Oops
29 January 2006 by Bob
Police: Dead children laid side by side
Inside the home, the officers found the bodies of the children, ages 6 to 8, lying side by side on a bed, said Chris Brackett, an investigator with the Sevier County Sheriff’s Office. [...] A family priest who visited Mendez in a hospital Saturday night described a woman experiencing profound sorrow. “She has tremendous remorse. She is deeply sorry,” the Rev. Salvador Marquez-Munoz said Sunday before entering St. Barbara Catholic Church for Mass. “She asked for our prayers and forgiveness because she is realizing how much she has hurt the community, as well.” [...] He described her as a quiet, devout woman concerned about her children’s welfare. She was not working, and her husband was supporting the family with a job in New York, he said. She and the children never missed Sunday services and attended religious education classes.
Seeing these stories always makes me ask: “Hey, we’re really just skewing the data, right? I mean, there are just as many atheists going around killing kids in America, and we’re purposely not posting those stories — right?”
Yes, I’m sure that must be right. I’ll stop ignoring all of those other atheist-killing-kids stories, and make my postings balanced.
29 January 2006, on 10:37 pm
I remember reading that we make up 14% of the population of the USA but only 1% of the prison population. I’m gonna take a stab at guessing what we’re in prison for; mind altering drug use to escape the insanity of this xtian nation which is smothering us to death.
30 January 2006, on 12:34 am
Don’t you know that they are all devout xtians until they kill, at which point they were never true xtians after all?
You silly critical thinker!
30 January 2006, on 10:00 am
Manxome: Yes, you’re absolutely right. What was I thinking?
30 January 2006, on 10:17 am
So,I’ve been reading your site,and basically,all you do is mindlessly slam President Bush and God.So let me ask you something,you don’t belive in God,Therefore your an atheist,now,if theres no God then there’s no moral code,correct?and theres no room for criticism,right?because(within the atheistic worldview), President Bush and his southern accent is no less than retarded than you and your “God is 4 suckers” blog.You cant say anything about anyone,because (in your worldview) everything is equal,no one can criticize,no can even take praise for anything…how is one thing anymore praiseworthy than anything else?how is anything any more worth critisizing?…
30 January 2006, on 10:41 am
Trevor,
You are obviously not intelligent enough to play here. Get back in the sandbox where you belong.
Furthermore, what’s with all the fucking commas? Did you learn composition from a six-year old?
30 January 2006, on 11:01 am
Ok,then refute it Marcus…show me why/how I’m so unintelligent…
Furthermore,You’re still critisizing..
30 January 2006, on 11:09 am
Trevor,
Of course I’m critical, you are not worth rational conversation. Your prior post is proof enough that I need not “refute” you lack of intelligence. I know that you are blinded by your ego, but once you let go and embrace your imbecility, you may find your life is more bearable. Let go and know your place in this world. Be one with your foolishness. It is only then that you can be happy.
*snicker*
30 January 2006, on 1:04 pm
“So,I’ve been reading your site,and basically,all you do is mindlessly slam President Bush and God.”
So, you haven’t read the site at all then.
“So let me ask you something,you don’t belive in God,Therefore your an atheist,now,if theres no God then there’s no moral code,correct?”
goodness you’re a dipshit. You didn’t read shit on this site. If god is all that keeps you from breaking the law, your parents should have raised you better.
“because(within the atheistic worldview),”
There is not atheistic worldview. You clearly haven’t read a word of this site.
This is clearly over your head. Now, go sit in the corner and learn some proper grammar.
30 January 2006, on 1:05 pm
I think what Trevor is trying to say is basically that if humanity is left to create its own ethical standards, we are left with only three options to base ethics upon: 1) collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3) personal preference. Is there any I left out? What is the best standard?
30 January 2006, on 1:09 pm
I’m gald Dan speaks Stupid Theist. I’m glad I don’t.
The “morality” laid out in the bible is man made. If you follow it, you already follow the rules man made for himself. It’s just that those men attached a pretend divine influence to it knowing the shallow-minded and easily-led would be too scared or to uneducated to disagree. You know, “in case” there’s a hell to burn in.
Man is more educated now, but still not ready to put down the fairy tales. He already follows his own rules.
30 January 2006, on 1:44 pm
Me-“So,I’ve been reading your site,and basically,all you do is mindlessly slam President Bush and God.”
Lya-So, you haven’t read the site at all then.
Me responding-The name of the site is “God is for suckers,every single post demeans God”…what are you talking about?
Me-“So let me ask you something,you don’t belive in God,Therefore your an atheist,now,if theres no God then there’s no moral code,correct?”
Lya Kahlo-”goodness you’re a dipshit. You didn’t read shit on this site. If god is all that keeps you from breaking the law, your parents should have raised you better.”
Me-From what you’re saying,you haven’t thought much about the subject.If there is no God,then there is NOTHING that defines what is right and what is wrong;what is good, what is bad;what is praise-worthy,what is to be criticised.It’s not that God “keeps” me from breaking the law,its that God has set down laws and therefore there is such a thing as right and wrong.I choose to obey those laws of moral conduct because I am a christian.
Lya-”The “morality” laid out in the bible is man made. If you follow it, you already follow the rules man made for himself. It’s just that those men attached a pretend divine influence to it knowing the shallow-minded and easily-led would be too scared or to uneducated to disagree. You know, “in case” there’s a hell to burn in.
Man is more educated now, but still not ready to put down the fairy tales. He already follows his own rules.”
Me-You are borrowing from my christian worldview to justify your own.I believe in the bible and in God.I believe that the bible is God inspired,and that God used men to write it.Therefore, within my worldview the morality laid out in the bible is acceptable,justifiable,and laid down by God.
Now,within your worldview(which,by the way,there is such thing as an athiestic worldview,everyone has a worldview,if you want we can discuss that also)there is no God, so there is not even the possibility of God.In order for your above statement to have any validity for yourself,you have to presuppose God…
30 January 2006, on 1:47 pm
Lya and Marcus …how do you have patience for these morons over and over and over and over. C’mon look at this guy’s gibberish …could it possibly be worth 5 minutes of typing to throw and pebble and this brick wall. They wonder why we’re angry… I would love to see how much patience these people have. They can’t even handle it when the Wal-Mart greeter says, “Happy Holidays” instead of, “Merry xmas”.
Hey Trevor …here’s 2 seconds for you: Fuck off, get back to your job of mopping the bathrooms at McDonalds.
30 January 2006, on 1:53 pm
Humans are intelligent (most are anyway) and sentient beings who can understand the concept of right and wrong. Morality and ethics comes from this understanding and choosing to do right instead of wrong, this doesn’t need any stupid fairy tales beliefs. If the only reason someone does right is that they are afraid of some afterlife reprisal then they don’t have true morals to begin with. Also I’ve noticed that religious kooks tend to be amongst the most immoral and unethical hypocrites on the planet.
Also here are a couple of questions:
- you religious fools believe in a “soul” right ? What proof do you have for such a thing ?
- also you religious fools are always babbling on about hell (which of course doesn’t exist), how can something that is insubstantial (a soul) possibly burn ?? You do realize that fire is a chemical reaction, or don’t you ??
Remember religion is a crutch for the weak-minded.
30 January 2006, on 2:01 pm
Lya, out of curiousity, in your 7 years (or more) of studying religion (or theology, or whatever, I forget what exactly), didn’t any of the language ever rub off on you? Was you like a skeptic trying to understand, or was you a believer that became skeptical. Or none of the above?
30 January 2006, on 2:14 pm
EoR
As you know, I have no physical proof of having a soul, if you want to know what convinces me personally (I doubt you do) it is the very fact that I am sentient. I exist and am aware of that fact. Not good enough for you perhaps, but it wholly satisfies millions of people.
As far as Hell goes, well there is no eternal Hell mentioned in the original greek manuscripts of the old and new testaments. The flame is not literal to begin with, but simply a metaphor for purification. If you recall, the ancients used sulpher in their incense to purify, hence the analogy to fire and brimstone.
http://georgiagulfsulfur.com/history.htm
30 January 2006, on 2:15 pm
Trevor, what makes you certain that the Bible is “God”’s moral code? Why don’t you believe that Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism or any other religion constitutes the true path to “Heaven”?
30 January 2006, on 2:33 pm
In response to-
“Humans are intelligent (most are anyway) and sentient beings who can understand the concept of right and wrong. Morality and ethics comes from this understanding and choosing to do right instead of wrong, this doesn’t need any stupid fairy tales beliefs. If the only reason someone does right is that they are afraid of some afterlife reprisal then they don’t have true morals to begin with. Also I’ve noticed that religious kooks tend to be amongst the most immoral and unethical hypocrites on the planet.”
You obviously havent read anything I’ve said,I’m not saying “the only reason someone does right is that they are afraid of some afterlife reprisal”.I’m saying(and I hope everyone will get it this time)if there is no God then there is nothing that defines a moral code.There is nothing that says whether me raping and killing an 8 year old girl is wrong or right(within your worldview).Maybe its wrong for you but its not wrong for the person who doesnt want to spend 20 years in the pen for it.
Your questions are irrelevant to the subject but I will answer them.In regard to the soul:first of all,the soul fits in my worldview,and I believe that there’s a body and a soul.If I was an atheist then I wouldn’t have an answer for the soul either,but,being a christian I can easily explain it thru the bible(since I believe that everything in the bible is true).Now,how do you explain emotions,logic,and(bringing it back to subject) morals??I believe that God set these things in place at the beginning of time.In regard to “babbling on about hell”,the bible is not talking about a physical burn,its talking about a spiritual concept of punishment.Your soul isn’t going to float in a flame for eternity.It’s more like the most powerful feeling of guilt and shame,for eternity.
30 January 2006, on 2:38 pm
I’m saying(and I hope everyone will get it this time)if there is no God then there is nothing that defines a moral code.There is nothing that says whether me raping and killing an 8 year old girl is wrong or right(within your worldview).
Why, exactly? What’s the argument here, and where are the reasons? Further, if the gap for values is that much of a problem if there is no god, then how exactly does the appeal to god solve that problem? If the gap’s that bad, it would seem that bad for anything, including god.
Just wondering…
30 January 2006, on 2:39 pm
“good”, then you are shallow and have a frighten lack of ethical fiber.
“It’s not that God “keeps” me from breaking the law,its that God has set down laws and therefore there is such a thing as right and wrong.I choose to obey those laws of moral conduct because I am a christian.”
