The End?
5 May 2006 by Eve
Since the subject was brought up…
Xian fascination with the subject of the “end times” is due mostly to the notorious The Revelation of Jesus Christ … unto his servant John, also known as Revelation, The Apocalypse of John, but most frequently (and incorrectly) as the Book of Revelations. Many xians don’t seem to realize that this was one of the most disputed books for inclusion in the orthodox xian bible (which as we all know – or should by now – did not descend from heaven complete and unedited in its present form to settle gently on a stone altar somewhere in Israel).
As wikipedia says:
Revelation is considered one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Protestant founder Martin Luther considered Revelation to be “neither apostolic nor prophetic” and stated that “Christ is neither taught nor known in it” [2].
In the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists’ heavy reliance on it. In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among “disputed” books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The main schools of interpretation that have sprung up around this single book are Biblical Prophecy, a second Biblical Prophecy, historical-critical, esoteric, aesthetic/literary, Ebionite/Essene/Primitive Church, and Patristic Interpretation. Within just the Biblical Prophecy school of thought exist the Preterist, futurist, historicist, spiritual/idealist, Catholic/Eastern Orthodox, Church of England, and Esoteric views. There’s even a Zodiacal Interpretation, considered “alternative” by those who adhere to the main schools.
As for the author of Revelation, the traditional view has been that John the Apostle wrote it; however, although this view “still has many adherences, many modern scholars believe that John the Apostle, John the Evangelist, and John of Patmos refer to three separate individuals. Certain lines of evidence suggest that John of Patmos wrote only Revelation, not the Gospel of John or the Epistles of John.”
If you read the four canonical gospels literally, Jesus seemed to promise and his disciples believe (as did Paul and the other xians in the New Testament) that the end times would occur before their deaths, “within their generation.” In the 100s, early church father Irenaeus was writing that next, contemporaries of Revelation’s author had believed they would see the Apocalypse by the end of Roman Emperor Domitian’s reign, which by Irenaeus’ time had come and gone (95-96 CE).
Among those who believe the end of times is still just around the corner stand Protestant fundamentalists, evangelicals, and Rastafarians (not to be confused with Pastafarians 
), who believe that Haile Selassie I was the messiah and is the one who will come for the second and last time on the day of judgment. “Members of more mainline and liberal churches tend to prefer the historical-critical and aesthetic approaches. Moreover, Roman and Orthodox churches have delimited their own specific positions on Revelation.”
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5 May 2006, on 7:38 pm
Please don’t let my comment here disrupt any intelligent discussion of Revelations. I think it’s the coolest of the bible books with all that death and pestilence and stuff. Ok, I’ve never actually read it, but please discuss amongst yourselves.
As a side note to this discussion, something that has always bothered me is the historical relevance of The Bible. What is it in the Bible that is historically important or accurate? I can see it as “literature” sort of like how future societies may study Robert Heinlen or Tolkien for insight into our time. I can also understand that within the deepest darkest vaults of The Vatican are secret documents and records that could be a treasure-trove of historical information.
Since I’ve never studied the Bible in any way, can someone give me the quick and dirty explanation of why it’s considered by some to be a study in history? Aren’t there better sources for this stuff?
5 May 2006, on 8:10 pm
Eve: you’re turning into our house bibbblical scholar.
Also, to those that ascribe to the silly “Left Behind” rapture crap: That’s no “ancient knowledge” or anything. That whacko stuff dates back only to the late 19th Century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
5 May 2006, on 8:17 pm
Hey, Randy, comment all you like; I’m equally cool with high-falutin’ as with down-and-dirty (often prefer it, to tell ya the truth). Just wanted to use as neutral a voice as possible in the piece itself.
R: Since I’ve never studied the Bible in any way, can someone give me the quick and dirty explanation of why it’s considered by some to be a study in history? Aren’t there better sources for this stuff?
In some cases, but since some branches of xianity today have inherited the point of view that god somehow dictated it word for word to the various writers, they approach it as the only primary source for human history period. You want to know how planet Earth came to be? Read Genesis 1. You want to know how the ancient Hebrews ended up in Canaan for both the first and second times? Read Genesis *and* Exodus. You want to know if Jesus actually existed and what was his life story? Read the four Gospels. You feel uncomfortable around gay people and want to know if that’s normal? Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
On the scholarly side, it seems that most of the scholars approaching it from this same point of view tend to be in the minority, and they usually hang with the fundamentalist-type side of xianity. I get the feeling that most biblical scholars in general realize the inherent difficulties with this approach and try to steer clear of it. Hope that kinda gives you an inkling…
5 May 2006, on 8:17 pm
Randy: is there any historical value to the bibble beyond the fact that it is an ancient book of stories? It has anthropological value in that sense.
