible, but it has something going for it that the Bible never did: evidence. Judging from your website, you believe in evolution, (which is thankful and a bit of a relief, really, as that shows maturity and a refusal to believe in obvious myths. Well, some anyway) but then go on to say that it was guided by God. I have a big fat problem with this, though: if God is so “great”, then he wouldn’t have needed to guide evolution. (if he did, it means either that he had to BREAK the laws of physics he set up as he wasn’t subtle enough to create a universe that could eventually produce intelligent life, OR he could produce a universe where evolution can happen but not as he wanted, as it kept veering off course, requiring him to make subtle adjustments to get it back on track) God should have just been able to hit the “Play” button on the universe, knowing everything that was ever going to happen. He could have played out a billion trillion permutations of the universe in his head (or his equivalent of one) and just chosen one where humans would evolve. (as God is outside of the universe, seemingly random events are to him completely determined BY him, so he knew that all the right mutations and all the right ecological conditions would line up nicely to eventually produce us. It also means that free will is necessarily an illusion. I wiggled my fingers just then, of my own “free will”. God knew I would do that, because he made the unverse in such a way that I destined to, otherwise he wouldn’t be omnipotent)
Anyway, where was I? There’s this thing called The Law of Big Numbers, whch means basically that if you have a large enough population of agents doing the same thing, at least some of them are likely to be met with success. If you say that your prayers are answered, it may well SEEM TO YOU that divine intervention is prducing those results, but there are a much larger number of people for whom prayers haven’t been answered. Of course, humans have a propensity to see the hits and ignore the misses, and this adds to the effect. Finally, if what you pray for is likely to happen anyway, then prayer probably has nothing to do with it. Joe Pesci will answer your prayers just as surely as God. Evolution and statistics conspire against us to see things that aren’t actually there. In a sense , I do believe in God. But that God doesn’t answer prayers, heal the sick or grant us entry into Heaven. The God I believe in lives inside our minds. We invented him.
26 June 2006, on 9:02 am
Ramen, brothers Sean and Tony D!
26 June 2006, on 10:22 am
M says:
Perhaps you have not read of the Apparitions in Fatima or Lourdes or Guadalupe. All of them attest to God! Read about Eucharistic miracles
Actually, my favorite miracle was from the South Park episode in which a statue of the Virgin Mary was bleeding from the ass. Church leaders were all pronouncing it a miracle until the pope came to examine it, and declared it was NOT a miracle because the statue was actually bleeding from the vagina, not the ass. According to the pope, bleeding from the vagina was not a miracle.
Whenever anyone gets too “miracly” on me, I love to replay that episode to laugh and let off a little steam. I believe the main point being made in that particular episode was to rely more on self-discipline and the support of friends, rather that wasting time waiting for a miracle. Survivor bias explains most miracles anyway.
26 June 2006, on 10:41 am
I think that JC (Joseph Campbell, not Jesucristo) believed that the problem with a lot of religious traditions was that many within these traditions didn’t really get poetry or metaphor, and that they actually took everything they read as literal prose. One example he gave was that this would be like going into a restaurant and seeing beefsteak on the menu, then starting to eat the menu.
26 June 2006, on 11:10 am
the problem with a lot of religious traditions was that many within these traditions didn’t really get poetry or metaphor, and that they actually took everything they read as literal prose.
This is very true. And the problem compounds when these people take their literal interpretations to other lands and present them to other people who have different superstitious beliefs. They end up taking what missionaries say and interpreting it in their own way and then incorporating the new beliefs into their own superstitious beliefs and you get a whole new thing…like African religions mixing with catholicism to form Voodoo.
26 June 2006, on 11:34 am
I am very interested in mythology, as well. They’re stories — sometimes really cool stories, but still just stories. The bible is no more fact to me than a Stephen King novel. The more I read from various traditions’ mythology, the more interesting it is to note how many similar themes exist across cultures. The creation myth gets retold in so many ways. It’s fascinating to see how different people relate it.
Many, many cultures also have a messiah myth. I recently finished reading Tom Harpur’s “The Pagan Christ” which discusses this very thing. Harpur still calls himself a xtian though, so you have to take some of his commentary with that in mind. He postulates that the christ myth evolved from the Egyptian mythology, which itself, evolved from various other cultures’ mythology.
26 June 2006, on 11:51 am
Duke_Stooge Says:
I find myths interesting too, like the myth about the \”soup\” that once covered the whole earth, and from where life supposedly came. Unlike Biblical texts, however, which have some archaeolgical corroboration, the mysterious \”soup\” never left behind any traces…
Oh, it’s an ignat protege of “Dr. Dinosaur.” I recognize that rhetoric a hundred million evolutionary years away.
Rather than argue with you on your own limited grounds, I will get right to the core of the Kent Hovind “argument”: it’s rhetoric.
You focus, in a remarkably childlike way, as “Dr. Hovid” commands you, on the word “soup.” We all came from a soup. “Haha, we made a funny. Chew some more tobaccy, now SPIT!”
Do you have any idea what the term “soup” is being used for metaphorically in this case, or are you just gonna laugh along with “Dr.” Hovind, chomp some more tobaccy, then SPIT!?
The primordial soup hypothesis.
See, there’s this fascinating thing scientists do. They introduced ideas, test them emprically, and from those ideas they grow theories. Those theories are then endlessly tested by their peers. The more empirical evidence that emerges to support the theory, the stronger the theory becomes.
Now YOU GUYS, you have got it all figgered out over that stupid scientific method. You look at a problem, such as “where did life originate?” and you spout “Goddidit!” End of discussion?
Where the fuck do we as a species go from there, waterhead? Tell you what… For every new surgical method, every new drug invented because someone wasn’t willing to sit on his ass and accept “Goddidit” as an explanation, our side gets one point. Oh, and that hacking cough your daughter has had for the past two months. Whatever the infection, Goddidit… And therefore she has no right to go against His Will. I’ll make sure she can’t get her medication. She shouldn’t believe in it anyway.
26 June 2006, on 1:03 pm
The more I read scientific journals and books about real people with actual lives overcoming genuine obstacles and finding meaning and worth in this rather pointless world the less impressed I am by mythology, regardless of its origins.
If I want to veg-out and escape reality for a bit, mythology is a perfect sedative, but as far as “a framework for studying the human animal” it seems quite dubious. How did mythology contribute to Darwin’s examination of the origin of the species?
9 times out of 10 mythology is directly responsible for the molasses-like slowness of humans to understand anything about their world. This ignorance is neither beautiful nor beneficial.
26 June 2006, on 1:11 pm
M,
“Thanks for pointing out the comment policy. I read it and understand”
Holy hot damn! I think this is the first time I’ve seen a theist admit this.
26 June 2006, on 1:50 pm
Holy hot damn! I think this is the first time I’ve seen a theist admit this.
Marcus, I am amazed also. He just quietly went away with no “you are going to burn in hell” comments or anything.
26 June 2006, on 2:00 pm
Lynda Says:
June 26th, 2006 at 1:03 pm e
The more I read scientific journals and books about real people with actual lives overcoming genuine obstacles and finding meaning and worth in this rather pointless world the less impressed I am by mythology, regardless of its origins.
If I want to veg-out and escape reality for a bit, mythology is a perfect sedative, but as far as “a framework for studying the human animal” it seems quite dubious. How did mythology contribute to Darwin’s examination of the origin of the species?
9 times out of 10 mythology is directly responsible for the molasses-like slowness of humans to understand anything about their world. This ignorance is neither beautiful nor beneficial.
I really disagree on that one. Goes back to why writers with imagination were invited to speak for the first episode of Bill Moyers\’ Faith and Reason. We can\’t ignore the fact that we are romantic and imaginative creatures. We can\’t be shoved into sterile lives and still be expected to rise above our biology to make a difference. People need this stuff, that\’s why it exists. Why not a mythological God of Science and Discovery? Promethea, an unsung Alan Moore creation, is a goddess of imagination itself. Loved that comic.
I see what you mean in that I have myself read mostly non-fiction for about a decade now. But that\’s because fiction has had so little to offer me of late. Again, the modern comic book, the epic graphic novel, seems to hold so much more when it comes to the duty of creating new myths to live by.
Anyway, there are actual experts on mythology here that can chime in on this much better than I. Marcus, Eve?
26 June 2006, on 2:06 pm
Sean says:
Whatever the infection, Goddidit… And therefore she has no right to go against His Will.
In late 2004/early 2005 I was having a health problem. The initial symptom, a lengthy bout of constipation, had me going to the doctor, and also had me thinking about my mother who had died of colon cancer. A colonoscopy was performed and everything was a fine — a few hemorrhoids, that’s about it. But I was becoming increasingly anxious and depressed, having night sweats, and losing my appetite and weight for no reason.
Nothing in my life except what was going on in my body was making me anxious or depressed. The doctor tested me for possible gastrointestinal problems as well, and because of the night sweats, even for TB and HIV. Everything was negative. My primary care physician in the meantime, seemed to be giving up on me, and prescribed an antidepressant, which I took only for about three weeks — it only made everything worse. It had me walking around in a brain fog on top of everything else.
For a while, I felt kind of alone, my friends didn’t know what to tell me, and my doctor didn’t seem to have any answers. And here’s the kicker — a xian friend of mine, an intelligent woman who taught computer classes, sent me a book called (I think) The Will of God she got from a xian bookstore. I tossed it during my latest spring cleaning, so I’m not exactly sure of the title. That book drove me insane, all the rationalizing of events in people’s lives as the will of gawd, and the idea we sometimes just don’t understand his will, we have to learn to accept death because it’s “our time”, blah, blah, blah…
Anyway, in the meantime, stubborn ol’ me, I kept doing my research. I wondered, could it have something to do with the fact that I was a vegetarian for 23 years (I still am — mostly) and I had stopped taking all vitamins. So, I thought, you know, I may have just gotten too cocky for my own good by not taking those vitamins. My research finally took me to a site — BrainTalk Communities — when the additional symptom of tingling toes and hands occurred. It turns out a lot of research was pointing to the value of a particular coenzyme of vitamin B12 — methylcobalamin — which can easily get into the bloodstream (does not have to be converted like cyanocobalamin) — and is particular good for the nerves and the brain. I mentioned these additional symptoms to my doctor, and he said peripheral neuropathy, which I had already begun to discover through my research. A neurologist confirmed this diagnosis, but by the time I got to see her, I was already mostly healed.