No, you chose to obey them because someone convinced you that if you don’t, you’ll be torture forever. Or because you’ve been brainwashed with it since birth. God didn’t set down shit. God doesn’t exist.
Dipshit: “You are borrowing from my christian worldview to justify your own.”
Bullshit, you flat out liar. This very basic concept existed long before xianity.
“I believe in the bible and in God. “I believe that the bible is God inspired,and that God used men to write it.”
I’m sorry.
“Therefore, within my worldview the morality laid out in the bible is acceptable,justifiable,and laid down by God.”
And there’s absolutely NOTHING in the xian worldview that wasn’t stolen from older civilizations and older gods.
“Now,within your worldview(which,by the way,there is such thing as an athiestic worldview,everyone has a worldview,if you want we can discuss that also)”
Strawman. I didn’t say I don’t have a worldview. I said there’s not atheist worldview.
“there is no God, so there is not even the possibility of God.”
Lie. Can you do anything but lie?
“In order for your above statement to have any validity for yourself,you have to presuppose God…”
This makes absolutely no sense at all.
30 January 2006, on 2:40 pm
“Lya Kahlo-”goodness you’re a dipshit. You didn’t read shit on this site. If god is all that keeps you from breaking the law, your parents should have raised you better.”
Dipshit-From what you’re saying,you haven’t thought much about the subject.”
Seven years of religious study and you dipshits still tell me I haven’t thought much on the subject. Once again, you clearly haven’t read a word of this site. Or is it that just don’t comprehend it?
“If there is no God,then there is NOTHING that defines what is right and what is wrong;what is good, what is bad;what is praise-worthy,what is to be criticised.”
This is obviously bullshit. Man created god, therefore man created the rules. Man already decided what is right, wrong, etc. This knowledge existed before god and it will exist after. So, if the threat of hell or the promise of heaven is all that keeps you “good”, then you are shallow and have a frighten lack of ethical fiber.
30 January 2006, on 2:40 pm
ok,I just read Dan’s comments and totally agree,I’m kind of tired(its late here),but I’ll try to respond tommorow to whoever bashes me during the night…i’m only 14..so maybe that is an explanation for my lack of knowledge in regard to everything,but Dan seems to have it…ok,so long,it was fun!
Trev
30 January 2006, on 2:41 pm
“Dipshit responding-The name of the site is “God is for suckers,every single post demeans God”…what are you talking about?”
My point, Dipshit, is that none of it is mindless. Which you’d know if you’d actually read the site.
We know you’re only 14. Your “arguments” are flaccid, uninformed and pedantic.
30 January 2006, on 2:44 pm
lya-I’m not scared of afterlife because im going to heaven…
Man created the laws of morality,correct?so which man was this?voltaire?rousseau?hitler?billy graham?dali lama?…how could man have created the moral code…everyone disagrees(this argument proves that fact)…if man created morals…there would be too many,i would understand you more if you thought there was no morals at all..but to say that man created them????????
30 January 2006, on 2:45 pm
“Lya, out of curiousity, in your 7 years (or more) of studying religion (or theology, or whatever, I forget what exactly), didn’t any of the language ever rub off on you?”
Seven years of studing religion under the supervision of a preist and a rabbi – both times with the original intention of converting. I speak (or spoke, rather) Hebrew, if that’s what you’re asking.
” Was you like a skeptic trying to understand, or was you a believer that became skeptical. Or none of the above? ”
I was a waning believer trying to hold on to my faith. I started off a non-believer (as a child), came to believe (as a teenager/early 20’s), and then regained my sanity. I wanted to believe. I tried to believe.
30 January 2006, on 2:52 pm
“lya-I’m not scared of afterlife because im going to heaven…”
*sighs* Poor deluded and lied to child.
“Man created the laws of morality,correct?so which man was this?voltaire?rousseau?hitler?billy graham?dali lama?”
Strawman. Nowhere did I say it was one specific man. To clarify: HUMANS created the laws.
“how could man have created the moral code”
How could he not? Humans are social creatures. We need (or needed) each other to survive. If you do things to harm the group you are potentially ending the possibility to survive. That which was not conducive to survival of the group is now “immoral” or better yet “illegal”.
“…if man created morals…there would be too many,”
Aside from the fact that is a moronic statement – “god” has 600+ laws. Is that not “too many”?
“i would understand you more if you thought there was no morals at all..but to say that man created them????????”
I fail to see how this is so confusing.
And your asinine statement about raping the child is there were no god. Don’t priests do this all the time? The bible is stuffed full of god murdering whole groups of people – which includes children. Your fake god is the biggest pyschopath of all.
30 January 2006, on 3:02 pm
“…if man created morals…there would be too many,”
Aside from the fact that is a moronic statement – “god” has 600+ laws. Is that not “too many”?
maybe i should have said “If man created a moral code…”.Yes God does have 600+ laws but they all fit in to the moral code that he set in place.
Ok,if “humans set the moral code in place” when and where did we all agree what was right and what was wrong??
30 January 2006, on 3:06 pm
whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…
30 January 2006, on 3:06 pm
Poor little Trevor, only 14 and already completely brainwashed. If you really believe everything in the bible is correct then I suggest you read this site VERY careful – http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm
Then explain how you reconcile of all the internal inconsistencies, inconsistencies with known science and all of the sick twisted evil crap in there.
“the bible is not talking about a physical burn,its talking about a spiritual concept of punishment”
For crying out loud, you don’t believe that and you know it. Burning means fire not “Spiritual punishment”, if it didn’t then hell wouldn’t always be depicted as a fiery place with the horned red guy and the pitchfork. When faced with an obvious inconsistency in your beliefs you try to change stuff. Now of course none of this crap is real, sentience is a result of biology and evolution NOTHING more and when you die you’re dead, gone, finished, just like a burnt out light bulb. These are the cold hard facts. Most living beings which are at all self-aware don’t want to die because that’s a complete loss of self but that’s life and not facing the facts is stupid and changes absolutely nothing.
30 January 2006, on 3:08 pm
I have a moral code(the bible) that tells me whats right and whats wrong…for you theres nothing conlcusive that tells you what is morally acceptable
30 January 2006, on 3:10 pm
these are facts eh?evolution is a fact?have you ever heard of iredusably complexity if you can explain that..i rest my case(truly)…since when did things that “were always depicted” become truth and fact???
30 January 2006, on 3:11 pm
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”
So you would advocate murdering people who don’t agree with your deluded dumbass world view ?? YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE !! Atheists generally don’t advocate violence at all so you just helped to show that we atheists have the true morals and you religious bastards do not.
30 January 2006, on 3:12 pm
Hey hypocrite trevor,
Have you ever heard of a spellchecker ? Have you ever heard of grammar ?
30 January 2006, on 3:14 pm
This is addciting…
“Then explain how you reconcile of all the internal inconsistencies, inconsistencies with known science and all of the sick twisted evil crap in there.”
Back to my orginal statement,YOU CANT SAY THAT ITS EVIL…how is it evil?if its evil for you how is it any more or less evil for the next guy?WIthin the athiestic worldview you cannnot,i say again, cannot define what is evil…nothing can define it except a metephysical,supreme being
30 January 2006, on 3:18 pm
maybe i should have said “If man created a moral code…”.Yes God does have 600+ laws but they all fit in to the moral code that he set in place.”
Man did create a moral code. Plenty of them. And of course the laws all fit moral code. What would be the point otherwise?
“Ok,if “humans set the moral code in place” when and where did we all agree what was right and what was wrong?? ”
We don’t agree what is right and what is wrong – ESPECIALLY when religion factors into it. For some Muslims it’s perfectly okay to murder a female relative that has been raped, because she’s injured the family’s honor. For some, murder is perfectly acceptable during wartime. For some a couple of cells in a uterus deserves rights, but not the woman in whose uterus the cells reside. For some a 2 millennia old book full of mythologies cannabilized from older civilizations and full of little more than murder, mayhem and preaching is a great guide to life in the 21st century. For others, it’s an entirely different book of mythologies – with different rules.
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”
What the fuck does Bin Laden and Rwanda have to do with atheists? Please dazzle us with the depths of your ignorance and bigotry.
“I have a moral code(the bible) that tells me whats right and whats wrong…for you theres nothing conlcusive that tells you what is morally acceptable”
How many times do you need to be proven wrong, little boy?
“Back to my orginal statement,YOU CANT SAY THAT ITS EVIL…how is it evil?”
Ah so murder, rape, slavery, mysogyny – these are all not evil to you? Sick.
“WIthin the athiestic worldview you cannnot,i say again,”
And I say again THERE IS NO FUCKING ATHEIST WORLDVIEW. Reading comprehension is not your strong point, is it.
“nothing can define it except a metephysical,supreme being ”
SO nothing can define good and evil except a being that doesn’t exist. What lovely logic.
30 January 2006, on 3:21 pm
“…since when did things that ‘were always depicted’ become truth and fact???”
Isn’t this the exact opposite of what you’re arguing, Trevor? The Bible has always beend depicted as the word of God, and therefore it is believed to be a holy scripture containing a moral compass.
30 January 2006, on 3:26 pm
“Back to my orginal statement,YOU CANT SAY THAT ITS EVIL…how is it evil?”
Ah so murder, rape, slavery, mysogyny – these are all not evil to you? Sick.
You’re not understanding what im saying…when i said “how is it evil?”i meant”how can it be evil from an athestic point of view??”.You just admitted to all of us that “We don’t agree what is right and what is wrong” so “muder rape mayhem etc.” might me be bad for you but fine with someone else..you said it yourself!!I totally agree that murder and rape is evil…I have a moral code…you don’t…
30 January 2006, on 3:34 pm
“these are facts eh?evolution is a fact?have you ever heard of iredusably complexity if you can explain that..i rest my case(truly)…”
Wow. You really are young and clueless. Irreducibly Complexity is routinely refuted by real scientists. And yes, evolution is fact.
“since when did things that “were always depicted” become truth and fact??? ”
Since all those paintings of a white jesus, I would think.
30 January 2006, on 3:37 pm
Hypocrite trevor,
“I totally agree that murder and rape is evil…I have a moral code…you don’t…”
That’s a lie, you just suggested that massacre would be right for you if the “humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow” (message #26). You do not understand the concept of morality and your only code is that which is written in some primitive tome of garbage and that definitely is NOT a moral one. I suspect that within no more than a decade you will be involved and some sort of criminal behavior considering your insane and highly corrupt extremist views.
30 January 2006, on 3:40 pm
Your exactly right,Jesus was most likely of a middle-eastern complexion,not white.So the depictions are untrue…Do you even know what irreducible complexity is?I can happily explain it to you.Also,where are your real scientists reports that refute it..?