It also has great value in the English language because of the beauty in the poetry of the King James Version. That translation and the works of Shakespeare have had more influence on English than any other writings.
Some interesting stuff about the competing minimalist and maximalist views of the bibble as history.
5 May 2006, on 8:23 pm
Sean: Eve: you’re turning into our house bibbblical scholar.
Look who’s talking, Mr. Left-Behind-and-minimalist/maximalist Links!
If we got any Muslim trolls, I’d be researching the Qu’ran; I mean, why take someone’s word for it when they might be wrong?
Good point about anthropological and literary value; the ancient texts in existence are also archaeological artifacts in addition to everything else.
5 May 2006, on 8:52 pm
Thank you Eve. I prefer to be a smart-ass about Christianity and Theism, but I do have very dear friends who are Christians so I try to at least see where they’re coming from. Unfortunately, I’m just not having any luck understanding their views except from the point of view of weak-willed mental illness. They’re smart and friendly and don’t care that I don’t believe so there must be more too it than that. Perhaps it’s just a simple explanation that people like myself are so damned independent and curious that theism doesn’t work for us. I’m the same way about “management” and “politicians” and all sorts of authority figures. I’m no anarchist by any means, it’s just “authority” that really raises my hackles.
Anyway, looking at Sean’s link:
only those points which are supported by archaeological discoveries
Just how much of the bible is supported by actual facts? Ignoring the literary value, what exactly is the anthropological value?
As far as I know, there’s ZERO proof of Jesus’ existence as described in the Bible. I’ve heard that “messiahs” were a dime-a-dozen back in those days and were regularly herded up and executed for whatever reason. And King David and King Saul? I’m exposing my ignorance here, but I always just assumed that they were real people. SURELY a kingdom has some sort of preserved works? You mean to tell me that not even those guys are real? WTF? Who the fuck believes this shit?
Furthermore, Is the existence of Israel based on some nonsense in the Bible that isn’t even backed-up by archeological facts? Get the fuck outta here! I honestly had no idea.
5 May 2006, on 9:20 pm
Why is Revelations so important? It is the fear factor! If I scare the shit out of you I can control you. Religion is about control. I have never liked to be told what to do without a reason. Can anyone give a LOGICAL reason to follow g0d? My question has always been ” Is there one FACT to support the concept of a g0d?”
5 May 2006, on 9:21 pm
Randy!: Just how much of the bible is supported by actual facts? Ignoring the literary value, what exactly is the anthropological value?
I think anthropologists value it because of the insight it gives them into the minds of the ancient Hebrews and early xians (but maybe I’m being hugely simplistic, I’m not sure).
Actual facts? You’re right, really tough call on a lot of points, especially when it comes to the New Testament. I’ve heard the same thing about Jesus and the other messiahs, and then there are the writings that diverge from the orthodox stuff so they didn’t get considered for inclusion in the bible – you know, the Gnostic gospels referred to in The Da Vinci Code, for example.
When it comes to the Old Testament – what I call the “juicy” part – there *is* archaeological proof of things like cities, landmarks, that sort of thing. There are actual ruins of Jericho, Sodom, and Gomorrah, for example, and obviously places like the Dead Sea, the Sea of Galilee, even the plain of Megiddo (aka “Armageddon”) also exist. I think there may be ruins with inscriptions on them referring to David; I’m not sure about Saul. And Jerusalem’s full of excavations of different eras and such.
As for Israel, I’m sorry; I was referring to the biblical Israel, which was one of the ancient Hebrew kingdoms (I’m rusty on this, but I think the other one was called Judea). And since the Old Testament is by and large the Jewish bible (along with other writings, but Lya would know more than I), it was and is used to support the founding and continuance of the modern country as well.
That whole area including Mesopotamia down to Egypt is the cradle of civilization, after all; last I looked, the ruins of Sumer in Iraq (according to Genesis, the location of Eden is somewhere in there – maybe) are the oldest in the world.
5 May 2006, on 9:28 pm
Sheesh, what a snoozer I pulled there; here’s a link to some basic info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Eastern_archaeology
5 May 2006, on 10:31 pm
My favorite critical view of the Apocalypse is the one by D. H. Lawrence. It influenced my own personal transition from quiet atheist to noisy one, actually, because it made me see for the first time the undeniably totalitarian strains of thought included in the bible.
Lawrence considers the Apocalypse to be the ultimate statement of political christianity (and of christian government): Utopia can be acheived on Earth via the waging of a cataclysmic holy war in which all non-christians are cast out, tortured, and destroyed. The end of the world is not something that christians fear, but something they look forward to as their time of triumph–and as their chance to take violent revenge on the unbelievers who doubted and mocked them.