On the advice of a friend, who said treat the visit like a business appointment, I took a typed list of all the vitamins I was taking. The neurologist came in a few minutes later, with much of the list highlighted, and agreed on my approach. No signs of neuropathy at that point, but she agreed the symptoms pointed to it. A subsequent EMG, showed no evidence of neuropathy. I was cured!
It took 3½ months from the onset of the “tingling toes” for the repairs to my nerves to be made, and for the anxiety and depression to stop, but it worked. The anxiety and depression that I had was due specifically to early damage to the nerves. When I think, I could have said that this was too difficult, that I would turn things over to gawd, resorting to prayer, turning the problem over to my literal sky daddy — or should I say, the awesome threesome-in-one: gawd, jeebus and the holy moly. If I had turned things over to gawd, I could now be suffering from dementia and maybe not even be able to walk. I’ll take the tough road of critical thinking any day over that nonsense!
26 June 2006, on 3:04 pm
Lui: Thanks for laying down the Law of Big Numbers. As someone I know says: “The Lottery: A fun game for those who can’t do math!”
26 June 2006, on 3:07 pm
Wow, Sean, what a great idea; thank you so much for adding this category! Rock on, Warlock!
Lynda: The more I read scientific journals and books about real people with actual lives overcoming genuine obstacles and finding meaning and worth in this rather pointless world the less impressed I am by mythology, regardless of its origins.
But isn’t the “overcoming genuine obstacles and finding meaning and worth in this rather pointless world” the actual act of *creating* mythology, albeit a personal one? Any human being has to have a certain mindset while overcoming obstacles and finding meaning, be it visualization (”it’s a hurdle on this track I must jump over”), affirmation (”I know I can do it; I know I can do it”), some kind of narrative storytelling (”the disease is a villain holding my health prisoner and I must undertake this quest of treatment/procedures to free my wellbeing”), and so on. Does it help if we also call mythology symbolism and allegory? It’s those things and more. Even scientists use metaphor in their language to facilitate communication of ideas; isn’t that a kind of mythologization as well?
Lynda: If I want to veg-out and escape reality for a bit, mythology is a perfect sedative,
Could you give me an example, please? You know, what do you read or watch for entertainment, say?
MoeNeigh, been there, done that, too, so I know a little bit of what it must have been like for you; many kudos!
26 June 2006, on 3:41 pm
Eve said:
the disease is a villain holding my health prisoner and I must undertake this quest of treatment/procedures to free my wellbeing
Have you ever seen the best movie to deal with mythology as a healing path to ever come out of Hollywood? It’s called “The Fisher King.”
See? I’d bet most theists don’t know many atheists even have this side to us. I may be rational, but that doesn’t mean I lack imagination.
- Sean the Warlock
26 June 2006, on 3:43 pm
Thanks for posting the Subject, Sean; and your comments about the scientists, who actually take risks to solve problems…not sitting on their asses accepting, as you mentioned, “Goddidit” as an explanation,…or spouting Jeebus crap!
It’s rather obvious to me that so many people, especially the younger they are, forget how relatively RECENT the advances are, that have been made by scientists.
My parents, long deceased [dad born in 1905, mom in 1907] saw the early stages of our modern inventions like the automobile, paved roads, INDOOR plumbing for the masses, electricity, etc. I witnessed in MY ‘youte’ the progression from having ‘hand held’ and electic fans [no home air conditioning],…’Crystal set’, then Radio only [my family's first TV about 1950],…78 RPM records [no stereos until about the mid-50s!],…wire recorders [before reel to reel and cassette tape!] yada, yada.
Even our so-called medical advances plodded along through the Twentieth Century, with barely any real CURE, even today, of major illnesses.
How many Fundie types have I heard praising Jeebus for the ‘marvelous gift’ of life’, and all the wonderful inventions; never giving any credit where it’s REALLY due? I overheard a gal, at a Cook County Hospital [Chicago] clinic, yapping about how the ‘Lawd’ gave the doctors the ability and knowledge to carry out their healing. I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut; and only did so, to avoid a scene!
What’s my point here?…The study of Mythologies, thanks to people like Joseph Campell, reveals the origins of the made up stuff of ALL Religions. Over time, it seems, they become more and more ‘Literalized’ by the powers that be. Why?…it’s an excellent control over the ignorant masses. You know the results! [What! ...like our Fundie Fuck administration?]
In connection with my ‘opening remarks’ here, there are obvious questions challenging any Theist, which I’ll only ‘allude’ to here:
What kind of god would wait for thousands, if not millions, of years to only allow SOME relief to the suffering from diseases. Hey,…until the 19th Century: No Aspirin, etc….no knowledge of micro-organisms [germs]… No Anasthesia [well...hammers and booze...and ??]…no electricity, of course [hey!..not even light bulbs!]…yada, yada.
Not one major illness [e.g. Cancer] has ever ‘miraculously’ disappeared!
As, I assume, any of you fellow Atheists have pondered: “What would the world have been like; if man NEVER invented Mythologies…and thus…bullshit Religions?
Well,…at least WE ‘lucked out’ being born [that's another yada, yada!] in THIS time period!
And let us not forget man’s marvelous invention of the Internet…the first REAL time that we’ve had ‘this, here’ mode of communication for FREETHINKING!
Of course,…let’s also not let the Theocrats mess it up…”AARGH”!
Thanks again to Sean, …and to ALL you perceptive clubhouse members; I really enjoy and, many times, feel somewhat enlightened after ‘making a visit’ here!
["Can I light a Vigil candle?"...yeah,...I was a Catholic boy!...Yikes!]
One more:…
It’s great to have this ‘Oasis’ in the vast desert of the ‘Brainwashed Masses’!
[OK,...enough of my 'Kissy-Pooh'?]
26 June 2006, on 3:57 pm
I’m just passing through again. Of course I’m not here to say to anyone “You’re going to hell”. I would never do that and it angers me to see Protestants do this all of the time. In my opinion, it makes Christians, and unfortunately Catholics look bad. I’m not for any of that threatening “believe or you’ll die” conversations. I’m not here to judge anyone. Jesus didn’t force anyone to believe when He was on earth and I don’t think it would be correct for me to force anyone. While I certainly want everyone to believe, I am not here to force anyone or use lame arguments. Like I said, I was just passing through.
To the commentor that said this: “if God is so “great”, then he wouldn’t have needed to guide evolution.”
I’d like to state my own beliefs. First, evolution is pretty near scientific fact. The Church and especially John Paul ll have said that it should not be feared. I personally believe the process used by God to create the world included evolution. I believe He created us, especially making man and animal apart. Importantly, the human soul has not evolved. Through the years, creation has evolved physically, though. I see evolution as a method used by God.
Have a great day, everyone
26 June 2006, on 4:07 pm
M: I will respond to you more later in the week. So much going on right now. But yes, one of the things I appreciate about modern Catholicism is that they accept evolution. Denying evolution is like living in total fantasyland at this point and is not helping us bridge any gaps. Thanks for being clear about that.
26 June 2006, on 4:16 pm
Thanks, ChuckA and Eve. And Eve, you know this category is all for you, babe! I hope you use it mucho, witchy-pooh.
(Okay, Marcus and Stardust deserve props as resident mythologists, too. Marcus: does Monthly Metamorphoses deserve to be in this category simply because of its title?)
26 June 2006, on 4:53 pm
Gracias, Seano!
Matt Says: My little brother has an idea for a movie trilogy involving the pantheons of various mythlogies. Pretty cool plot too./I always say that if I ever make it, and I’m damn well trying, I’ll help him develop and sell it./He says he wants Keanu Reeves to play Ares.
A cool idea of your brother’s, Matt; I’d love to collaborate on a project like that. Now, about Keanu as Ares: imho, he would make a much better Hermes or late classical Dionysus, since I find he fits the edgy, slightly androgynous “beautiful boy” god-type rather than the uber-macho, testosterone-loaded, swaggering-jock-type Ares. How about a pumped-up Russell Crowe for the Greek war god?
26 June 2006, on 6:42 pm
Hey! I did a post about Prometheus the other day, and now you’re jumping on the mythology bandwagon. Is it something in the air, or is it the zeitgeist?
26 June 2006, on 10:06 pm
Moeneigh
Good story Great summation.
Sean Stardust Eve Lui and all
This has been a really great posting and comments. Good work to all.
to M
I was at the Atheist meet in Foster city CA on Sat. Eddie Tabash spoke and gave many good stories and ideas. This is one I reallly like.
The Jews while in Egypt were protected by god through all the plagues. Then led out of Egypt parting the Red Sea. Destroying Pharohs well trained army. And then wandering the desert for awhile. There was only a few hundred of them by the way. (Less than a thousnd ? ). Fast forward to 1940’s. Why did this same god not show up to help when the Jews were being rounded up and sent to Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor and all the other death camps where they were systematically disposed of. By Christian Germans. Followers of the same god.
This only magnifies for me the role that mythology has on our lives. We can read these stories and make up our own minds as to their truth. We can always learn a lesson about something and begin to reason out the truth from such stories. I remember in some of my education that there was some cultural education at one time long ago that exactly did make up such stories to teach the ability of reason and to prepare their students for adulthood.
26 June 2006, on 11:58 pm
Jimmer: I just wanted to say that God permits suffering. He certainly does not enjoy it or want it, but it has come into the world because of our sins. Jesus Christ was called the “Man of Sorrows”. He suffered the worst out of anyone in history. I’ve been asked the question a lot before why God permits suffering. I honestly can only speculate. I don’t try to sound like I know all of the answers because I don’t. I have faith and as the years pass I begin to understand theology and the world better. I wrote a little post about it before where you can look if you really would like to read more of my thoughts:
http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-is-there-so-much-evil.html
I am writing because I really wanted to share this quotation I read about a year ago. This is from an anonymous Holocaust victim. This was written on a wall in one of the death camps:
“I believe in the sun even when it is not shining. I believe in love even when I cannot feel it. I believe in God even when He is silent.”
Sean: Thanks for taking your time to answer me. I look forward to reading about your thoughts on Catholicism and/or evolution later in the week.
Thanks again
27 June 2006, on 12:54 am
I just wanted to say that God permits suffering. He certainly does not enjoy it or want it, but it has come into the world because of our sins.