30 January 2006, on 3:41 pm
Actually, little boy, it’s you who doesn’t understand. I have already explained this. If you head is that far up your ass, that’s not my problem.
How about a little story from my Torah study days:
A man and his rabbi are discussing atheists. The two see another man struggling to load up a cart. The rabbi says: “Take that man there, a religious man says ‘look at that poor man struggling, I will pray for him.” An atheist says, “look at that poor man struggling, I must help him.”
“You just admitted to all of us that “We don’t agree what is right and what is wrong” so “muder rape mayhem etc.” might me be bad for you but fine with someone else..you said it yourself!!”
That’s absolutely right. Religions in particular do not agree – which is why they spend so much time killing each other, and any one else they feel like.
“I totally agree that murder and rape is evil…I have a moral code…you don’t… ”
No, you have a book and your delusions. And since you don’t know jack shit about me, you’re also a liar.
If this is the future of this country, I’m moving now.
30 January 2006, on 3:42 pm
This may be hard for you to understand but the fact that we do not have a moral code does not mean that we do not have morals. For atheists to have a moral code, we would need to have an atheistic worldview, which we don’t. Unlike religions, atheism is not a uniting belief. We do not come together because we think homosexuality is wrong, human sacrifice is acceptable, or that we can do no wrong that cannot be reversed simply by believing in a man that supposedly died 2,000 years ago. Atheism is simply the opinion that there is no invisible man waiting to punish us.
I have morals because I know that this what I see is all that I have. I have no chance to make amends while my body stiffens and decomposes in a coffin. If I want to have a good life, I have to make this place the best that I can. My only moral is this: Do as little harm as possible.
30 January 2006, on 3:43 pm
“Do you even know what irreducible complexity is?I can happily explain it to you.Also,where are your real scientists reports that refute it..? ”
*LOL* Oh this is the funniest shit I’ve seen yet. A 14 year old having the gall to assume he knows more than anyone else. It’s not my job to do your research for you. Behe, Demski, Hovind and all those other morons are routinely refuted by real scientists.
Start with talkorigins.org. And read a book not written xian loonies.
30 January 2006, on 3:44 pm
EoR-what is your code?what defines it?your twisting what im saying(or i’m not communicating cleary,which im sorry if thats the case) I never said it would be right for me if atheistic thought continues to grow.
What im saying is if athiestic thought,which says(from your very own lya kalah) “we dont agree on what is right and what is wrong”, continues there will be nothing to say stop massacres,rape,muder etc.
30 January 2006, on 3:46 pm
LOL…you obviously dont know what irredubly complexity is…or you would explain it to me…AHAH…
30 January 2006, on 3:47 pm
“What im saying is if athiestic thought,which says(from your very own lya kalah) “we dont agree on what is right and what is wrong”, continues there will be nothing to say stop massacres,rape,muder etc. ”
Lya Kahlo, dipshit. First, I didn’t say atheistic thought says anything. You’re lying YET AGAIN. And there isn’t anything to stop those things. In fact, religion supports, excuses and justifies massacre, rape etc.
30 January 2006, on 3:47 pm
“I totally agree that murder and rape is evil…I have a moral code…you don’t…”
You don’t have a moral code, you have deeply indoctrinated brainwashing. You absorb nothing of what is said to you and continue to spout tired lines like “there is no morality without gawd” or that “you atheists share a worldview without morality.” How much more simply can we explain this to your stunted intellect? As atheists, what defines us can best be summarized as the lack of a unified worldview. Conversely, members of religion can be defined by their unified worldview. That’s why Pastor Hank has his denomintation and Reverend Jim-Bob has his, etc. The point is, by freeing ourselves of this imaginary shackle, we are free to explore the riches of life and create a sense of meaning for ourselves. Most atheists I know have a deeply developed sense of morality because it is one they had to arrive at through personal reflection and life experience. They didn’t arrive at through regurgitating tired religious dogma.
30 January 2006, on 3:47 pm
*irreducible complexity
30 January 2006, on 3:48 pm
“LOL…you obviously dont know what irredubly complexity is…or you would explain it to me…AHAH… ”
If you knew how to read, you’d see I gave you a link that both explains and refutes it. This is like talking to a retarded brick wall. Why is it so entertaining?
30 January 2006, on 3:54 pm
Little hypocrite trevor,
Your statement in message 26 says that you feel if “humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow” that massacre would become right in America. This is a hateful and intolerant statement which suggests that if your beliefs start to decline then fanatics will kill atheists in order to preserve their delude beliefs. Also you are a christian fanatic whether you think so or not, if you weren’t you wouldn’t promote such an extremist view.
P.S. you should be more concerned about learning the rules of the English language than you are with backward-assed primitive beliefs then maybe you would communicate better.
30 January 2006, on 3:55 pm
King Retard – excellently put
30 January 2006, on 4:25 pm
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”
So you obviously have not seen the pictures of the Christian PRIESTS wielding machetes and cutting down innocent refugees. I thought not…
The fact that you cling to the idea of “irreducible complexity” as evidence against the theory of evolution shows that you yourself have no concept of what it entails or how micro/macro evolution occurs. Heck, you can’t even spell it. Since you seem incapable of following the links to information on the subject given, I’ll give you a short disproof of irreducible complexity.
Claim: The eye is a perfect organ. It is so complex that it is impossible that it could have resulted through the gradual process of mutation and natural selection. What good is “half of an eye” anyway?
The Truth:
First off, the eye is far from perfect. It is indeed a wonder to behold, but far from perfect (the blood vessels in your eye are placed in front of the retina, thus casting shadows and degrading vision quality).
Secondly, a “half of an eye” is very useful indeed. The most primitive sort of eye, such as the type found on the paramecium that you study in high school biology, is simply a cluster of light sensitive cells. This allows an organism to avoid light or dark places, or to detect the shadow cast by a predator.
So, what happens if by a happy mutation that little patch of light-sensing cells is deformed into, say, a concave shape? Well now the organism is possession of this novel new trait is able to roughly detect the direction in which a light source located, increasing its ability to seek more favorable surroundings.
From this point, you should be able to see how we get from this primitive “cup” eye to what we have today.
Oh, and hello everyone. Great blog, I loved reading it.
30 January 2006, on 4:25 pm
I’ve been reading the comments and am struck by one thing. Nobody has really answered the question of moral absolutes. Was Hitlers Germany wrong? If so why? If not why not? Trevor (however roughly stated) has raised some very legitimate questions.
30 January 2006, on 4:34 pm
I,have,to,get,ready,for,work,but,will,definitely,be,back,to,catch,up.
Forgive,my,comma-tose,state.
30 January 2006, on 5:02 pm
I was going to say that I was somewhat like trevor at his age (just a few years ago), but then I read further into what he says and damn, I was much smarter at that age. What the fuck trevor?? You’re playing the stereotypical teenage idiot role. Be a little more fucking self aware and aware of the world around you, people like you are the reason people of our age group are automatically assumed to be immature idiots. This guy is the fucking reason I can’t get a damn ounce of respect unless through the anonymity of the internet. Bastard.
“LOL…you obviously dont know what irredubly complexity is…or you would explain it to me…AHAH…”
Trevor… kill yourself please. Since you won’t apparently click on the fucking link Lya provided I’ll go a few more steps and provide you with a more direct link, note that if you don’t click the fucking link and post another LOL.. you don’t know what “irrudubly” complexity post you will be ignored.
THE LINK FOR “IRREDUBLY” COMPLEXITY: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
30 January 2006, on 5:10 pm
Not to evoke godwins law, but that whole “we gotta massacre the atheists” shit sounds a bit hitlerish doesn’t it?
30 January 2006, on 5:11 pm
“I remember reading that we make up 14% of the population of the USA but only 1% of the prison population.”
I researched this very thing, and found the data to be skewed and unusable. This is why:
First, the amount of people that consider themselves atheist in the US is a mere 0.4%. 5% of the US population feel that God does not exist, but not all are atheists. Granted, this article discusses the problem categorizing atheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Atheism_in_the_United_States
As for prison stats in the US, the data does not reflect religious views before incarceration. It reflects it after incarceration. As has already been asserted on this blog, there is a lot of evangelizing going on behind prison doors. Couple this with the fact that in order to make early parole, an inmate must show they have changed. What is the easiest way to change? Become “saved”.
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
Another example of why these figures are skewed, before analysis of these numbers is examined, all of this has to be broken down by many other factors first. Race, education, affluence etc. I have noticed that atheists tend to claim more intellect than theists. If this is true, one must assume that they are better educated. This leads one to believe that affluence is on the atheist’s side. So let’s take a look at the stats for the demographics in our prisons.
http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/prisons/pris97.txt
These are not the educated or the affluent incarcerated, but quite the opposite. Being an atheist is correlated to socio-economic qualities — high education, affluence, professional success — that make one less likely to end up in prison, NOT a higher sense of “morality”. This is a fallacy that if you choose to believe, you are deluding yourself and others whom would think you to be rational.
30 January 2006, on 5:19 pm
Dan, we don’t agree on certain things, but I love the way you argue.
Trevor, model dan’s behavior NOW!!
30 January 2006, on 5:25 pm
Dan-”These are not the educated or the affluent incarcerated, but quite the opposite. Being an atheist is correlated to socio-economic qualities — high education, affluence, professional success — that make one less likely to end up in prison, NOT a higher sense of “morality”. This is a fallacy that if you choose to believe, you are deluding yourself and others whom would think you to be rational.”
I would think that it is not socio-economic qualities that correlate to incarceration ratios in prisons (though it is generally accepted that white, rich individuals are more likely to “get off” easily) but rather it is the choices that individuals make. These choices result from each individual’s sense of morality. If a person is moral (ie doesn’t commit homicide) then that person is not going to prison and is free to become a successful, contributing member of society. Socio-economic status is a result of morality, not the other way around.
In other words the relationship can be given as this: Atheists are underrepresented in prisons because they are more moral that your average Joe. Because they are more moral (and not locked up behind bars for 10 years) they are able to become more educated and wealthy.
30 January 2006, on 5:36 pm
How about this, at least 14% of Americans don’t believe in religious fairy tales. It’s probably higher but many people don’t want to admit this because it’s still not a popular belief (and who’s fault is that ? Theists, primarily christians).
“Being an atheist is correlated to socio-economic qualities — high education, affluence, professional success — that make one less likely to end up in prison, NOT a higher sense of “morality””.