It’s a scary and perceptive analysis.
6 May 2006, on 12:15 am
Thanks for bringin’ us back on topic, Sportin’ Life! I didn’t mean to bogart the thread.
6 May 2006, on 1:56 am
Eve:
Great post. Rumor has it that John of Patmos(John the Divine, whatever) was under the influence of either wormwood or muscaria (both hallucinogenics) at the time of writing. Of course, no 1 can prove that Johnny-boy even wrote the bloody thing.
Apocalyptic literature was rampant at the time anyways. There’s the Apocalypse of Peter, of Paul (the Ethiopian version has the gates of hell being flung open at the very, VERY end). They were the penny-dreadfuls of that era.
It’s fairly evident that it was all topical. Nero/Neron was the beast, ten hills, ten kings: all Roman. The preterists hold that all was fullfilled at the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.
It’s all drivel, of course, but it’s fascinating drivel nonetheless.
“It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.” – Thomas Jefferson – A discussion of the biblical book of Revelation in a letter to General Alexander Smyth 1825
6 May 2006, on 3:18 pm
There’s ten religious channels on Sky here in Britain, which I tune into occasionally when I feel like a laugh. I remember watching this guy explaining the timeline of Revelation, from Rapture through to the final battle. It got me thinking (purely hypothetically you understand.) Why would Satan bother? If it is preordained that he’ll be bound for a thousand years, free himself, fight Jee-sus-uh and all the saints and angels, and lose, and be bound again for all eternity, why bother? Why not say “Hic rapta, pro ludem militem!” then go off to some forgotten corner of the cosmos and allow God to take all our souls to heaven.
It’s like playing poker against someone with X-ray specs who can see you’ve got a crap hand. What is the point?
Unless…
Maybe Revelation only shows one version of the future. Maybe somewhere there’s an anti-Revelation which has Satan winning, and God is bound for all eternity!
Or…
Maybe it’s all a load of bollocks.
8 May 2006, on 12:33 pm
Thanks for the additional info, RA; the missionaries used to terrify us with this book when I was in school (Protestant fundamentalist). Only when I was able to stand outside the bible – and xianity – and look at it all from a distance did it all start to make sense as mythology, literture, and propaganda, for starters.
Jefferson lives!
8 May 2006, on 3:12 pm
Eve:
Thanks for the additional info, RA
De nada. I recall getting all religious post 9/11, reading the stupid thing, & getting freaked out over it.
I feel kinda silly admitting it now.
8 May 2006, on 3:27 pm
RA, I fortunately had gotten over Revelation and become more – I guess you could say deistic mostly – before 9/11, but back in grade school and as a preteen I was where you were then, so I kind of know how you felt a little. I still feel sort of sheepish about it, even though I was just a kid…
10 May 2006, on 4:00 pm
Eve:
Thanks for the kind words. Appreciated.
A bit off-topic, but I think it was ‘Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure’, where they go down into Hell, they look around, & 1 says: “Dude, our album covers LIED to us!”
Hehehehe.
10 May 2006, on 4:42 pm
RA, an appropriate comment given that my graphic for this post is the image from an album cover I “lifted” off Google Images…
10 May 2006, on 5:34 pm
Eve:
That’s pretty funny. What album cover is the image from?
11 May 2006, on 12:47 pm
The album’s “Revelation” by a band called Armored Saint; ever heard of it (it doesn’t ring a bell for me)?
15 May 2006, on 4:39 am
Maybe you will find this interesting: Revelations predicts (depending on interpretation naturally) the effective end of religion. (Chapter 18)
The name for the from God estranged religious organisations is “Babylon the Great” which is depicted as a whore because of her dealings with, and influence of, political power.
The prediction is that in the last of days a united political power will kill and destroy her completely, while business will be sad to see her go down because she was one of their beter clients.
Interesting point: The idear that true religion should be political neutral is made though out most of the greek scriptures (New Testament).
15 May 2006, on 5:57 pm
reluctant poster Says: Interesting point: The idear that true religion should be political neutral is made though out most of the greek scriptures (New Testament).
True; one of the bible verses I most love to quote back at xians is Titus 3:1: “Tell the people (xians) again to obey their rulers and governments, and to do what they tell them to do. Tell them to be ready to do any honest work (Worldwide English (New Testament)).”
12 May 2008, on 9:15 pm
I merely would like to respond to Eve’s request for someone to basically explain the relevance of believing in God, and also to comment to the skepticism expressed by all here, in respect to the “necessity” of BELIEVING in (as Deacon Barry commented) “jee-sus-uh”.