M — I was a xian for more than 30 years (I was a sunday school teacher and assistant superintendent…my husband, now also an atheist was an elder and sunday school superintendent and we have read the bible several times between us). Christianity is a negative religion in too many respects. It focuses on gore, violence, death and sadness and how bad humans are. Why would a loving god, who could have created things any way he wanted, choose to create faulty angels, who corrupt his flawed humans and then MUCH later after centuries upon centuries of dicking with his creations, this god then creates a son for himself for the purpose of being tortured and mutilated and untimately murdered upon a cross. What did humans do that was so terribly bad that this kind of violence and gruesomeness was necessary? Why the S&M games when he could have created a loving environment where all people could have free will and positive personality traits at the same time? Why the games?
Because it’s all mythology. It’s fiction from HUMAN IMAGINATION.
27 June 2006, on 1:34 am
to M
Many here have read what I’ve written before about this suffering of Jesus. I say it was no big deal a total of 48 hrs. and with full knowledge that he would be revived? I do not buy it. Ask a vietnam vet or a gulf war vet or any veteran who has been held captive. They will tell you. Ask the people who are starving and have no hope for a better future. I can go on but I think that is enough for this example. So many more people suffer needlessly and many more suffer due to political reasons and some suffer for years with terrible diseases that strip them of any dignity that they have. This is no god I would consider to be anything more than a pitible old prik. I am not trying to be mean or insultive to you. It is just that I’ve heard the apologist version and it still lacks even a semblance of veracity.
The mythology aspect is the only rational reason for god to exist and only as a means to an end for primitive minds. Cool stories but stories non the less. Today that translates into superstitious artifacts of a primitive mind. We have so much more and better examples of human goodness that we do and will out grow the need and acknowledgement of any and all gods. Many of us here have and many more will join us as time goes on. Your welcome to any time you like.
27 June 2006, on 1:44 am
Please permit me to write this reply to Stardust…
May I ask what denomiation you were? I only view Catholics as true Christians. Other denomiations teach errors and can make Christianity look horrible. I personally don’t think Christianity is negative – life is negative. Something always goes wrong for me it seems. But, Christianity is about hope. Jesus Christ rose from the dead to give us hope in a new Resurrection. Christianity is about finding God and finding lasting peace in our lives.
Why would a loving god, who could have created things any way he wanted, choose to create faulty angels, who corrupt his flawed humans and then MUCH later after centuries upon centuries of dicking with his creations, this god then creates a son for himself for the purpose of being tortured and mutilated and untimately murdered upon a cross.
First off, during those centuries prior to the Incarnation, God was preparing the way for His Son. Relatively every action of the Old Testament foreshadows Christ. God did this so that we might know Our Savior when He came.
And, God could certainly have made perfect angels and humans with no free will. But God isn’t about twisting peoples wrists and making them believe. He wants us all to freely accept Him. And, if we choose not to, then he will answer our requests and not force us to be with Him by sending us where He is not present – hell.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the following:
Paragraph 412:
But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exultet sings, ‘O happy fault, . . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’”
27 June 2006, on 1:51 am
Administrators, please also permit my reply to Jimmer. Thank you in advance.
Jimmer:
Personally, when I see the Cross I see an expression of love. My King came down to his servant and gave up His life for my crimes. He never had to. Rather, he wanted to. If you have watched Gibson’s “The Passion”, I think you will see that it was more painful than anyone could imagine. Jesus was not just pierced with nails. He also had to bear the sins of the world because each one is a death sentence.
His passion lasted his whole life. Remember, that He was born in Bethlehem in the cold of the night, in a feeding tray for animals. He suffered cold, hunger, and pain all throughout his life for the redemption of the human race. The humility of the Lord is just amazing to think about.
It honestly doesn’t matter, in my opinion, that Jesus knew the end result of a Resurrection. I know that after all of my sufferings there will be peace and joy for me because I will be with my true friend.
Have a great night!
27 June 2006, on 1:59 am
true Christians.
ahhhhh here we go again with the TRUE CHRISTIAN argument! I can hardly contain myself!
27 June 2006, on 2:10 am
Other denomiations teach errors and can make Christianity look horrible. I personally don’t think Christianity is negative – life is negative.
Catholics are one of the few who actually have dead taxidermied saints displayed in glass in their cathedrals all over Europe. They are one of the few that display dead jeebus statues on crosses in their churches. That is enough to give children nightmares…and oftentimes does. Catholics have a HUGE problem with pediophile priests.
I was raised gloom and doom German Lutheran…which is “catholic lite”,
life is negative
M — You are SOO WRONG. I feel sorry for you if you think this. Life is GRAND and we only have one and it is pathetic that people like yourself go around thinking this way and waiting to be DEAD to be happy.
Life is what you make it to be. When I was a xian I thought like you. I suffered from depression. I blamed myself for all the bad things that happened. Life for many xians is one big pity party…however…once I let go of all that and started sitting on my deck on Sunday mornings and listening to the birds sing and enjoying being with my family, I became HAPPY. Nature makes me happy. I find most people interesting. I love people and look for the goodness in people instead of the bad. Religion only focuses on the BAD…and people who sit in church and are told they are bad week after week are NOT BAD. They are just brainwashed and need to free themselves from the bonds of the ancient tradition and superstition.
27 June 2006, on 2:26 am
and, if we choose not to, then he will answer our requests and not force us to be with Him by sending us where He is not present – hell.
There’s the hell threat. I was waiting for it.
If you have watched Gibson’s “The Passion”
Mel Psycho Gibson is a Hollywood looney who exploited xians to make money off of them and Hollywood, Gibson and others have found a new group to market to…XIANS. They knew you would especially love the gore. Mel did it for the money
27 June 2006, on 5:02 am
Stardust: you are so right, life IS grand!
We atheists appreciate it so much more than the religious folks, as we KNOW it is the only one, and want to get the most out of it. Why waste time wandering through ‘the purpose driven life’ (urgh that horrible book some xian friends of mine decided to work through – what i read of it was -you are bad , but maybe god will forgive you- where have we heard that before) when you can actually LIVE a purpose driven life.
Accomplishments(and they don’t have to be big -) mean so much more WITHOUT saying ‘god helped me through it’. For me, it can be as small as working out how to make a new recipe, or as important as finally getting a new job after being out of work for a while (yay me!). These things happen because I worked hard at them, and the people in my life (NOT god) helped and supported me.
Life has ups and downs – but it is still worth it. In the past, I have been so down I nearly didn’t come back, but I made a concious decision to change (on my own),as I realised this existence is all we have.
27 June 2006, on 6:30 am
M – you seem to be a nice person so no offense. May you consider this:
We atheists react negatively to “mythology” as reality because it defies reality and logic. BUT more than that it saps a person’s life and masks potential to be even better. Worse, it often infringes on the freedoms and happiness of other “innocent victims,” and indeed causes pain and suffering itself.
I have said this before and I guess I’ll say it again (unless Sean or some Admin says ENOUGH!):
People if they act rationally can live and manage life quite well for themselves (without religion). They will find that other rational secular support systems actually work better. They will see that people thrive if they can live free.
Rational people with FREEDOM eventually come to the best NET positive value. FREEDOM allows societies to come to true positive moral equilibrium for themselves. To EVOLVE to more perfect beings.
The manipulators (e.g., religious leaders) deathly fear that people will find that the “volcano will erupt or not erupt” regardless of their worship and sacrifices to the god(s)and/or to them. They fear that the flock will find that the only true way to “save” yourself is to rationally think through what is situationally best for yourself, your family, your friends, and for society at large, and not to follow some one size fits all ancient dogma and superstition.
People should try it! It is scary at first. But you GROW! They may like it – but they’ll never know unless they try it!
27 June 2006, on 7:00 am
Jesus Christ was called the “Man of Sorrows”. He suffered the worst out of anyone in history.
Well this is just demonstrably bullshit. Here is how William Wallace, another of Mel Gibson’s martyr figures, actually died as opposed to what is shown in the movie “Braveheart”:
27 June 2006, on 7:05 am
As Star said, I can barely contain myself. Come back here when you have gotten an education.
27 June 2006, on 7:08 am
# Audrey Says:
June 26th, 2006 at 11:34 am e
I am very interested in mythology, as well. They’re stories — sometimes really cool stories, but still just stories. The bible is no more fact to me than a Stephen King novel. The more I read from various traditions’ mythology, the more interesting it is to note how many similar themes exist across cultures. The creation myth gets retold in so many ways. It’s fascinating to see how different people relate it.
Many, many cultures also have a messiah myth. I recently finished reading Tom Harpur’s “The Pagan Christ” which discusses this very thing. Harpur still calls himself a xtian though, so you have to take some of his commentary with that in mind. He postulates that the christ myth evolved from the Egyptian mythology, which itself, evolved from various other cultures’ mythology.
What cracks me up is that, rather than see it all as myth, they use all the similar myths as proof that their own myth is true. What a logical backflip that seems to me! As an old wise woman once said: “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
27 June 2006, on 8:06 am
Life is GRAND and we only have one and it is pathetic that people like yourself go around thinking this way and waiting to be DEAD to be happy.
Did I say I wasn’t happy? I hope not because I am very happy. But I seriously will never think that after I’m dead that I will just cease to be. I can not comprehend that. One very prominent Catholic blogger (who was an atheist for many years) found that out when he almost died from an accident. His conversion story is posted online: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0410dr.asp
Lately I’m amazed by the number of Lutherans and atheists entering the Church. Those two groups make up for a lot of the new people in the Church.
Sean: I just want to point out that if you believe Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, then that makes Him the greatest victim. His entire passion was suffered for each and every sin. If He died for each sin of the world that had to be the worst death anyone could imagine. After all, this was God who never had to take flesh and come down to earth to begin with. But, He did and because of that I, along with many others, can reach Heaven.
I’d just like to point out that I’ve felt the presence of God. I feel Him in the Eucharist especially. I also feel His overwhelming love in Confession at the prayer of absolution.
One commentor refered to us keeping saints’ bodies in churches. That is rare, but yes, we keep the bodies of incorruptible saints in Churches. Some have died hundreds of years ago and their bodies have miraculous not decayed. I honestly was never scared by this as a child. Instead, I found it to be a great miracle that something like this could happen. I also view the Eucharistic miracles in high esteem. Studies on them prove they are truly human flesh and blood. I believe the studies said the blood Type was AB. Those along with the apparitions of Mary and the Miracle of the Sun have always interested me through the years.
Please realize that not all priests are pedophiles. There are many, many great priests. It is a great shame that even around 1% of priests have been accused. The ones that did do such horrible crimes deserve to be locked away in prison forever. As someone like myself who is planning to serve as a priest, I ask you to please not judge us all because of the actions of some.
EVERYONE: From my short stay visiting it seems that everyone here is an atheist and not agnostic. So, I’d like someone to explain how they are 100% sure God does not exist. Where is the scientific study proving this?