A higher sense of morality (real morality not religious crap) doesn’t make on less likely to commits crimes and end up in prison ?? That doesn’t make a damn bit sense and sounds like a lame excuse for religion. Also how do you explain corporate and political crooks most of whom have high education, affluence and professional success ??
Also saying that being an atheist is correlated to these qualities suggests that atheists are generally smarter that theists and I won’t argue with that.
30 January 2006, on 5:39 pm
“Burning means fire not “Spiritual punishment”, if it didn’t then hell wouldn’t always be depicted as a fiery place with the horned red guy and the pitchfork.”
OK, if you do the exhaustive study on the greek septugant (incidentally, the “original Hebrew” texts were translated FROM the septugant in 900 AD) and the in depth study into the quetion of hell that I did, you can discuss this issue. However, I know you don’t have a clue what you are talking. Hell as the catholics and fundies know it today was developed in the 5th century. I didn’t change it, they did.
30 January 2006, on 5:42 pm
“How about this, at least 14% of Americans don’t believe in religious fairy tales.”
How about 100% of Dan don’t believe your 14% fairy tale. Show me the data please.
30 January 2006, on 5:46 pm
As for prison stats in the US, the data does not reflect religious views before incarceration. It reflects it after incarceration.
Just wanted to say good job on the heads-up, Dan. You’re absolutely right to worry about just these things. But you also might want to take a look at the World Christian Encyclopedia (and some other source that I can’t remember at the moment). To my knowledge, there actually have been stats that do adjust for inside-conversion (and when you think about it, it wouldn’t take all that much to do it), and the numbers are still higher inside than outside.
But, regardless, the claims made by these stats aren’t supposed to mean that atheists are somehow saints or anything. (I don’t know what exactly would show that.) It’s just supposed to show that the claims of believers (”with no god, you’re more likely to do bad shit”) are just false. Anything other than those claims, I leave as open.
Another example of why these figures are skewed, before analysis of these numbers is examined, all of this has to be broken down by many other factors first. Race, education, affluence etc. [...] Being an atheist is correlated to socio-economic qualities — high education, affluence, professional success — that make one less likely to end up in prison, NOT a higher sense of “morality”.
I think one could grant a lot of this here. But I’d also add something important — i.e., that, given these comments, it seems to undermine much, if not all, of what theists worry about when it comes to what makes a person “moral.” If these explanations make any sense, then the specific notion of god “securing” some kind of moral motivation doesn’t really factor-in as important any longer. Other stuff can take care of whatever variables seem to be on the table for the claims.
30 January 2006, on 5:49 pm
Who cares how it was depicted in 900 CE ? This is certainly how it’s depicted *now* by fundies. Are the people who made the statements about it not being burning but “spiritual punishment” in the 10th century or the 21st ? Another damned theist diversionary tactic.
Also religion has changed a lot for something that so many fools claim to be the inspired words of their fantasy god. Heck back in Galileo’s time the craplic church advocated that the earth was the center of the universe and burned Galileo’s books so they wouldn’t hear otherwise. Obviously that belief hasn’t been held for a while now, why ? Because of scientific progress that’s why. Some things are too much for even the fundies to argue in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence.
30 January 2006, on 6:15 pm
I say we start a collection and higher a deprogrammer for this kid. I kind of feel sorry for him.
30 January 2006, on 6:20 pm
“It’s just supposed to show that the claims of believers (”with no god, you’re more likely to do bad shit”) are just false.”
Believe it or not, I would tend to agree with that notion to a point. My scource for that statement is none other than the text of the New Testament, where Paul is arguing to the Jews that “when Gentiles who have no Law obey by natural instinct the commands of the Law, they, without having a Law, are a Law to themselves; since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their heart…”. I don’t usually like to quote here, but it agrees with your point. I won’t argue with you from these quotes, but I will agree with you with them.
30 January 2006, on 6:59 pm
Perhaps I’m wasting my time, but here’s my take on morality in a world without gods:
There is some truth to the notion that there is no natural, individual concept of right or wrong in a godless world. If I was a self-sustaining individual living in a remote forest all by myself, without any human contact whatsoever, what would be good for me are those items which helped me to survive, and what would be evil would be those things which harmed my chances of survival. However, NO ONE LIVES THIS WAY. We are a social species – outside of the extremely few people that live as solitary hunter-gatherers in the wild, the rest of humanity needs other people to survive. And of course, to reproduce, since it is unlikely that you will survive by yourself into old age without someone else to look after you.
If you doubt that we are all dependent on others to survive, think of your daily life. Who provides the electricity that powers the machines (refrigerator, light bulbs, computer etc) that make your life easier? Who provides/maintains the public plumbing system that keeps your environment free of waste-born diseases? Who grows the food that you buy at the supermarket? Who makes the clothes that you wear? The rest of society, that’s who. We are totally dependent on other people, on society at large, to live and survive. And thus it becomes very simple — if we wish to take advantage of what others in our society has to offer, we agree to relinquish a few of our freedoms so that EVERYONE can prosper.
Morals are an outgrowth of living together with others. The Golden Rule (which predates the Christian religion btw) is a useful moral compass to use when dealing with others in a community/society of people. It’s very simple (I don’t murder Dan because I would not want him to do the same to me, etc). Granted, the golden rule itself has faults, i.e. we wouldn’t want someone who enjoys inflicting pain upon himself to follow the golden rule. Thus there are other rules, such as the principle of non-coercion, which may apply better in certain situations. To a large degree, the bulk of man-made laws are derived from these two principles and derivatives thereof.
Now, you might ask, wouldn’t it be in MY best interests if everyone else followed the golden rule and I did not? It probably would. Luckily for you, I am endowed with the ability to empathize. That is, I recognize that other human beings have the same or similar desires to my own, and I can place myself in the other person’s shoes – I know what it would feel like to be taken advantage of by me, so I choose not to act in such a fashion. I would argue that a lack of empathy, as I have described it, is the greatest cause of actions harmful to other human beings, but that is a topic for another discussion.
Thus, in my opinion, the notion of “morality” as something that exists in and of itself, independent of society, is meaningless. However, I think you can also agree, that NO ONE truly lives independent of any society. Every person, no matter how self-sufficient, ultimately depends on someone else. Thus social morality naturally and NECESSARILY emerges, through oral tradition or codified laws, as a means to ensure that a society’s members can co-exist to the maximum benefit and minimun detriment to all of its members.
30 January 2006, on 7:01 pm
Ah, ignore the occasional errors in possessives (has/have) and spelling errors above
30 January 2006, on 9:02 pm
im sorry you feel this way. i don’t know what i would do without God in my life.
30 January 2006, on 9:20 pm
Bekarras,
Your smugly delivered sympathy is both condescending and an insult.
30 January 2006, on 9:22 pm
Hey, maybe the numbers are skewed. The research was from 97. Atheist were .209 (or less than 1%) and Catholics took the lead at 39.0164 (followed by Protestants) out of about 200K prisoners. Point is, if we’re so “lost” without jeebus, then why aren’t more of us in prison for horrible crimes like the one above? I’ll wait for gawds reply on that.
30 January 2006, on 9:33 pm
“I say we start a collection and higher a deprogrammer for this kid. I kind of feel sorry for him.”
It’s called university campus life. I see it alot, some kid comes in, only half aware of his own faith, and his professors and peers systematically pick what little belief they have apart. Next thing ya know, they are off deprogramming some other unfortunate youth, unaware how to fight back. I’m just thankful I entered the system the first time as a rowdy agnostic. I didn’t have much of a program left to eradicate.
30 January 2006, on 9:56 pm
I’ve been reading the comments and am struck by one thing. Nobody has really answered the question of moral absolutes. Was Hitlers Germany wrong? If so why? If not why not? Trevor (however roughly stated) has raised some very legitimate questions.
We haven’t? I thought that we either answered it, or at least pointed in the direction of an answer.
For the record, problems of morality and value exist for anybody, not just atheists. I think previous comments pointed to a direction of both naturalism and rationalism to answer these questions (and to why genocide is wrong).
But I think it’s important to point something out throughout all this discussion: either atheism is going to be able to answer this problem, or it isn’t. If it can answer this problem (and I think it can), then fine, we’re done. But if it can’t, that doesn’t automatically mean that theism can, and the theist is going to be left with a burden that I don’t think it can handle — i.e., she is going to make the problem (and gap) of value so difficult through her skepticism that she’s not going to be able to fix it, even with the concept of god.
What the theist needs to do is phrase the problem of value and morality in such a way that atheism can’t solve it, but the introduction of god can. And I haven’t heard anything close to that, at least not yet.
30 January 2006, on 10:09 pm
Heh Marcus, I wouldn’t worry about the “condescending” remark. The statement “I don’t know what I would do without God in my life” proves my point, about empathy and the lack thereof. You see, I used to be Christian (for 32 of my 37 years), so I know what it’s like to feel what Bekarras feels whe he made that statement. The problem is, he cannot step into MY shoes and feel what I feel, that my life is not empty and meaningless. He truly cannot comprehend that I can be happy without a god, and thus has no empathy for me. Once you lack empathy for you fellow human beings … well, your moral codes towards them tend to suffer too, don’t they
And Dan, I’m sorry but comment #7 was pure bull****. It depends on what classes you take, and what university you go to. To say that all institutions of higher learning are places of deprogramming is inaccurate at best, deceitful and hateful at worst. I went to a Jesuit university. If anything, my faith was stronger when I left than when I entered. Unfortunately, 9/11 happened over four years ago, and I was working 5 blocks from the World Trade Center the morning it happened. Needless to say, that was one of the major events that catapulted my deconversion.
30 January 2006, on 10:49 pm
“It depends on what classes you take, and what university you go to. To say that all institutions of higher learning are places of deprogramming is inaccurate”
You are correct. But to clarify, I am speaking from my personal experience. I have not been to all college or university campuses, nor have I seen a study on it. This is a personal observation, not a purposefully decietful or hateful remark. However, I think I shall research this now that you bring it up.
It’s funny how things affect different people. My Cousin worked in the world trade center complex and it has made him more God fearing. Of course, he was a janitor, so what do ya expect? I suppose it is purely individuation at work.
I can’t believe how much time I devoted to this blog today, I’m rambling now, thinking out loud.