But first, may I address Deacon Barry?
SIR: This “je-sus-uh” whom you refer to, is the ONLIEST bearded clam in this ol’ world. Whether YOU choose to Idgakulate on Him, is rightfully your own decision.. but I prefer it in the END-uh. Shit will still be Poo-uh, standing in the GOP’s-uh presents-uh, and having to give A CUNT-UH, to a Stoli-uh Martini-uh, who is, indeed, HOT CARL-uh. Deacon Barry, I am perverted and would deepthroat any deacon.. a deacon is a SCHLONG-uh of God-uh, IN God’s CHURCH with the APPROPRIATE HOLY KNEE PADS. But I know little children, INTIMATELY, and NOTHING about GOATS- okay a LITTLE about GOATS, too, and even less about Vacuum Cleaners (the HOOVER)..and the HOOVER plugs in to the inflatable BBW-UH” as though it were DESIGNED-UH to do so- okay it WERE. AS GOD.. SKINs THE FLESH from unborn FRENCHMEN, HE CUMS. Here to provide a WET-NAP from our inevitable condiment STATION for a curious burning sensation, for things STOPPED UP since before CHRISTMAS, that MILK of MAGDALENESIA ALONE-uh can DISLODGE. He (Uggita-Buggita) doesn’t WANT you. GO to HELL. He actually wears cocaine around his neck to GET CRACKWHORES to play with HIM.
It isn’t that I disagree with forums where people express their thoughts and feelings, except I DO, I DO, I DO with all my heart wish NOBODY ever, ever DISAGREED with ME, because I AM RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT! And I will not BROOK DISSENT but only because I am really very small and terrified and hiding behind the curtain or in the closet or inside the carcass of this YAK. His Whore-ious free gift of nocturnal EMISSION-uh IS-uh so NOT premature. Whether they realize it or not, they TRULY ARE listening to JOURNEY.. by the end of it, they will have made a choice.. a decision.. to either KILL or MAIM Steve PERRY- who is, JESUS. It’s that simple.. simply “DON’T STOP BELIEVIN’” in the righteousness and validity of NEAL SCHON. It’s EVOLUTION, and it’s DEPARTURE, though some say differently. I SMELL like the CATCH of the DAY- usually LINT:
THE PLANE! THE PLANE! THE PLANE!
You see, folks, it doesn’t really matter whether Greil Marcus or Spin Magazine or ANY hipster doofus who happened upon Randy Jackson says otherwise because EVERY one knows, STEVE, NEAL, and JOURNEY, are SPIRITUALLY AWESOME!!!.. These MUST-uh be accepted, STRICKEN by faith. “If you choose NOT to decide, you still have made a choice. You CAN choose from PHANTOM FEARS and kindness that can kill. I will choose a PATH that’s clear. I WILL CHOOSE FREE WILL.” This is RUSH, not JOURNEY but RUSH is the John the Baptist to JOURNEY, you don’t have the RIGHT to listen to NAZARETH or LITTLE FEAT.. but it is our DUTY, as servants of JOURNEY, to warn you that AT THE END OF YOUR, er, TRIP through this life, (and we all know there IS at least an END TO IT eventually for us ALL), STEVE PERRY will be there to receive you with or without OPEN ARMS. (smile).. IF the JOURNEY turns out to be PLATINUM (such a thing would only be discovered of a certainty in BILLBOARD magazine), it would be FUCKING AYE AWESOME!!! and I think that YES is SATAN! Scary, scary, scary SATAN. Therefore, I IMPLORE you to use your privilege to VISIT your local RECORD STORE, CAREFULLY. and remember.. the A-SIDE of “WHEEL IN THE SKY”, is:
ANOTHER JOURNEY SONG!!!(smile)
I’m prancing around on a rainbow, thrusting my pie at the sky. I serve SOFT DRINKS to BUSINESSMEN, and I walk funny because of the FOUR BY FOUR post UP MY BUTT. JOURNEY gives us THEIR super-natural AURAL LOVE- that I must confess to misreading as ORAL LOVE in my day to day WITNESSING with BOOMBOX and RAINBOW SUSPENDERS. Excuse me, my DEPENDS is OVERFLOWING!
I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person. I’m not a good person.
JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!
JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!JOURNEY!!!
Teresa R. Lopiccolo
(Rideswithastorm/Godtube/Youtube).
12 May 2008, on 11:20 pm
Coward delusionals in the archives…this is supposed to be a closed comment…How’d we miss it? Leave it to the fundie trolls to sniff them out.