Thanks for allowing me to comment here. I appreciate it.
27 June 2006, on 9:21 am
But I seriously will never think that after I’m dead that I will just cease to be. I can not comprehend that.
Here is the ONLY reason people believe — for fear of the inevitable and they cannot cope. It is ultimately a SELFISH reason people believe in this stuff. Some people fantasy to cope with that reality, and some of accept reality and say “that’s life” and I am going to live to the fullest while I am here.
Did I say I wasn’t happy? I hope not because I am very happy.
I’m sorry, but I perceive people who look at life as negative to NOT be very happy.
I’d just like to point out that I’ve felt the presence of God. I feel Him in the Eucharist especially. I also feel His overwhelming love in Confession at the prayer of absolution.
People who are desperate for a crutch, create one for themselves. Many people are taught they need this when they should be taught to trust themselves.
27 June 2006, on 9:38 am
Lately I’m amazed by the number of Lutherans and atheists entering the Church. Those two groups make up for a lot of the new people in the Church.
Lutherans are the biggest bunch of downers I have ever been associated with, especially the Missouri Synod sect. They wallow in self-pity and self-hate, so it doesn’t surprise me that they would be attracted to a morid religion. As for atheists who “find religion” or fall back into religion, they are just not strong enough or brave enough to stand on their own. This indoctrination of being “weak” starts in this society at a young age. Take the Jesus Loves Me song:
Jeebus loves me this I know
For the Babble tells me so
Little ones to him belong
They are “WEAK” but he is STRONG.
From very young ages, kids are taught that they are helpless, mindless creatures without Jeebus instead of being taught self-confidence, self-respect and self-reliance.
So, I’d like someone to explain how they are 100% sure God does not exist. Where is the scientific study proving this?
It is YOUR job to prove that he does exist..scientifically. YOU are the one making the claim. Where is YOUR scientific study proving the existence of this gawd?
27 June 2006, on 10:26 am
“Oh, it’s an ignat protege of “Dr. Dinosaur.” I recognize that rhetoric a hundred million evolutionary years away.
Rather than argue with you on your own limited grounds, I will get right to the core of the Kent Hovind “argument”: it’s rhetoric.
You focus, in a remarkably childlike way, as “Dr. Hovid” commands you, on the word “soup.” We all came from a soup. “Haha, we made a funny. Chew some more tobaccy, now SPIT!”
Do you have any idea what the term “soup” is being used for metaphorically in this case, or are you just gonna laugh along with “Dr.” Hovind, chomp some more tobaccy, then SPIT!?
The primordial soup hypothesis.
See, there’s this fascinating thing scientists do. They introduced ideas, test them emprically, and from those ideas they grow theories. Those theories are then endlessly tested by their peers. The more empirical evidence that emerges to support the theory, the stronger the theory becomes.
Now YOU GUYS, you have got it all figgered out over that stupid scientific method. You look at a problem, such as “where did life originate?” and you spout “Goddidit!” End of discussion?
Where the fuck do we as a species go from there, waterhead? Tell you what… For every new surgical method, every new drug invented because someone wasn’t willing to sit on his ass and accept “Goddidit” as an explanation, our side gets one point. Oh, and that hacking cough your daughter has had for the past two months. Whatever the infection, Goddidit… And therefore she has no right to go against His Will. I’ll make sure she can’t get her medication. She shouldn’t believe in it anyway”
I knew this would set off somebody’s Condescendence Gene. You missed the whole point. Sit, drink a big glass of Evian, and relax.
All I’m saying is, your beliefs are not conclusive, either. Regardless of what you consider ‘evidence’, naturalism and atheism are still both faith-based, until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you’re right and the religious believers are wrong. Now wash your mouth out with some Ivory and act like a grown-up for once.
27 June 2006, on 10:28 am
M Says:
I only view Catholics as true Christians. Other denomiations teach errors and can make Christianity look horrible.
Personally, I feel that most all religions teach errors, and most DO look horrible. For example, many say “love” but actually mean “hate”. Certain groups, such as mine — homos — are loved by Jeebus, but the “sin” is hated. There’s the old “love the sinner but hate the sin” syndrome again. Another way to exclude and hate.
All I can say, is I’m thankful for the exclusion. It has opened my eyes to what is really going on. I would never want to be a part of such a “love equals hate” organization. And you don’t have to be a homosexual. Even moderate xians are made to feel that they are bad. As others have pointed out, all xians must basically be made to feel that they are bad first of all, and Jeebus with his S&M ritual, will make it all better. What a crock!
There is often truth in humor. As one comedian said (I forget the name):
Catholics say, well, it’s OK to BE a homosexual, but you mustn’t practice homosexuality. I say, it’s OK to BE a Catholic, just don’t practice Catholicism.
27 June 2006, on 10:29 am
Hey, M, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, found gaping holes in it and threw it away.
Eve, let’s see, I like to veg-out with “Sex and the City”. That’s some really modern mythology, especially how millions of dollars of clothing miraculously appear in the closet of a journalist. Old movies with Kate Hepburn and Cary Grant are adorable romantic myths. Book wise I love Ray Bradbury’s science fiction. His descriptive passages really suck you into another world. It seems that the stacks of non-fiction piling up that I really want to read keep me from indulging in much veg-out material these days.
Sean, I think imagination and creativity is a vital part of humanity. It’s probably the most exciting aspect of our existence and new technology would likely never happen were it not for the vivid imaginations of those who want to make their lives ‘better’. Perhaps the mythologies about flight contributed to the eventual experiments that led to humankind’s adventures to the moon. You do have to imagine something as possible in order to head in that direction.
However, mythology can and does lead to inaction and morbid acceptance as well. Monks will sit in one place letting whatever happens happen because they believe in the myth of Buddha. A childhood filled with fairy tales can lead to unrealistic expectations of life, eventually resulting in unhappiness and dissatisfaction.
I’m not sure the value of mythology outweighs the harm. And I still don’t agree that it provides a good framework for the study of the human animal. Most mythology, especially of the classical variety, tends to place human animals on some kind of pedestal above other animal species. This beginning point skews the ability to examine humans without prejudice.
I also wonder if it’s such a good idea to “rise above our biology to make a difference”. There is nothing sterile about science. All the muck and guck and essence of being is there. Just ask any Xian parent trying to keep sex education out of the schools.
27 June 2006, on 10:34 am
Actually, I asked you first.
I’ll come right out and say that I can not prove God with science. God is above science as he is the creator of everything. Aside from the great proven miracles of the Eucharist, Marian apparitions, incorruptible saints, miracles proven through the intercession of saints, and others I can offer no proof.
I will let you know that through faith you receive proof. If you honestly believe and trust Jesus then you will receive the proof and feel His presence. I’ve heard this time and time again from atheists that convert to the Catholic Church.
I am not desperate for a crutch. God is my Creator and Master. He is a friend, the greatest of them all. Someone that loved me so much He died my death. Quite honestly if Heaven was not possible I would still praise God. If I knew for sure that I was going to hell no matter what, I would still give Him glory because He is my Creator. Those are my honest words.
I don’t look at life negatively. Just because one thinks about death it doesn’t make life negative. There are countless positive things each day.
27 June 2006, on 10:38 am
These lyrics from a song recorded years ago by Blood Sweat & Tears sums it up:
“I’m not scared of dyin’ and I don’t really care
If it’s peace you find in dyin’, Well then let the time be near
If it’s peace you find in dyin when dyin’ time is here
Just bundle up my coffin ’cause I hear it’s cold down there.
My troubles here are many, They’re as deep as a well
I swear there ain’t no heaven, And pray there ain’t no hell
But I’ll never know by livin, Only my dyin will tell.
Give me my freedom for as long as I be
All I ask of livin is to have no chains on me
All I ask of livin’ is to have no chains on me
And all I ask of dyin is to go naturally.
And when I die, and when I’m gone
There’ll be one child born
And a whole wide world to carry on.”
-Laura Nyro (And When I Die)
27 June 2006, on 10:40 am
That’s some really modern mythology, especially how millions of dollars of clothing miraculously appear in the closet of a journalist.
Lynda — My daughter and I always laugh about that. Carrie lives in a shithole, making a journalist salary and buys scads and scads of designer clothes and $300 shoes. It’s every working girl’s fantasy to be able to live like Carrie.
27 June 2006, on 10:43 am
You might find this short essay to be of interest.
http://dailyblatt.blogspot.com/2005/10/richard-dawkins-on-opiate-of-masses.html
I see the mind as capable of performing any and all sorts of delusions and grandiosities. No external heebie geebie needed. Any person who has had the opportunity to investigate the reactions of other people who have used LSD or other drugs. Will admit that there is little difference between drug induced and self-induced apparitions or visions. Today the religious make a claim of godly visions. The rest of us who have this occur have a doctors visit. And often times receive medical intervention.
Those feelings M has when in a self induced state of ecstasy are well known to the psychiatric profession. It is too bad he does not read up on it. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Except when it is used as proof of an extra worldly event. And justification of the continued teachings associated with that self-delusion.
Prove god ? I have no need to do anything of the kind. God is irrelevant. I have no fear of the day I die. As I mentioned previously I do not believe.
27 June 2006, on 10:47 am
M Says:
Quite honestly if Heaven was not possible I would still praise God. If I knew for sure that I was going to hell no matter what, I would still give Him glory because He is my Creator.
Come on! How brainwashed and sadomasochistic is that?!
27 June 2006, on 11:00 am
Actually, I asked you first.
M – Xians have been making this claim for 2000 years with NO EVIDENCE. The ball is in YOUR court, not mine. I didn\’t make any claim. One cannot provide evidence for something that is non-existent. By your logic YOU should prove to people who believe in gnomes, unicorns, fairies and such that they do not exist, using scientific method.
I’ll come right out and say that I can not prove God with science.
There is not one shred of evidence for this gawd except an ancient story that HUMANS create. And they keep altering the myth and create spin-off sentimental stories about the myth that touch emotions and cause more people to cling to the myth. There are so many fictional stories that manipulate this myth to be whatever they want it to be. This includes catholics.
I am not desperate for a crutch. God is my Creator and Master. He is a friend, the greatest of them all. Someone that loved me so much He died my death.
You double-speak. You don\’t need a crutch, but you are slave to a Master. If I am sick, my best friend or my husband will make me some chicken soup and take care of me. If I sat around waiting for a gawd or if I was alone like many elderly are, then I would die from the sickness. Only human intervention can save anyone. And there you go with the death, death death crap again. If you really listened to yourself, you would hear that you sound like a programmed android.