30 January 2006, on 11:16 pm
Well, for me, 9/11 is what triggered the question of what exactly I believed in. After that I had to ask, is god omniscient? omnipotent? omnibenevolent? etc. What god could be compatible with what I had just witnessed? What is Christianity’s explanation for this event, and did it make sense? etc etc. I didn’t become an atheist overnight, I questioned for almost 12 months. There was no “eureka” moment, if anything, it was a huge letdown. I *wanted* there to be a god, I really did. I desperately didn’t want to see a world where there was no god … but as the months of questioning went by, I was logically left with no choice. Looking back I realize, I did it with no support system, no one to deconvert me, I did this all by myself. I don’t know how many other people deconverted themselves. I wish I knew about the atheist blogosphere back then!
30 January 2006, on 11:23 pm
I don’t really care what stupid people think about me, but a serious problem arises when they actually start trying to follow through to the next logical conclusion of their faith. “I think you atheists is e-vile, therefore I conclude you should all be massacred” Trevor is a perfect model of this way of thinking. It is a terrible way of thinking.
I don’t give a shit that he’s too stupid (or perhaps too stubborn, maybe even both) to change anything im his shoddy model of the world despite new evidence or knowledge that is presented to him, but when he says shit that is basically the equivalent of “if y’all atheists keep growin’ in numbers we might have to have ourselves a big lynch-fest” I honestly think that he should be considered mentally unstable and put into a nuthouse like every other psycho who is a danger to themselves and others.
I do remember when I still had faith like Sobex described and had trouble understanding what a life without god could ever be like, but I could still empathize with basic human emotion and understand someones feelings towards a subject even though I didn’t understand why they had the feelings toward the subject. I understand Trevor, not in a forgiving way, no, but I understand him. His head is so loaded with bullshit that conflicts with his everyday observations of the world that it causes such cognitive dissonance that it requires him to be paranoid in a way to keep his belief real in his mind. So terrified is he of losing his safety blanket of a belief system that he has actually begun to formulate a sort of “atheist question” in his mind and talking to us about our eventual genocide using illogical arguments to justify it.
I don’t fault him for being afraid, it takes a bit of a leap for each person to go from faithful to non-faithful, there are no real baby steps for most, unless faith was already somewhat meaningless to you. But where I do fault Trevor is for being extremely selfish. He would actually contemplate our demise and come here to insult us about how evil we are just so he can hold on to his bullshit religion. Fuck you Trevor, stop being a coward, being afraid of making the leap is natural, but threatening and insulting people who aren’t even forcing you to make the leap in the first place to make you feel better about being on the crumbling cliff you remain clinging to is selfish and cowardly.
31 January 2006, on 2:46 am
I definetly see my weaknesess now as far as communicating efictively…
I never said anything about massacring atheists!i said(or what i meant to say) is that please read this carefully–
Within the atheistic community there is nothing that defines what is right and what is wrong,THEREFORE mainstream atheists(that agree with their philosophy) could potentially change america’s way of thinking in regard to morals, until there are no morals(or everyones morals are different) and there would be nothing(like the bible) to say what is wrong and what is right,things like massacre.I understand that you have morals, I know you have morals,but there is nothing to say(within the atheistic/humanistic community)that one persons morals are any better than anothers. I have 3 questions(if anyone is still even reading this)
Is gay marriage wrong?
Is Murder wrong?
How is murder any less or more wrong than gay marriage,and what defines it?(im just using gay marriage as an example something more accepted.i’m not wanting to start a discussion on it)
31 January 2006, on 2:54 am
And i don’t mind the crtitsism(althought i think most of you just misunderstood what i was saying).although one comment struck me…
“His head is so loaded with bullshit that conflicts with his everyday observations of the world that it causes such cognitive dissonance that it requires him to be paranoid in a way to keep his belief real in his mind”
My everyday observations affirm and reaffirm my belief.If you want to name some “bullsh**” that conflicts with my quotidien experience thats fine,but don’t just sit there critisizing me…and you say i’m one minded?…
31 January 2006, on 3:34 am
and excuse all the typos please,i can type correctly…
was going to say that I was somewhat like trevor at his age (just a few years ago), but then I read further into what he says and damn, I was much smarter at that age. What the fuck trevor?? You’re playing the stereotypical teenage idiot role. Be a little more fucking self aware and aware of the world around you, people like you are the reason people of our age group are automatically assumed to be immature idiots. This guy is the fucking reason I can’t get a damn ounce of respect unless through the anonymity of the internet. Bastard.
“LOL…you obviously dont know what irredubly complexity is…or you would explain it to me…AHAH…”
“Trevor… kill yourself please. Since you won’t apparently click on the fucking link Lya provided I’ll go a few more steps and provide you with a more direct link, note that if you don’t click the fucking link and post another LOL.. you don’t know what “irrudubly” complexity post you will be ignored.”
That was a typo…i had gone to the link from the beggining,but anyone can post a link…that didnt prove that she knew what she it was…thats why i was laughing.
Ford-”Fuck you Trevor, stop being a coward, being afraid of making the leap is natural, but threatening and insulting people who aren’t even forcing you to make the leap in the first place to make you feel better about being on the crumbling cliff you remain clinging to is selfish and cowardly.”
I never threatenend nor insulted one person on this forum…
“Fuck you Trevor…Threatening and insulting people is selfish and cowardly”
31 January 2006, on 3:36 am
Wow. All I can say is Wow.
I think Bob said something that struck a chord with me.
“What the theist needs to do is phrase the problem of value and morality in such a way that atheism can’t solve it, but the introduction of god can. And I haven’t heard anything close to that, at least not yet.”
Hopefully Bob, one day I will be able to respond to that. I want to respond, but dammit–I don’t even know how to begin.
I must give kudos to the 14-year-old. If, in fact he’s really 14.
Stick around kid.
There’s a reason you fell upon this place.
31 January 2006, on 3:37 am
Paragraph 5,line 2-**she knew what it was
31 January 2006, on 3:49 am
Holy shit, Bob. Speed record! 80 responses in a little over one day!
I haven’t even had a chance to read any of this yet. I have my work cut out for me.
31 January 2006, on 5:38 am
Zach-”The fact that you cling to the idea of “irreducible complexity” as evidence against the theory of evolution shows that you yourself have no concept of what it entails or how micro/macro evolution occurs. Heck, you can’t even spell it. Since you seem incapable of following the links to information on the subject given, I’ll give you a short disproof of irreducible complexity.
Claim: The eye is a perfect organ. It is so complex that it is impossible that it could have resulted through the gradual process of mutation and natural selection. What good is “half of an eye” anyway?
The Truth:
First off, the eye is far from perfect. It is indeed a wonder to behold, but far from perfect (the blood vessels in your eye are placed in front of the retina, thus casting shadows and degrading vision quality).
Secondly, a “half of an eye” is very useful indeed. The most primitive sort of eye, such as the type found on the paramecium that you study in high school biology, is simply a cluster of light sensitive cells. This allows an organism to avoid light or dark places, or to detect the shadow cast by a predator.
So, what happens if by a happy mutation that little patch of light-sensing cells is deformed into, say, a concave shape? Well now the organism is possession of this novel new trait is able to roughly detect the direction in which a light source located, increasing its ability to seek more favorable surroundings.
From this point, you should be able to see how we get from this primitive “cup” eye to what we have today.”
Trevor-what does any of that have to do with ireducible complexity??the eye being or not being perfect is beside the point(although the eye is an extremly complex organism which i dont understand how anyone could say it came about by chance…).A good example of ireducible complexity is the flagellum.
Quoted from Michael Behe-The structure of a flagellum is quite different from that of a cilium. The flagellum is a long, hairlike filament embedded in the cell membrane. The external filament consists of a single type of protein, called “flagellin.” The flagellin filament is the paddle surface that contacts the the liquid during swimming. At the end of the flagellin filament near the surface of the cell, there is a bulge in the thickness of the flagellum. It is here that the filament attaches to the rotor drive. The attachment material is comprised of something called “hook protein.” The filament of a bacterial flagellum, unlike a cilium, contains no motor protein; if it is broken off, the filament just floats stiffly in the water. Therefore the motor that rotates the filament-propellor must be located somewhere else. Experiments have demonstrated that it is located at the base of the flagellum, where electron microscopy shows several ring structures occur. The rotary nature of the flagellum has clear, unavoidable consequences … (pp. 70-72)
So you see…
31 January 2006, on 7:17 am
You quoted BEHE? You expect us to take anything that ignorant jackass has to say? My goodness you are you. Look at Talkorigins- they refute behe from start to finish.
31 January 2006, on 7:41 am
http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html
THis is quoted from talkdesign.org and although they express all the parts and the evolutionary model in regard to the flagellum in detail they miss one thing and they admit it(however hiden within the huge article”.check it out-
“The role that various evolutionary processes played in the model can now be roughly quantified. Only one major shift of function occurred at the system level, the transition from a pilus to a protoflagellum. All of the other changes in system function can be seen as minor modifications of a basic function”
The major shift from the pilus to the protoflagellum is nowhere accounted for…
31 January 2006, on 7:46 am
they admit it again in the conclusion,
“In each of these cases, cooption occurred by the mutation of one protein to link two preexisting systems (Figure 7), followed by the duplication and integration of the new subsystem proteins into the major system. Except for the major transition between pilus and motility, subsystem cooption was associated with improvements of system function rather than major changes in system function”
NOWHERE DO THEY EXPLAIN THE MAJOR TRANSITION!!
31 January 2006, on 7:55 am
Trevor, one thing you need to learn about science is that nothing is even absolutely proven. We can only disprove things. Read further down the article:
“The previously accepted homologies between flagellar components and nonflagellar systems (such as for FliI and MotAB) are not the strange anomalies they appear to be when viewed in isolation, rather they fit well into a gradual model of flagellar evolution, and give clues as to where further homologies may be discovered. Cooption of preexisting subsystems are the key events of interest in the model. Gene duplications within the system primarily add complexity after the origin of the protoflagellum, and other processes, such as domain swapping and the loss of “scaffolding” components, are relatively minor players. Finally, in light of the organized complexity and apparent “design” of the flagellum, the very fact that a step-by-step Darwinian model can be constructed that is plausible and testable significantly weakens the suggestion that extraordinary explanations might be required.”
They have shown that a step-by-step basis for the evolution of the bacterial flagellum exists. This does not mean that it occured in exactly this way, but that the possibility exists. The fact that the possibility exists throws Irreducible Complexity out the window.
31 January 2006, on 7:57 am
Anyone have that emoticon that bangs its head against the desk?