(This is what I meant in an earlier post about giving an inch to religious people and they take a mile. M is on a conversion mission…or using us for practice in his quest for the priesthood.)
27 June 2006, on 11:20 am
Stardust
I agree, give an inch. I rarely dialogue with xians but it seemed ok. Everytime I have done so lately it has been the same. Nod your head to acknowledge someone and you have some clingy attachment to the disourse. I think they (religious folks) must think that we (atheists) have just become non-believers. And try to save us before it is too late.
27 June 2006, on 11:33 am
I think they (religious folks) must think that we (atheists) have just become non-believers. And try to save us before it is too late.
jimmer – exactly. They start in on their preaching without stopping to consider that we have been there, done that and oftentimes more education in theology and religion than xians are. Most don’t have a clue that the “gawd” of this blog has a Ph.D and most bloggers on this site (and regular commentors) are highly educated and have good jobs — so good that they can manage to blog at work
It’s especially annoying to be proselytized to by illiterate know-nothings (not saying that M is in that category, but most have been.)
27 June 2006, on 11:40 am
Damn, it\’s getting hard to keep up on a day to day basis. I\’ll have to go back to thrice daily checks.
To relax any batshit crazy theists here, I have read the bibble several times and I will reiterate- it is a fantastic and well done mythology. That\’s as simple as it gets. You may think that I use the term to connote that your beliefs are false; that is not true. \”Mythology\” is, simply, used to describe a system of religious beliefs. There is no \”true\” or \”false\” about the term. Of course, it is still silly to believe in the patently absurd; therefore, xians are silly.
I do find some merit in calling modern day comic books and graphic novels a genre of modern day mythology, but I would give them that classification with a sense of delicate consideration. Few of them could be considered timely and most certainly our ancestors two thousand years from now (if we haven\’t killed ourselves) will find less interest in our comic books than they would in, say, The Godfather or our folklore (imagine skinny Johnny Appleseed becoming a naked, massively *ahem* virile fertility god). One or two comic book characters might survive, but they must have flaws to be truly heroic and accessible. Mythology hates perfection; it makes for boring entertainment- \”gawd\” as he figures in the bibble is a less active character than fallible humans and (yes, fallible) jizzus who at least functions as a human channeling powers or knowledge of god, quite the popular myththeme. Biblical characters survive in story for much the same reason Homeric characters do- they\’re fun to watch. But like some other morons in the world who are confused as to if Vito Corleone was a real person, theists think thier specific gods are real.
M, I knew you wouldn\’t keep your promise for long.
Oh, and the whole of the house of Cadmus, specifically Agave and especially Pentheus, suffered worse than jizzus. So did Prometheus. So did Oedipus. So did Cassandra. So did blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum…
27 June 2006, on 11:44 am
Duke Stooge Says:
I knew this would set off somebody’s Condescendence Gene. You missed the whole point. Sit, drink a big glass of Evian, and relax.
Evasion.
All I’m saying is, your beliefs are not conclusive, either.
Untrue. Argument from ignorance. Look up the actual scientific meaning of “theory.” Look up the literal meaning of “atheist.” Neither is a “belief.”
Regardless of what you consider ‘evidence’, naturalism and atheism are still both faith-based
See the previous question.
Until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you’re right and the religious believers are wrong.
Argument from logical fallacy. The burden of proof remains on the person making extaordinary claims.
Now wash your mouth out with some Ivory and act like a grown-up for once.
Every time you evoke the name of Jesus or Jehovah, I want you to wash your mouth out, too. They have killed many more millions than the word “fuck” has.
Fuckhead.
27 June 2006, on 12:04 pm
I’d like to point out that Christianity is not based on any primitive or mythological beliefs. Have anyone of you heard of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen’s tv series “Life is Worth Living”? It was extremely popular on Tuesday nights in the 1950s. I watched a re-run just about a month ago and it was on comparing world religions. He said that Christianity is not based on any previous, primitive beliefs like paganism. I think he had several good points to back it up. I wrote a short article that summarizes some of it although it doesn’t do the program justice. Fulton J. Sheen was an excellent speaker in my opinion.
http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/06/fulton-j-sheen-study-of-world.html
Marcus: What promise am I not keeping? I am not being pushy here. I’m just having a civilized discussion.
27 June 2006, on 12:23 pm
“I’d like to point out that Christianity is not based on any primitive or mythological beliefs.”
What are you? Some kind of idiot?
“It was extremely popular on Tuesday nights in the 1950s.”
So were lynchings.
“He said that Christianity is not based on any previous, primitive beliefs like paganism.”
Of course he did- ever heard of job security? I might also add that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. If your little summation is accurate, he is focused on superficial, philisophical arguments. Xianity’s link to primitive, mythological beliefs is obvious to researchers who don’t “sit around and think shit up” but actually work.
“What promise am I not keeping? I am not being pushy here. I’m just having a civilized discussion.”
With veiled witnessing rhetoric, so you are technically breaking the comment policy, but nice try.
27 June 2006, on 12:27 pm
I’d like to point out that Christianity is not based on any primitive or mythological beliefs.
M — ever heard of Mithraism? Xianity came from Mithraism. Constantine was a Mithras worshipper even when he claimed to be an xian. I am not going to rewrite it all again, but you can read it here: Mithraism and Christianity – A Connection?
27 June 2006, on 12:37 pm
With veiled witnessing rhetoric, so you are technically breaking the comment policy, but nice try.
Marcus, I am glad you pointed that out.
M – then what is your purpose here? Because you are considering deconversion? Is your purpose merely to have “discussion” and to try to learn from things we have to say and to make insightful contribution to the discussion? Then why not get in on the conversation about the aspects of mythology? Your focus so far has been strictly on xian mythology and your one “true” version of that mythology.
Isn’t it true that you are here to use us for practice in your quest for the priesthood? You are here to try to evangelize, aren’t you? I know it’s really hard for xians, but be honest.
27 June 2006, on 2:55 pm
M – Considering the fact that human history itself only goes back five, six thousand years, any idea from two thousand years ago is ancient by default.
Also, anybody who believe there are no pagan roots to Christianity hasn’t read much of anything on the subject.
27 June 2006, on 3:02 pm
Isn’t it true that you are here to use us for practice in your quest for the priesthood? You are here to try to evangelize, aren’t you? I know it’s really hard for xians, but be honest.
Rock on, Star!
27 June 2006, on 4:14 pm
Why sometimes it’s difficult for an atheist to understand us Christians. “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
I wonder if any of you atheists could find 11 close friends to die for a ‘lie’. 11 apostles were executed for preaching the teachings of Jesus. That he died for our sins and rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven which was witnessed by about 500 onlookers. 11 of which were his apostles.
God bless you all.
27 June 2006, on 5:53 pm
Tito: BULLSHIT.
Prove it.
27 June 2006, on 6:33 pm
I wonder if any of you atheists could find 11 close friends to die for a ‘lie’. 11 apostles were executed for preaching the teachings of Jesus.
There they go with the death obsession again. Violent thinking.
27 June 2006, on 6:43 pm
Prometheus created man from mud, and stole fire from the gods to keep his creation alive. For this he was chained to a mountain, and an eagle chewed his liver for thirty thousand years! Now that’s suffering! Jesus was dead by three ‘o clock in the afternoon. There’s no comparison.
Odin hung himself on Yggasdril for nine days – and lost an eye!
Osiris was chopped up into fourteen pieces.
Marsyas was flayed alive.
Atlas had to carry the sky on his shoulders.
Ixion was bound to a fiery wheel
Uranus was castrated.
Orpheus was torn apart by maenads, but his head continued to sing.
And you say that Jesus’s suffering was worst?
27 June 2006, on 7:01 pm
Pre-apologies to the board, but this pissed me off.
Tito said: I wonder if any of you atheists could find 11 close friends to die for a ‘lie’. 11 apostles were executed for preaching the teachings of Jesus.
Tito, if the mods allow me, may I just say that you espouse the verbal diarrhea so common in people of your blinded ilk.
Atheists and theists alike have been dying for the lies of governments for time immemorium — especially for those governments consumed by the lie that is xtianity — case in point, the current US.
You, sir, are an asshole.
27 June 2006, on 7:27 pm
I have no difficulty understanding the beliefs of xianity. I do not believe in such unbelievable nonsense. Many of us have been brought up as xians and have rejected it after careful consideration. I myself could no longer sustain the conflict between rational thinking and having a trust in faith. Reason won out. Faith has about zero chance of providing any kind of verifiable proof that anything at all exists. And yet people take it on faith alone that a guy was dead for about 2 days and came back to life. Then he teaches (you say) 500 people for 40 days and then floats up into heaven (the belief/faith of the day). Heaven was just right up there can you see it?
Ok so we know heaven is not just right there and people do not float away into heaven. One of the first cosmonauts Yuri Gagarin stated that he looked and did not see god. That is a factual account of first hand experience. Many astronauts later and no-one has reported seeing any gods or floating saviors.
I do not have any touble understanding it at all. I have trouble uunderstanding how supposed adults can still believe in such ridiculous tales.
27 June 2006, on 8:30 pm
I think Tito makes a good point – would thousands of people die for a lie? There are millions of Catholic martyrs. Do you honestly believe all of them would die for a lie? St. Justin found the Church after living as a pagan philosopher for years. He said one day he realized that no one died for Plato – people would only die for something that is true. St. Justin became a martyr too.
27 June 2006, on 8:33 pm
Deacon Barry: good on ya, bro’. Nice.
27 June 2006, on 8:35 pm
MoeNeigh says:
It took 3½ months from the onset of the “tingling toes” for the repairs to my nerves to be made, and for the anxiety and depression to stop, but it worked. The anxiety and depression that I had was due specifically to early damage to the nerves. When I think, I could have said that this was too difficult, that I would turn things over to gawd, resorting to prayer, turning the problem over to my literal sky daddy — or should I say, the awesome threesome-in-one: gawd, jeebus and the holy moly. If I had turned things over to gawd, I could now be suffering from dementia and maybe not even be able to walk. I’ll take the tough road of critical thinking any day over that nonsense!
Great fucking story, MoNeigh.
27 June 2006, on 8:39 pm
Audrey Says:
Atheists and theists alike have been dying for the lies of governments for time immemorium — especially for those governments consumed by the lie that is xtianity — case in point, the current US.
You, sir, are an asshole.
Ramen, Audrey.
27 June 2006, on 8:44 pm
M Says:
There are millions of Catholic martyrs. Do you honestly believe all of them would die for a lie?
Now that’s what I call martyr-dumb.
27 June 2006, on 8:59 pm
Do you honestly believe all of them would die for a lie? He said one day he realized that no one died for Plato – people would only die for something that is true. St. Justin became a martyr too.
The more valid question is, would people die for a delusion? If your answer is no, then you are a fool.
Go read a fuckin’ book, meathead.
27 June 2006, on 9:04 pm
As usual, xians do not know how to read. M has proved this in comment #84 when he ignores what we have written and proceeds to agree with dumbass Tito. Like I said, he is only here to spew out his catholic version of xian mythology.
M writes “people would only die for something that is true”
Correction: people would only die for something they BELIEVE to be true (but doesn’t necessarily have to be true outside of that person or group’s mind…look at Jonestown. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
27 June 2006, on 9:17 pm
Another example: Muslim suicide bombers die for a lie every day.
27 June 2006, on 9:21 pm
Reminds me of one of my favorite Onion articles, Star.
27 June 2006, on 9:31 pm
Sean, that’s great! ha!
27 June 2006, on 10:56 pm
People would only die for something that is true”
But how do you know it is true?
Because people are willing to die for it. Silly
Sean
The Onion article is wonderful.
“I mean, it’s tough enough being forced through a wire screen by the callused palms of Halcorym and then having your entrails wound onto a stick and fed to the toothless, foul-breathed swine of Gehenna. But to endure that while watching the righteous drink from a river of wine? That can’t be fun.”
Man. I could hang with these guys.
27 June 2006, on 11:00 pm
M,
“…would thousands of people die for a lie?”
Of course- millions have in the past. You could call them the broader pool of research data in such studies as the Stanford Prison experiment, the Milgram study, and the Asch Conformity experiments.
O yeah, it’s my birthday! O yeah, it’s my birthday! Bake me a cake, Meow Mix.
27 June 2006, on 11:07 pm
LOL
Exacerbating the terrorists’ tortures, which include being hollowed out and used as prophylactics by thorn-cocked Gulbuth The Rampant…
Bwahahaha!
But they certainly didn’t seem prepared to be skewered from eye socket to bunghole and then placed on a spit so that their flesh could be roasted by the searing gale of flatus which issues forth from the haunches of Asmoday.
27 June 2006, on 11:08 pm
Happy birthday, Marcus Man!
28 June 2006, on 10:52 am
And even more ridiculous! People will kill based on a lie. Jews in Germany springs to mind. All in the name of god of course. So that makes it ok.
28 June 2006, on 1:37 pm
Sean,
It’s not really my birthday *sob* but you can continue to wish me if you like.
28 June 2006, on 1:42 pm
To Marcus,
*plays air guitar* Today is your birthday! Happy Birthday to you!
M: St. Justin…said one day he realized that no one died for Plato…
Of course not. Plato did not ask for anyone to die for him. His philosophy does not ask for anyone to die for it. He did not set himself up as a god or object of worship, nor did he set his philosophy up as a religion or ideology. I admit I’m fuzzy on the distinction, but I don’t think philosophy qualifies as mythology, since it isn’t a system of religious beliefs.
Imho, Justin made a fundamental error of logic and reasoning in equating platonism to xianity; plus, he started out with an absolute belief in god as a reality, not a man-imagined concept. This is exactly the outright bias that scientists and scholars do everything in their power to avoid when embarking on an experiment or line of study because of how it taints/corrupts the results. Justin did the exact opposite by embracing this bias from the start and actively seeking that which supported and seemed to confirm it.
28 June 2006, on 1:44 pm
Curses, Marcus! May microscopic air piranhas nibble at your privates for the rest of this day!
28 June 2006, on 3:55 pm
M, you are so close. You are mere inches away from rational thought. Okay, follow this…
Religion differs from science in one very important way: reproducibility. If a thing is reproducible, it is accepted as real. If it cannot be reproduced, is is not proven.
Examples: Religious person says, “My deity caused “X” to happen.” Scientist says, “Do it again.” Religious person: “No, you can’t test my deity.”
Contrast that with this example: Scientist says, “I took a measurement that suggests “X” occurred.” Religious person says, “Do it again.” Scientist says, “Okay.” Does it again, gets same results. Religious person says (100 times), “Do it again.” Scientist does it again (100,000 times, gets same results every time). Religious person: My deity makes that happen…
Do you see the problem, M? You are making a claim, yet offering no OBJECTIVE, MEASURABLE, REPRODUCIBLE proof. All you offer is your opinion about your deity’s mindset. And you revel in your lack of proof: you introduce the word “faith,” as if that’s anything more than YOUR opinion.
Frankly, I think one of the earliest things you said really says it all: “…do you really believe that for the rest of eternity you will be no more? No more thoughts or feelings? I certainly don’t…” (Please read Post # 7 to see if I’ve taken this out of context.)
This is what is at the center of all eternal-life mythologies. The inability to comprehend the lack of one’s own existence.
Atheists, on the other hand, look at the evidence: A person is born, lives for a while, then is no more. Forever. Happens billions, trillions of times over human history. We make no extraordinary claims about it, it simply is observable, reproducible, measurable reality.
And to reiterate what a previous post said, this is why the burden of proof is upon you, and not us. You are making a claim about the unobservable, unmeasurable, un-reproducible. We are simply saying, “Prove it.” Those two words could sum up every atheist. And so, dear M, prove it. Measure it. Reproduce it. And if you can, you might want to look into “The Amazing Randi’s” million-dollar prize.
28 June 2006, on 5:58 pm
Dammit, I lose a comment thread for a couple of days and things get all serious on me.
All “conversion stories” start with “I was a hardcore Atheist”. All of them. I have never heard one that doesn’t. Of course every one of these stories is a Lie For Jesus.
Xians seem to have this idea that we simply don’t know anything about the Bibble. That we are unfamiliar with the words of Jeebus. That we do not know the stories, but we do. All of them. Probably better than most of them do. Why? Most of us did not give up our faith lightly. Most of us could start a conversion story with “I was a hardcore christian”.
In the 1950’s some guy said xianity did not come from a previous myth? That’s great. In the 1950’s blacks couldn’t drink from the same water fountain as whites, cigarettes were good for you, married people couldn’t sleep in the same bed on TV, and “under god” was put into the Pledge of Allegiance because of godless commies. The 1950’s can be best used as a cautionary example: “Do not ever behave this way again. This way lies madness.”
No pagan origins for xians? So you have bunnies and eggs on one of your most holy of holy days, why? Yule logs and xmas trees came from where now?
Ever heard of Zoroastrianism? Cuz that’s where xians picked up the “Devil” meme.
People die for lies all the time, as has been demonstrated by other commenters. Heaven’s Gate, Jonestown, Muslim extremists, multitudes of people have died for lies, believing those lies to be true. Nobody died for Plato, but Socrates died for himself. Everyone seems to forget that.
William Wallace’s death is a good example of suffering greater than Jeebus did. Not only did he suffer more physically, he suffered more spiritually (not having that whole guaranteed afterlife thing that poor ol’ Jeebus was saddled with). Wallace also died for his people, for their “salvation” as it were.
For scientists, facts determine conclusions. For xians conclusions determine facts.
Xianity is a Death Cult. The xian gawd is a monster. He sends men to kill their children, destoys lives and families on a bet, and sends bears to tear apart children for making fun of a bald guy.
And as a final note I would like to relate to you this 100% true story of proof of otherworldly influence in my daily life. I am not making this story up to prove a point. This actually happened to me:
Back in the days of my youth I was something of a wandering soul. That is to say I was a homeless drifter poet. Kerouac and his ilk having had a profound influence on me at a young age. I was roaming around with a friend, Jess, and the two of us basically crawled around the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area specifically and Minnesota in general (we would have wandered farther, but threats from girlfriends curt-tailed that notion).
We were both big Doors fans, particularly fond of Jim Morrison’s lyrics from a poetical standpoint. Jim was a big proponent of the wandering life and it was decided by the two of us, in a fit of hysterical sleep deprived laughter, that he would be the “patron saint of hitch-hikers”.
One day, were having a difficult time catching a ride. We had walked miles and no one even pretended to stop. So we decided to offer up a prayer to the spirit of Jim Morrison for a ride, as we were weary from our travels.
Within minutes a car stopped. It was full of pretty girls. They were just coming back from a big Janis Joplin music festival (for those that don’t know, Jim Morrison was obsessed with Janis and he had to be pulled off of her on more than one occasion). On the back of the head rest of the front passenger seat of this car someone had written “Hello, I love you, Won’t you tell me your name” which is a line from a Doors song. The girls asked us what we were doing, we said nothing much and they asked if we wanted to go hang out with them. A good time was had by all.
So there you are. I prayed to Jim Morrison and my prayer was answered, with enough supporting coincidence to “prove” (as most xians gauge such things) the car was sent by him personally.
You can pray to whatever or whoever you want. Your prayers are just as likely to be answered by praying to God, Jim Morrison, or a rock in your yard.
Sorry for the length. Too many subjects in this thread. Heh.
28 June 2006, on 6:33 pm
[...] In the course of a recent exchange on the Mythology post, a Catholic commenter openly admitted that he could not scientifically prove that his God exists, only to proceed to mention the following (perhaps with tongue firmly in cheek): [...]
28 June 2006, on 7:37 pm
Lynda, thank you for replying and sorry for my delay in responding to you.
You said: However, mythology can and does lead to inaction and morbid acceptance as well. Monks will sit in one place letting whatever happens happen because they believe in the myth of Buddha. A childhood filled with fairy tales can lead to unrealistic expectations of life, eventually resulting in unhappiness and dissatisfaction.
It seems to me that maybe we’re talking at cross-purposes here. There’s a huge difference between literally *believing* in any given mythology, and reading and studying it from a scholarly, scientific, or even entertainment point of view. I think I’m pretty safe in stating that none of us mythology buffs here at GifS takes it seriously, as in a set of rules (certainly not religious beliefs!) to live by. Most of us studied it as part of our college career, in my particular case as a source of inspiration for and influence on art and literature. It’s really hard to study Renaissance English literature without a solid background in Greco-Roman mythology; you wouldn’t understand the references alone, just to start with!
L: I’m not sure the value of mythology outweighs the harm.
When people take it as fact and not fiction, you’re absolutely right.
L: And I still don’t agree that it provides a good framework for the study of the human animal.