31 January 2006, on 8:06 am
does that mean ur stumped?or that ur annoyed?if ur just annoyed then i’d like some sort of rebuttal…
31 January 2006, on 8:13 am
“does that mean ur stumped?or that ur annoyed?if ur just annoyed then i’d like some sort of rebuttal…”
It’s neither. If the “gaps” in knowledge you perceive are immediately filled in with gawd for you, then there’s little point in continuing this. You’ve done nothing to prove that your god exists – you’ve simply proven that one article on a GIGANTIC site didn’t answer all your questions.
But, it’s not my job to educate you. If you want to waste your time with Behe or Demski or Hovind, go right ahead. McDonald’s always needs night managers.
31 January 2006, on 8:19 am
I quoted your own reference site..its not my gaps,its talkingorigins gaps…ur stumped…
Anyway,i think we got off subject there,read message 77 and answer the questions…
31 January 2006, on 8:28 am
“I quoted your own reference site..its not my gaps,its talkingorigins gaps…ur stumped…”
You’ve got a suprising lack of reading comprehension. I know you quoted from the link. You quote one section of one article from that gigantic resource. The only thing you’ve proven is that you’re unwiling to do the research.
Fuck you and your commands. I’m sure every dumbass point and logical fallacy you put out was already addressed by others on the board. You’re head is simply stuffed too far up your ass to get it.\
It’s very simple, child. If you want to believe in imaginary gods, go ahead. We don’t. There’s nothing else to say.
31 January 2006, on 8:35 am
Trevor,
Fuckin’-A, you’re about as sharp as a basketball. The lack of coherence in your composition makes it nigh impossible to read your posts. I think I will ignore you now only to infrequently answer your “questions” with ridicule.
31 January 2006, on 8:35 am
lol…you didnt answer them…and they say it on their own site!!…ur exactly right its one quote from one huge article in one huge resource…they’re not going to make the header of their site “Our argument against irreducible complexity is seriously flawed”.
I personally find this very enjoyable and wish everyone would quit attacking me personally and start attacking my philosophy.
31 January 2006, on 8:39 am
“lol…you didnt answer them…and they say it on their own site!!…ur exactly right its one quote from one huge article in one huge resource…they’re not going to make the header of their site “Our argument against irreducible complexity is seriously flawed”.”
Goodness, you are an idiot. Has it occurred to you there is more than just one article? That there is more than just one site? That there is more than just one viewpoint? For the second time now – it’s not my job to do your research for you. I’ve given you a starting point. If you’re to frigging lazy or dumb to continue down that path, so be it. However, you really need to stop these false claims. It makes you look simple.
“I personally find this very enjoyable and wish everyone would quit attacking me personally and start attacking my philosophy.”
*lol* Fuck you, baby boy. You came here and insulted us immediately. You negated your change at reasonable discourse. It is very enjoyable to watch your intellect struggle to keep justifying your fairy tales. Which, btw, are not philosophy, but retarded superstitions.
You tell yourself whatever you have to to keep believing in these infantile fairy tales. I fail to see why you come here since you’re clearly unwilling to consider any points but your own.
31 January 2006, on 8:45 am
first of all, it is a philosophy heres the definition…
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies-
1. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs
2.A system of values by which one lives
still havent answered the questions,if you answer them…i’ll go away and never come back(well not for a while anyway)…
31 January 2006, on 9:03 am
Ah, I see. You’re claiming that what your religion teaches you is your philosophy. Flimsy, but since you’ve failed on every other account, that can slide.
Fell free to go away now. I’m sure others already answered your goofy questions just as I’m sure you didn’t comprehend their answers. It must be nap time by now.
Here’s a list of questions for you: http://www.ooblick.com/text/id-fabnaq.html
We’ll take you seriously when you can answer every one of those to our satisfaction.
31 January 2006, on 9:31 am
if its so dumb and “goofy” then it should be easily answered…intelligent design cannot be proven.period.Replace every question in that list with evolution…and answer it…you need so much more faith to believe in evolution if you really look into it…which i have extensively.To everyone that said I’ve been brain-washed,you have no idea what I’ve been through…and how I’ve racked my brain to come to these conclusions…
31 January 2006, on 9:42 am
“if its so dumb and “goofy” then it should be easily answered”
And they have been ad nauseum.
“…intelligent design cannot be proven.period.”
Right.
“Replace every question in that list with evolution…and answer it”
Talkorigins.org., Panda’s Thumb, etc etc. There are plenty of websites that do just that.
“…you need so much more faith to believe in evolution if you really look into it…which i have extensively.”
You are an absolute liar. No one “believes” in evolution. It’s fact. If you had “extensively” looked into it, you would know that. But, I suspect that extent of your research is Behe, and therefore you know jack shit about evolution.
“To everyone that said I’ve been brain-washed,you have no idea what I’ve been through…and how I’ve racked my brain to come to these conclusions… ”
Bullshit. Nearly all of us have been where you are. Most of us were theists once. Then we grew up. You can’t claim that you’ve racked your brain for answers if you’ve never considered the opposing side. Which you clearly haven’t.
But thanks for not answering ANY of those questions, and proving you’ve got nothing.
31 January 2006, on 9:57 am
I said myself,it can’t be proven…Why won’t you answer the questions?Why should I answer your questions if you won’t answer mine?…this is becoming circular,but I wish you would answer the questions…if you can…
So you dont believe in evolution??You,um…think about it?you think it rolls nicely off the tongue?…help me out here…
31 January 2006, on 10:16 am
“I said myself,it can’t be proven…Why won’t you answer the questions?Why should I answer your questions if you won’t answer mine?…this is becoming circular,but I wish you would answer the questions…if you can…”
FOR THE THIRD TIME: Whatever questions you’re talking about were probably already answered. Why should I answer yours if you won’t answer mine?
This is already circular. You prove you’re woefully uninformed on the subjects you post about, we prove that, you do it again.
“So you dont believe in evolution??”
Belief in or having faith in something denotes a lac of evidence for it. There is plenty of evidence for evolution, so no, I don’t believe in it. It’s simply true. And it remains true despite those who, like you, know nothing about it but claim to be able to refute it.
31 January 2006, on 10:53 am
I already explained to you that Intelligent Design cannot be proven but it answers all the “gaps” and “missing links” and sheer complexity of human life,where as evolution does not.So,no,i cant prove to you there’s a God or that he created me any more than you can prove that there isn’t.There are so many more flaws in evolution than inteligent design,try answer some of these questions with the “plenty of evidence” that is supposedly out there.(I’m talking about Macro evolution,not Micro)
So,Where is there any evidence for cosmic ancestry?explain how DNA could possibly come about through evolution! ]
One of the best arguments against evolution is that natural change in living things is limited,organisms stay true to type up to certain degree.One example,the sugar beet.Consider,after 75 years of selective breeding(that is with human help) brough up the sugar content from 6% to 17%.After that,they could go no further.why is this?because after all the genes in a trait have been selected,it can’t be changed any more.A bird cannot be bred to grow fur.a pig cannot grow wings…
Another example of evidence against Macro evolution-Mutations result in harmful consequences.If I by accident write “ireduble complexity”(and any other typing mistakes here) that doesnt make my composition better(as you kindly pointed out).If a baby is born with three legs it doesnt make it easier to survive.As far as history has been recorded, there are no drastic mutations that have been helpful, and the small mutations have to stop after there genetic traits are exhausted.Sure, finches beaks change.Sure, fruit flys wings can change colors.But they dont turn into new creatures all together!
Back to DNA,this is an EXTREMLY complex code of information.Imagine if you were walking on the beach and you saw the words “john loves mary” written in the sand,you would automatically assume that a human hand had written it.After millions of years of tide coming up and sands washing away,you would never see words appear…now,thats just a 3 letter word..imagine the complexity of DNA just happening by chance…no way.
Earth itself would blow up if we were even slightly closer to the sun.
Atoms-what holds atoms together??(an oldy but a goody)
read this please and try to be open minded.
31 January 2006, on 11:05 am
And you tell me you don’t have to believe in Evolution…it must take massive amounts of faith…
31 January 2006, on 11:15 am
Hopefully Bob, one day I will be able to respond to that. I want to respond, but dammit–I don’t even know how to begin.
(Howdy, Dena!) Someone actually reads what I write! YES!
Seriously, the people on this site, of course (with, I would guess, the possible exception of Trevor), think that you (or anyone else) can already respond to it, and in the right way, if you just take that next step — i.e., by seeing any kind of transcendent realm as unnecessary for value, and by recognizing that such realms only cloud, not clarify, issues of value.
In short, embrace this world and all it holds. Friendships become real, art and music and knowledge and love all become real, and not some parasitic-second-hand-bullshit-that-only-mimics-the-REAL-stuff-from-above-or-somewhere-else.
As we say on our shirts: “Without God, Life is Everything.”
31 January 2006, on 11:49 am
Trevor,
You’re a funny little troll, aren’t you? Somehow I get the impression you’re not really a fourteen-year old. Why are you so uncomfortable with ignorance that you fill the gaps with jizzus chatter?
To answer your “questions”:
“Is gay marriage wrong?”
Define “wrong”
“Is Murder wrong?”
Define “wrong”
Happy now, runt?
Also,
How are Jizzus and a corndog alike?
They’re both meat on a stick!
31 January 2006, on 12:00 pm
“I already explained to you that Intelligent Design cannot be proven but it answers all the “gaps” and “missing links” and sheer complexity of human life,where as evolution does not.”
FLAT OUT LIE. If this were true, then you could answer those questions I put to yu.
“are so many more flaws in evolution than inteligent design”
FLAT OUT LIE.
“try answer some of these questions with the “plenty of evidence” that is supposedly out there.(I’m talking about Macro evolution,not Micro)”
FOR THE THIRD TIME: I gave you links. I pointed the way. I’m not doing your research for you.
“A bird cannot be bred to grow fur.a pig cannot grow wings…”
Evolution does not claim such. LIAR.
“read this please and try to be open minded. ”
Read the links I provided and try to be open minded.
Poor little dipshit. How many times do we need to say the same thing before it sinks through the brainwashing?
“And you tell me you don’t have to believe in Evolution…it must take massive amounts of faith… ”
FLAT OUT LIE. Isn’t there a commandment against lying? I already explained this too you. I’m sorry you have no reading comprehension.
Yeah, this asshat is just a troll- and an amazingly stupid one at that. I don’t trust anyone who makes an issue out of their age because it’s irrelevent info.
31 January 2006, on 12:01 pm
The best part is, that whole bullshit post about ID and the “problems” in evolution is REPEATEDLY refuted in talkorigins feedback section.