I’m not sure that students of past human cultures would agree with you. For example, would our understanding of ancient Egyptian civilization be as rich as it is today if we hadn’t taken the time to read, analyze, and at least attempt to comprehend ancient Egyptian mythology?
L: Most mythology, especially of the classical variety, tends to place human animals on some kind of pedestal above other animal species. This beginning point skews the ability to examine humans without prejudice.
I agree, because most mythology has been created by the people who believe it literally. The ancient Hebrews who wrote the biblical account of Adam and Eve already believed that humans were intrinsically “evil” and that women were basically “inferior” to men; hence, the “fall” of man due to woman’s “weakness.” Most reputable scholars who study this text in Genesis do their very best to put aside any preconceived ideas of their own (like every good scientist) before approaching it; they’re studying it to determine what the people who wrote it meant to say and why, not because they’re planning to believe in it themselves.
L: There is nothing sterile about science. All the muck and guck and essence of being is there. Just ask any Xian parent trying to keep sex education out of the schools.
I agree, and I don’t see where anyone here called science “sterile.” Sean’s words were, “We can’t ignore the fact that we are romantic and imaginative creatures. We can’t be shoved into sterile lives and still be expected to rise above our biology to make a difference.”
28 June 2006, on 7:37 pm
I can not prove God’s existence with science because God is above science. Science and creation all point to God but can not explain Him 100%. No one can know God 100%. You have to look at the big picture. And you have to understand love. Then you will truly know God. I speak from experience.
Several famous scientists and writers found this out. Francis Collins, the Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, has gone from complete atheist to Christian.
I think it comes down to what Tito said: “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
Thanks for listening
28 June 2006, on 8:29 pm
How typical of a theist: obliged to admit that he can’t prove the existence of his god with science, M insults us in his next breath by implying that we can’t see the “big picture” or “understand love.” Never mind assuming that we don’t speak from experience, like he does.
Then he pulls an appeal to authority by holding up as – what, proof that god exists? – a converted scientist, of all people; this after trying to *dismiss* science from the argument entirely. And a scientist who became a Methodist to boot; what happened to his statement that only Catholics are True Christians ™?
28 June 2006, on 8:36 pm
Only a True Christian™ could manage that much hypocrisy in such a small number of words.
28 June 2006, on 8:37 pm
What gets me, M, is your insinuation that we don’t “understand love.” You say this, and yet you’re about to enter an institution that not only does not allow women in its higher levels of government, but also continues to teach anti-feminist and sometimes downright anti-human ideas even in this day and age.
That preaches that sex education other than insistence on abstinence; birth control other than the rhythm method; sex other than between a man and woman married to each other; procreation other than via heterosexual intercourse between a man and woman married to each other; parents other than a man and woman married to each other; and abortion even in the case of a gang-raped child is wrong/sinful/taboo/forbidden and therefore to be outlawed for EVERYONE, even those of us who DISAGREE with these ideas.
Of course no explanation is necessary for Tito and you; you have none, certainly none that makes sense to an intelligent, college-educated, independent, heterosexual single woman with no desire to get married or have children.
28 June 2006, on 9:26 pm
While I certainly believe Catholics believe in the whole truth, I would much rather to have someone a Methodist than an atheist.
And, you previously asked why I’m here. I’d like to answer that.
1) To observe. We live a completely different life. I wanted to look into how your guys live, act, and write. I wanted to seek to understand why someone would deny someone who obviously not only exists but loves me. I’m here first and foremost as an observer. What I’ve witnessed leads me to two conclusions about how we differ – an atheist (in general) does not know love and displays pride. I am basing this off of a general picture because some of you appear to be very kind and well-meaning people.
2)To look for statistics. I found this site while looking for statistics on the number of atheists in the world and the US. I found that people claiming no religion in the US is at 14% of the population. Catholics are at 25% and Protestants at 52%. Protestants are predicted to dip below 50% in the next two years for the first time since the foundation of our country.
3) To evangelize. Notice this is my third goal not my main mission here. I’ve encoutered atheists before online and you guys are very smart. But, when someone puts education and discovery and science above humility, obedience, and prayer and demands from God, I’ve notice people stop believing. The devil fell from grace because he did the same thing and demanded things from God. So, I’m here to learn and watch and remain a simple witness for the truth that I believe in.
To Eve:
The Catholic Church in general is about loving people. Sure, there are many bad apples in the bunch but that doesn’t destroy them all. We are about protecting the unborn child and keeping people centered on God. No child deserves to die in the womb for the sin of his father. If anyone should support the pro-life movement it should be atheists. After all, you only get one chance and then it ends according to what you believe?
I would support women’s ordination if Jesus would have ordained a woman at the Last Supper. Even His Mother (who we believe is without sin) was not ordained. None of the women there including her as well as Mary Magdalene were ordained. He had some of the best women and chose the men. Why? I think because men and women are to live different lives. Men can’t become pregnant. Women can’t get men pregnant. But together they accomplish something. In the Church, I view it like that. Men act as priests to minister the Sacraments, and women teach, pray, and work behind the scene. I firmly believe without my parish’s female secretary, the parish would fall apart.
I think the world is suffering from a lack of love. This is why people abuse children, murder, rape, and stop following God. This is my opinion and something I hope will change in my lifetime.
Thanks again for listening
28 June 2006, on 9:27 pm
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
There are many explanations for us non-believers who have studied psychology and anthropology and other social sciences. Most people are afraid to die and in order to cope with that fear many people create fantasies of denial of the inevitable. For some, they need the belief in a deity to counter feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness and hopelessness, and are seeking some supernatural ways to provide meanings for their lives and ways to outsmart death.
Delusion — Grandiose Type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity, or special relationship to a deity or famous person
28 June 2006, on 9:35 pm
Churchy McPreachalot said: Several famous scientists and writers found this out. Francis Collins, the Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, has gone from complete atheist to Christian.
AH HA HA HA! What did I say? Every conversion story. For more on this situation see PZ’s post at Pharyngula.
28 June 2006, on 10:37 pm
You go, Eve!
Yeah, talk to me about the Magdalen Laundries and how much they illustrated Catholic love.
28 June 2006, on 10:43 pm
Thanks for the link, JC. PZ was in top form when he wrote that one….
Most of his patients were probably religious (it’s a common affliction in America). So why is it “puzzling” that many were using their faith as a crutch, and why is he impressed that they weren’t railing against god? Did he also have a crop of atheist patients who died feebly, cussing out Jesus all the way down? That’s rather improbable, and I’m afraid I don’t believe him.
And dear gob, he was convinced by Mere Christianity? The “liar, lunatic, or lord” argument? Mere Christianity is a book that leaves atheists baffled at how anyone could find such drivel compelling—it’s a set of exceedingly weak excuses that believers find congruent with their preconceptions, but as a recruiting tool…man, it might sway a lunatic, and a liar might find it a useful tool, but lords need not apply.
Ha!
29 June 2006, on 2:36 am
Sorry, M, but you caught me in a bad mood.
Why? Give us one good reason why. You’re all part of the same propeller beanie cult. It’s just that somewhere along the way, you came to disagree on the color of the beanie and which way the propeller should spin.
Why? Give us one good reason why. Can you prove that a Methodist is a better human being than an atheist? I resent the very implication. I live my life by actual ethics, not lies written by dead desert nomads.
How is it obvious that he exists? Prove it. Will you still be saying he loves you when he gives you prostate cancer at 42 years old?
Hey, M, FUCK YOU. How is that for pride and love? You wouldn’t know love if it swam up and bit you on the ass. Are you going to explain to me how your religion tortured young women for years in the Magdalen Laundries in the name of your twisted idea of love? Or, like every other theist liar who comes by here, just avoid the hard topics altogether? Don’t tell me about how much I love, you self-righteous son-of-a-bitch. You don’t know me from fucking Adam.
And this means what, exactly?
You’re an idiot if you put anything above education, discovery and science. God demands that you remain an idiot? Good luck with that.
Here’s your loving Catholic church, M:
Genocide and persecution, admitted to by the church itself
Systematic sexual abuse of children
The Inquisition
The Crusades
Witch-hunts
Read a goddamn history book, or even a newspaper, you dumb fuck.
But you’re still a mysoginistic prick. Women make at best good secretaries, eh?
Your church has made abuse of children, murder and rape part of its doctrine for two thousand years. I hope it will die off in my lifetime. But I am not holding my breath.
Thanks again for proselytizing, you brainwashed piece of shit.
29 June 2006, on 2:53 am
I think the world is suffering from a lack of love. This is why people abuse children, murder, rape, and stop following God. This is my opinion and something I hope will change in my lifetim
“A disturbing fact continues to surface in sex abuse research. The first best predictor of abuse is alcohol or drug addiction in the father. But the second best predictor is conservative religiosity, accompanied by parental belief in traditional male-female roles. This means that if you want to know which children are most likely to be sexually abused by their father, the second most significant clue is *whether or not the parents belong to a conservative religious group with traditional role beliefs and rigid sexual attitudes*. (Brown and Bohn, 1989; Finkelhor, 1986; Fortune, 1983; Goldstein et al, 1973; Van Leeuwen, 1990). (emphasis in original)
……….”Sexual Abuse in Christian Homes and Churches”, by Carolyn Holderread Heggen, Herald Press, Scotdale, PA, 1993 p. 73
29 June 2006, on 9:05 am
If anyone is suffering from too much pride, it is the xians. They are proud of their humility, for kreissakes. Their bloated self-righteousness puffs up their chests with hot air. Hypocrisy and stupidity are the main tenets of their godma.
I’ve briefly checked out M’s and Tito’s sites and they are full of self-righteousness, insidious brainwashing, misogyny, homophobia, and self-pity. Self-pity? Why? Because Tito says they are living in a post-Christian era. Wow! If only that were true! I simply cannot see how people who are in a majority (xians) can feel persecuted.
Anyway, I liked that concept — a post-Christian era. That is my beautiful visualization for the day. But as Sean says:
Your church has made abuse of children, murder and rape part of its doctrine for two thousand years. I hope it will die off in my lifetime. But I am not holding my breath.
I’m hoping too, but I’m not holding my breath either. *sigh*
29 June 2006, on 10:00 am
would much rather to have someone a Methodist than an atheist.
M -
People like you, M are so screwed up in the head from religion you cannot even reason. My baptist niece and her pastorwannabe hubby believe that YOU are going to hell, plain and simple. They believe that catholics have it all wrong and only the baptists have it right. I have a friend who turned away from the catholic church because she believes it does not teach the truth and she sat in a sunday school group they invited us to attend when we were still xians and said to everyone in the group that she wanted her mother to be put on the prayer list because she was not a christian….her mother is a catholic. Catholics think they have it right, baptists think they have it right, pentecostals think you are both wrong, and so on and so forth for all the various xian cults…when in reality you are all fucked up!
If this life or death message was so damn important, wouldn’t this gawd make it a bit more clear about the content of the message? Why the fucking games if peoples’ “souls” are at stake?
Muslims chopping people’s heads off for gawd (they do follow the same gawd by the way), christians praying for help to kill muzzies…can’t you see that RELIGION is fucking up the planet? You gawd believers war with each other! Doesn’t that tell you something? You see no atheists saying they are going to invade a country and deconvert everyone, you don’t see atheists standing on street corners shouting out that your fucked up beliefs are a waste of time. We are here in blogland talking amongst ourselves and off and on a various type of xian comes by to preach the “absolute true” word of gawd and they all have a DIFFERENT VERSION of that “truth”, including yourself. Maybe you should all have a world conference and have gawd tell you ALL once and for all what the message is so you can at least proseltyze the same goddam thing.
I’m here first and foremost as an observer. What I’ve witnessed leads me to two conclusions about how we differ – an atheist (in general) does not know love and displays pride. I am basing this off of a general picture because some of you appear to be very kind and well-meaning people.
M – That is bullshit. You are here first and foremost to proseltyze with your self-righteous judgement and hatred. If you were here to observe, you can LURK like many other xians do.
How dare you sit and presume to know our feelings. I have a family who I love more than life itself. I love my husband and children dearly. I KNOW first hand what unconditional is. I never experienced anything from religion that even comes close. Being angry and lashing out at obnoxious self-righteous bigots like yourself does not mean an atheist does not love. We are here on our own atheist blog and you CAME HERE to antagonize, and you broke the rules despite saying you understood them. You LIED like all xians do. (I will stand here for Lya here and say M is a LIAR as well as a bigot.)
Sean said :
Your church has made abuse of children, murder and rape part of its doctrine for two thousand years.
Sean – and they like it that way because it brings the sorrows, pain, suffering, and death they are so in love and obsessed with.
29 June 2006, on 10:22 am
I think M needs to watch this in its entirety:
Atheist
29 June 2006, on 10:37 am
I think that the one engaging in excessive pride is M. He is particularly proud of his humility for kreissakes! I have briefly perused both M’s and Tito’s sites and they are filled with self-righteousness, hypocrisy, misogyny, homophobia, hate and fear. Where’s the love? Show me the love! I certainly don’t see it.
On Tito’s site, he apparently feels persecuted, because he says he is living in a “post-Christian era.” Wow! If only that were true! In fact, it is the opposite. When 80% of population claim to be Christian, how dare any one of them feel persecuted!
But, you know, I like that phrase “post-Christian era”. That will be my beautiful visualization for the day. A post-Christia era! Wonderful! I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, however. As Sean says:
Your church has made abuse of children, murder and rape part of its doctrine for two thousand years. I hope it will die off in my lifetime. But I am not holding my breath.
I can hope, yes, but I won’t be holding my breath either. *sigh*
29 June 2006, on 1:11 pm
I wonder how lion’s like catholic meat?
29 June 2006, on 2:45 pm
M: The Catholic Church in general is about loving people.
Give me a break. I grew up in a catholic country and have catholic relatives, friends, and co-workers. The RCC is about converting new catholics and keeping the current ones, just like any other church – as well as turning back “sinners” like openly gay people.
M: Sure, there are many bad apples in the bunch but that doesn’t destroy them all.
Unfortunately, it *does* taint them; the actual saying is “one rotten apple spoils the barrel.” The RCC is responsible for the bad apples as much as it’s responsible for the good ones. It can’t just cover them with flower pots and hope we don’t notice the stench. Or in the case of child-molesting priests, actually sheltering them from secular justice and hoping that confession, a couple of Hail Mary’s and lots of prayer will “fix” them so that the world at large won’t notice what they did.
M: We are about protecting the unborn child
At the expense of the fully born, fully formed, physically independent mother…
M: and keeping people centered on God.
Since you’ve failed to prove the existence of this god, this statement is irrelevant to me.
M: No child deserves to die in the womb for the sin of his father.
But a woman deserves to relive her rape each and every one of the nine months she has to carry that child if denied a safe, legal abortion; apparently *she* deserves to pay for the father’s sin.
M: If anyone should support the pro-life movement it should be atheists. After all, you only get one chance and then it ends according to what you believe?
It’s not a “pro-life” movement; it’s a forced birth movement. Your church forces women to go through with pregnancies and births even when they occur because of gang rape and/or it could cost them their health and/or lives.
Besides, you’re very mistaken if you think that all atheists are pro-choice; I, for example, consider myself pro-life in that I would encourage a woman to resort to anything other than abortion if at all possible. I fully support adoption. I believe that abortion should only be an absolute last-ditch medical resort for the good of the woman’s health, physical and/or mental.
However, legally and politically I remain pro-choice, because I know that the unborn child is a part of its mother’s body and as such, she is the only person on the face of the earth who has the right to decide whether to keep it or not. The arrogance and pride of those who think they have the right to dictate to someone else, even someone not of their church, what they should do with their own bodies sickens me.
M: I would support women’s ordination if Jesus would have ordained a woman at the Last Supper. Even His Mother (who we believe is without sin) was not ordained. None of the women there including her as well as Mary Magdalene were ordained. He had some of the best women and chose the men. Why?
This is irrelevant to me. I’m not catholic. All I know is that when I look at the catholic church, I see an institution that continues to deny women higher positions in its hierarchy, both governmental and liturgical.
M: I think because men and women are to live different lives. Men can’t become pregnant. Women can’t get men pregnant. But together they accomplish something. In the Church, I view it like that. Men act as priests to minister the Sacraments, and women teach, pray, and work behind the scene. I firmly believe without my parish’s female secretary, the parish would fall apart.
Again, this is irrelevant to me. I’m not catholic. All I know is that when I look at the catholic church, I see an institution that continues to deny women higher positions in its hierarchy, both governmental and liturgical – apparently, according to what you just said, simply because they belong to the gender that gets pregnant (never mind that nuns are celibate and thus don’t run into that roadblock). “We’ve got no problem with you ladies running the country, just so long as you don’t try to run the church!”
M: I think the world is suffering from a lack of love. This is why people abuse children, murder, rape, and stop following God.
I was in agreement with you until you included “stop following god.” You put that on a par with abuse, murder, and rape.
You’re implying that all the agnostics and atheists who blog on this site, for example, may just as well be abusers, murderers, and rapists because they stopped “following god.” I can assure you, sir, that I for one am none of those things. Those are crimes, just as likely to be committed by a long-time faithful catholic as anyone else. I have found just as moral, ethical, and loving people in the atheist/agnostic camp as in the theist. “Following god” does not automatically a decent human being make – or must I remind you that even Augustine believed that heretics should be killed for their beliefs? Sean already mentioned above many good examples of what the RCC calls “love.”
M: This is my opinion and something I hope will change in my lifetime.
M, don’t you see? You’re perfectly entitled to your beliefs, and if your church confined itself to preaching them and supporting its followers in keeping to them, I personally could care less what you guys did.
But the Roman Catholic Church *does not limit itself to its own followers.* Not only is it actively seeking to recruit *more* followers in order to swell its ranks, it is actively seeking to *force the entire world to conform to its beliefs and views.*
You say that you’re about “protecting the unborn child” and that “no child deserves to die in the womb for the sin of his father,” yet you make absolutely no mention of the *woman who owns the womb and therefore its contents.* What if I, a non-catholic, non-xian woman, were to get pregnant and decide to have an abortion? Even though I don’t belong to your church, your church would actively try to *force me to have that child,* despite my disagreement with your point of view.
The RCC, like most other religions, does not obey the bible’s command to keep to itself and let the secular world governments do their thing (Romans 13:1-7). It continues to infiltrate, dabble in, interfere, and attempt to change instead of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Those countries where its influence is strongest have uncontrolled population growth, rampant STD spread, soaring numbers of unwanted and teen pregnancies, covert civil rights violations, and abortion rates almost impossible to quantify because of
itstheir underground, back-alley, illegal nature. As I mentioned above, I grew up in a catholic country. I know whereof I speak. I too am relying on personal observation and experience.Do you really think that countries where in vitro fertilization has been banned due to pressure from the RCC (Costa Rica); where women suspected of having had abortions are forced to submit to government vaginal inspections, and if those exams are positive, are incarcerated for up to
2012 years (El Salvador); where federal medical centers perform vasectomies and tubal ligations on unknowing, unsuspecting, and therefore unconsenting men and women (Dominican Republic); are all better off than those where these atrocities do not take place?And in answer to all these downright counter-productive measures (reputable studies prove over and over again that contrary to what your church teaches, abortions *decrease* when the procedure is made legal), what does catholicism do? Saint a couple of locals to keep the natives happy! It can’t even be bothered to reward those countries that despite everything retain their loyalty to the church by electing a pope from their ranks.
29 June 2006, on 9:32 pm
Joni Mitchell’s “Magdalene Laundries”
I was an unmarried girl
I’d just turned twenty-seven
When they sent me to the sisters
For the way men looked at me
Branded as a jezebel
I knew I was not bound for Heaven
I’d be cast in shame
Into the Magdalene laundries
Most girls come here pregnant
Some by their own fathers
Bridget got that belly
By her parish priest
We’re trying to get things white as snow
All of us woe-begotten-daughters
In the steaming stains
Of the Magdalene laundries
Prostitutes and destitutes
And temptresses like me–
Fallen women–
Sentenced into dreamless drudgery …
Why do they call this heartless place
Our Lady of Charity?
Oh charity!
These bloodless brides of Jesus
If they had just once glimpsed their groom
Then they’d know, and they’d drop the stones
Concealed behind their rosaries
They wilt the grass they walk upon
They leech the light out of a room
They’d like to drive us down the drain
At the Magdalene laundries
Peg O’Connell died today
She was a cheeky girl
A flirt
They just stuffed her in a hole!
Surely to God you’d think at least some bells should ring!
One day I’m going to die here too
And they’ll plant me in the dirt
Like some lame bulb
That never blooms come any spring
Not any spring
No, not any spring
Not any spring
I understand why Sinead O’Connor ripped up the pic of the pope.
I saw that and must say I thought it was a hoot.