31 January 2006, on 12:14 pm
Back to talkorigins eh?
lya-”Has it occurred to you there is more than just one article? That there is more than just one site?”
we already saw that talkorigins doesnt explain everything…ok,im done with this..but i dont think it was a waste of time.I hope all of you will come to “see the light” whether its thru a supernatural experience,or thru plain logic.I’m sorry if I offended anyone(although you guys dont seem to mind shelling it out) and want to suggest that you listen to a debate between Dr. Greg Bahnsen and Dr Stein- http://www.straitgate.com/audio ,i went to everyone of your links and references so i would appreciate if you would go to mine,thx for discusing this.I really am 14 and this was a school prject so yeah…so long
31 January 2006, on 12:16 pm
“ok,im done with this”
PRAISE JESUS!
“I hope all of you will come to “see the light” whether its thru a supernatural experience,or thru plain logic.”
We hope the same for you.
“I really am 14 and this was a school prject so yeah…so long”
Since you’ve lied so much already, we all absolutely believe you. Really.
31 January 2006, on 12:44 pm
Stupid little trevor,
“Earth itself would blow up if we were even slightly closer to the sun.”
How do you explain the existence of Mercury and Venus ?
“Atoms-what holds atoms together??(an oldy but a goody)”
The electromagnetic force holds negatively charged electrons in orbit around the nucleus of an atom which consists of positively charged protons and neutrons which have no electromagnetic charge. Protons and neutrons are composed of quarks which are held together by the strong nuclear force.
Clearly you don’t have a clue about science. I suggest you get your head out of the christian bible which is fully of garbage and has woefully deluded you and start reading some science books. Of course you also *desperately* need to improve your grammar and spelling skills first.
Questions to the regulars – who is worse, trevor or sable chicken ??
31 January 2006, on 12:51 pm
“Questions to the regulars – who is worse, trevor or sable chicken ?? ”
Sable. If Trevor is really 14 he’s got an excuse for being uninformed and clueless. Sable is (apparently) an adult – there is no excuse.
31 January 2006, on 12:56 pm
One last thing,since the link was fake,i know you didnt go to it.So thanks for doing the research and being open minded.
me-“A bird cannot be bred to grow fur.a pig cannot grow wings…”
lya-Evolution does not claim such. LIAR.
Me-well it has to be read in context,but ur right,evolution doesnt claim such sane things.it says things like(and i quote from your favorite site talkorigins) “Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with” and then says(on the same site,but a different page)”Most mutations are neither harmful nor helpful”
31 January 2006, on 1:00 pm
EoR-sorry,I meant,we would blow up..human life would not exist…
In regard to the Strong NUclear Forse,YES,exactly,but what IS the strong nuclear force?No evolutionist can account for it,i think its God.All the other forces can be broken down,this one has no explanantion!
SOrry,i know i said i was going,but this is really addicting
31 January 2006, on 1:01 pm
*force
31 January 2006, on 1:16 pm
Stupid little trevor,
HAHAHAHA !!!! You don’t even know what the heck you’re saying, you’re just rambling on and on mindlessly. First you say “Earth itself would blow up if we were even slightly closer to the sun.” then when I point out that there are two planets closer to the sun you say “we would blow up”. If the Earth had been too close or too far from the sun then life wouldn’t have started here to being with since the environment would’ve been inhospitable.
“but what IS the strong nuclear force?No evolutionist can account for it”
One has to do with quantum physics and the other biology, why would an “evolutionist” need to account for one of the elementary forces ? Just what level of idiot are you ? Do you goto some sort of remedial retard school, I can’t see how you could possibly be in high school with your level of sheer incompetence. Also you should never post anything anywhere as your lack of grammar and spelling skills coupled with your religious rantings and ravings only serve to show your stupidity and ignorance.
31 January 2006, on 1:17 pm
“Is gay marriage wrong?
Is Murder wrong?
How is murder any less or more wrong than gay marriage,and what defines it?(im just using gay marriage as an example something more accepted.i’m not wanting to start a discussion on it)”
Gay marriage? Not wrong at all.
Murder? Yes, murder is wrong.
Comparing murder to gay marriage? Let’s see, you’re asking if killing someone is worse than allowing two members of the same sex to enjoy the same rights that a couple of varying genders already enjoy. How are the two even comparable? Wow. Your brainwashing is thorough. I’ll give you that.
31 January 2006, on 1:18 pm
“thanks for doing the research and being open minded.”
Thanks for proving yet again that you have no reading comprehension skills. You’re links – real or not – are irrelevent. I have already read books by Behe, Demski etc. I have already done the research. You clearly have not. Thanks for playing. You still lose.
31 January 2006, on 1:25 pm
I’m speechless. Well not totally.
ID has done more to undermine the American Xian credibility factor than anything else in recent years. It would have been better to just stick to taking the Genesis myth literal and have everything just appear in a week. At least that could be considered an honest mistake, not an obvious attempt at underhanded slight of hand. I personally would rather be called dumb than a liar.
Sometime in the near or maybe distant future, the “gaps” will all be filled in irrefutably. Where will that leave ID?
Trevor,
In all seriousness, if ID had burst on the scene 50 yrs ago, they would have said theropods can’t grow feathers, let alone evolve into birds. That gap has been filled now, very plainly using modern cladistics. Look at the WHOLE PROCESS as a miracle, instead of seeking individual miracles within major shifts of function.
31 January 2006, on 1:40 pm
Anyone who actually believes that everything appeared in a week is an utter idiot and needs to learn something about astronomy. The whole ID fiasco only served to help show the true colors of idiot christians – dumbass idiots who want to push their primitive anti-science beliefs upon everyone by any means. Keep it up as these sort of failed efforts serve non-believers. If you morons continue to make yourselves look stupid, all the better.
31 January 2006, on 2:16 pm
As we say on our shirts:
“Without God, Life is Everything.”
That’s why you guys are so kind to the little ones…right. Because you really care about people…and jello!
Lya, I found something you were looking for.
http://www.randi.org/images/061402-ComputerProblem.gif
31 January 2006, on 2:58 pm
Trevor,
If you have not done so already rent on DVD “Icons of Evolution”
http://www.goccc.com/icofev20off.html
31 January 2006, on 3:25 pm
Sable, shove it up your self righteous ass. How many times does it need to be explained to you assholes that when you come in insulting, you will be insulted. Is that really such a hard concept for you to understand?
You’ve got to admit it’s hilarious that Sable is helping another clueless whackadoo become MORE clueless. Just look what you could grow up into, Trevor. You could be Sable.
31 January 2006, on 3:50 pm
“That’s why you guys are so kind to the little ones…right. Because you really care about people”
Wasn’t it you who said that atheists are mean, and they’re smart ? Why come back here unless you don’t want someone else to dethrone you in the stupid department. Don’t worry you proved yourself to be one stupid brainwiped bitch.
31 January 2006, on 4:27 pm
King retard says-
“Is gay marriage wrong?
Is Murder wrong?
How is murder any less or more wrong than gay marriage,and what defines it?(im just using gay marriage as an example something more accepted.i’m not wanting to start a discussion on it)”
Gay marriage? Not wrong at all.
Murder? Yes, murder is wrong.
Comparing murder to gay marriage? Let’s see, you’re asking if killing someone is worse than allowing two members of the same sex to enjoy the same rights that a couple of varying genders already enjoy. How are the two even comparable? Wow. Your brainwashing is thorough. I’ll give you that. ”
Trevor(me)-first of all, you never answered the third question…which was the whole point.second of all,According to the National institute of drug abuse(http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/drugabuse.html)
55% of all aids cases are from male to male sexual contact,only 5% are from heterosexual contact.So its not quite as harmless as it may seem to you…
Sable-I havent seen it,but I’ve heard of it..i’ll check it out.
NO ONE HAS STILL ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS ON MESSAGE 77!!(btw marcus,you asked what defines wrong?well thats exactly what I’m asking you..for me its the bible..I’m asking you atheists to tell me what defines wrong)
31 January 2006, on 5:48 pm
What if I think your bible doesn’t apply to me because I’m an atheist? What do you compromise as a definition of “wrong”?
31 January 2006, on 6:42 pm
Marcus,
Was Hitlers Germany right or wrong? If right, why? If wrong, why?
31 January 2006, on 6:47 pm
wrong ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rông, rng)
adj.
1. Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
2.
(a) Contrary to conscience, morality, or law; immoral or wicked.
(b) Unfair; unjust.
3. Not required, intended, or wanted: took a wrong turn.
4. Not fitting or suitable; inappropriate or improper: said the wrong thing.
5. Not in accord with established usage, method, or procedure: the wrong way to shuck clams.
6. Not functioning properly; out of order.
7. Unacceptable or undesirable according to social convention.
8. Designating the side, as of a garment, that is less finished and not intended to show: socks worn wrong side out.
There’s the fucking definition of wrong. If you think it comes from the fucking bible, think it. Who fucking cares? Everyone has their own definition of wrong and right. For me, I would never kill someone, rape or abuse someone, or do anything that gets me in trouble with the law or hurts someone else substantially. Happy now, fuckwad? Jesus christ….
Oh yeah, your questions:
Is gay marriage wrong?
No.
Is Murder wrong?
Yes.
How is murder any less or more wrong than gay marriage,and what defines it?(im just using gay marriage as an example something more accepted.i’m not wanting to start a discussion on it)
Murder takes life away from others. This one life is all we have. If you want to take away EVERYTHING from one person, you can deal with it for the rest of your life. But it’s your choice. In addition, the fact that a high percentage of AIDS cases in the US results from male-male sexual contact doesn’t mean being gay causes AIDS. Nor does it mean that gay marriage causes AIDS. Tell me, please, how many cases in Africa, Brazil, etc. are resultant of male-male sexual contact? Eh?
Oh yeah, stop talking DNA with scientists. If you knew anything about genomics and evolution, you’d shut your fucking face.
31 January 2006, on 6:51 pm
Crystal,
What’s with the language? I merely asked a question which was not really answered — why was it wrong? if it was OK with Hitler (i.e. his right) why should it matter to anyone else?
31 January 2006, on 6:58 pm
Your ignorance makes me want to stick a gun in my mouth. Why are you asking these questions? Do you not understand that everyone adheres to their own morals? It doesn’t matter where you get them from. People are going to do what the fuck they want to regardless of what you think. Let it be, son.
31 January 2006, on 9:21 pm
ITS CALLED EMPATHY FUCKTARD!!!!!!!! YOU SEE A PERSON, YOU APPLY YOUR
EMOTIONAL ATTRIBUTES TO THEM AND WHEN YOU REALIZE THEY ARE FEELING
PAIN AS THE RESULT OF YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE AND YOU KNOW THAT PAIN
SUCKS, YOU DON’T WANT IT TO HAPPEN!!!! WHY DOES IT BOTHER US?!!
BECAUSE WE’RE FUCKING HUMAN, HEALTHY FUCKING HUMANS THAT AREN’T
SOCIOPATHS!! ITS OUR FUCKING NATURE YOU ASSHOLE!! THAT IS THE WAY THE
HUMAN BEING IS SET UP BECAUSE IT WAS BENEFICIAL IN TERMS OF
EVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE ARE A SOCIAL SPECIES AND AND IT IS ONLY
NATURAL THAT WE WOULD EVOLVE TO HAVE SUCH EMOTIONS AND EMPATHY FOR
OTHERS!!!!!
Can you read what I’ve written? Did that catch your fucking attention?!! We won’t suddenly change our morals asstard!!!!!!!! There is about as much a chance of us doing a moral 180 as there is our ass migrating to our fucking face!!!!
Was Hitler wrong?!! So you’re saying hitler was only wrong because he broke some fucking commandments?! Do you even give a fuck about the people who lost their lives and families in horrible ways?!! I mean do you REALLY fucking care? Not just because a fucking book told you to but because of any sense of humanity you might fucking have in you!! Do care?! Aids? I don’t know, let’s use common fucking sense, breathing is bad because it can give people a cold. Stop breathing right now!!
Asshole. You don’t know shit, look at yourself!! Your arguments consist of ignoring us and using faulty logic!! You think you have any fucking thing on the countless biologists and physicists whose entire lives consist of studying this shit?! Do you assume that this site just popped into existance when you came here and we had never heard your bullshit before? Did you think your half baked shit that you spent probably five minutes thinking about (I hope for your fucking sake it was five minutes, if you actually put a lot of thought into that shit you should feel pretty fucking stupid) was going to come in here and completely smash everything we had to say into pieces? We’ve answered your questions and your questions have been answered MILLIONS of times on the internet and if you did a five second google search to find the answers you would find them.
Read further back in previous posts on this site to see where your shit has been answered, go to pharyngula (type it in on google, if I post a link no one will see this post for hours) and tell them your shit there. This is just a site of autodiadects, those guys are fucking biologists and study this shit everyday, this is their life, go ask them and they will answer very truthfully (though I would suggest cleaning up your typing a bit so they can fucking read what you said) based on what they’ve observed in their own direct research.
31 January 2006, on 9:37 pm
Trevor, the reason people are now cursing at you, instead of being more cordial when you first started asking questions, is because you refuse to accept the logical answers we gave you, and to fully use the links we gave to spur your own research. You see, most of us here are naturally curious. We enjoy asking questions, and seeking explanations for what we observe. We don’t WANT people answering all our questions, most of us here are happy to be pointed to a particular document or source, and we can begin our own discovery. If you do not share this passion for learning, if you want all the answers to be simply given to you, you will not find much sympathy here. We are not here to provide you with the answers to all of your questions — first of all, that’s rather demeaning to the rest of us, as we do not exist solely for YOUR pleasure; and second, why would you want to have all the answers provided to you? That would make you a sheep, wouldn’t it?
Find the answers on your own, whatever those answers are. With knowledge comes power, and in particular, knowledge you acquire on your own is power you give YOURSELF.
31 January 2006, on 9:57 pm
Wow! a 14 year old got everyones undies in a knot!
“NATURAL THAT WE WOULD EVOLVE TO HAVE SUCH EMOTIONS AND EMPATHY FOR
OTHERS!!!!!”
If I was to stop believing in God right now…would you show me just what that empathy, that you are talking about looks like? Or are you already showing it to Trevor…and we just can’t see it through all the crystal clear F-words.
Let’s all just take 3 deep breaths;)
31 January 2006, on 10:11 pm
Wow. I’ve read this blog for quite some time, but this is my first time posting. I just have to say that I have never felt so ashamed to call myself an atheist. Usually, my lack of faith is a point of pride for me, personal proof of my ability to think critically and use my evolution-granted gift of reason. However, to read the angry, insulting drivel that most of you are spewing makes me sick to my stomach. Trevor may be misinformed and spouting flawed arguments, but that is no reason to attack him with such vulgar malice. Thanks for confirming all of the negative stereotypes theists have against us, it really makes expressing my minority view of the world a WHOLE lot easier (sarcasm, obviously). What do you have against simply refuting his arguments? I’m sure he’d get it much more quickly if it isn’t hidden in a deluge of personal attacks.
Trevor – If you never come back to this site again, I’d understand why. However, if you do end up reading this, I want you to know that there are those of us out there who can effectively argue our points without resorting to juvinile abuse. We just tend to be quieter. If you truly want to discuss atheism and discover why we reject religion, feel free to e-mail me at karnevil54@yahoo.com. You’ll get actual answers, no age-based discrimination (I’m only 16 myself), and, most of all, no attacks on your intelligence. That’s not how I feel is the best way to present my case. However, if you’re only doing this to get a rise out of them, don’t waste your time with me, because I won’t take your bait. I’d love to talk to you too Dan, if you’ve gotten tired of all the negativity thrown around here.
To the rest of you – My e-mail’s right there above, come on and flame me if you wish. It’ll just provide more evidence of your inability to hold a rational debate.
1 February 2006, on 12:14 am
Trevor,
You’re very silly- you’re not able to see the subtle differences in your own arguments. Of course Hitler was wrong, but during the European plague years, he would have been right. Duh. The bible is not a rational standard. But Hitler has nothing to do with this- I believe he existed whereas the bible is fiction. What do you define as “right/wrong” that would work as a compromise between my beliefs and yours? If you can’t compromise, you don’t belong in a democratic society. I’ve already answered your prior questions, now answer mine.
Adam,
The term is “ageism” and when you’re fifteen years older, you may see the humor in all of this and think of teenagers as having MICS (DSM-IV: Misplaced Individual Confidence Syndrome). Unfortunately, being sixteen, you have the all the credibility of a chode. Build some ethos before you come here, or at least get the joke before acting like a dickhead.
1 February 2006, on 12:15 am
Man. I have a lot of work to do and was barely able to scan much of this. Must come back later.
I agree with Lya… If Trevor is at all representative of the critical thinking skills of those who will inherit this nation, I am leaving now. Even at 14 I could have jumped rope with his flaccid brain.
1 February 2006, on 12:34 am
And Adam: how high and mighty of you. Even a cursory glance at this thread shows Trevor came in swinging and was nasty and self-righteous from the start. I have thug kids in my neighborhood his age that I would defend myself just as vehemently against, but in a different way. He’s a little asshole who came into someone else’s house and spouted typical religious venom. He gets no sympathy from me. Little boys shouldn’t play with the big kids with such rude attitudes and expect not to get stomped. If this is the worst thing that has ever happened to him in his little teenage life, I can only say boo-hoo.
1 February 2006, on 12:47 am
And one other thing I can’t help but add: the reason theists get under our skin so much sometimes is the very intent of Bob’s original post. Do you tell me, theist, that I cannot be an ethical or moral human being without your hateful belief system? It is the height of hyprocicy, since religion and racism are the greatest fuels for hatred and destruction the world has ever known. And yet you point your figers at us. The World Trade Center, Falwell and Robertson claimed, was destroyed because of secular humanism, not fanatical religion. Damn. That’s some gall. And is enough to make us feel like the most persecuted minority on earth. *That’s* why we fight back and fight back hard.
1 February 2006, on 12:53 am
Adam,
Anyone who spouts the kind of unintelligent sycophant crap that the little twit trevor did will get the same treatment from me *regardless* of age. Did you read what he wrote in message 27 suggesting that the massacre of atheist would be ok if as he put it the “atheistic movement” grew in the U.S. ? Also his insane question of whether hitler’s germany was right ? For crying out loud only the absolute WORST kind of hateful racist would think that bastard’s brand of evil was right. At 14 he already comes across as the worst kind of christian – clearly ignorant and uneducated, hateful, spewing scripture and dogma and to what end on an atheist forum ? Personally I think he’s even worse than sable chicky. I suspect he’s in some sort of remedial or reform catholic school and is frequently in trouble.
Also keep in mind that if atheists continue to allow theists any consideration and not ridicule them then the problem of dominance by the religious right in this country will continue. It’s long overdue that something is done about these idiots.
1 February 2006, on 3:13 am
EoR-I already explained the massacre thing!THats not what i meant!I’ll explain what i mean here,and crystal finally answered the questions,so I’ll probably leave.
Crystal-”Who fucking cares? Everyone has their own definition of wrong and right.”
THink about that…I dont care how old you are or how many years of religious study you’ve had,or how many years of Uni you’ve had.”everyone has their own definition of wrong” Don’t you see where this is flawed??I’m not denying that atheists have morals,I’m not denying that atheists have legitimate feelings(of course they do).BUT,if we(humans) came about thru a process of natural selection and chance,and there is no God then we have nothing metaphysical to define what is right and what is wrong.Do you think your morals came about thru seeing that somethings helpe society and somethings didn’t?Let’s go back to crystals words “everyone has their own definition of wrong” now some of you may have kids,if you dont,I think you can imagine(i can).
If a man wanted to rape your daughter(because everyone has their own definition of wrong,this was fine with him,he enjoyes raping small children)but for you,this is terrible,this is your daughter,your own flesh,are you just going to stand aside?And say “well you dont define this as wrong so i think i’ll just let you rape my daughter”.This kind of thinking only leads to chaos.Now,cleary if you have something like the bible,it cleary defines what is right and what is wrong.
EoR-”At 14 he already comes across as the worst kind of christian – clearly ignorant and uneducated, hateful, spewing scripture and dogma and to what end on an atheist forum ?”
Me-I never once quoted scripture!
1 February 2006, on 3:17 am
Adam-If you truly want to discuss atheism and discover why we reject religion, feel free to e-mail me at karnevil54@yahoo.com
Me-THanks, you seem much more rational.
1 February 2006, on 3:27 am
“NATURAL THAT WE WOULD EVOLVE TO HAVE SUCH EMOTIONS AND EMPATHY FOR
OTHERS!!!!!”
If I was to stop believing in God right now…would you show me just what that empathy, that you are talking about looks like? Or are you already showing it to Trevor…and we just can’t see it through all the crystal clear F-words.
haha,so true!
1 February 2006, on 3:31 am
Ford-Do you even give a fuck about the people who lost their lives and families in horrible ways?!! I mean do you REALLY fucking care?
I live in Belgium,ok ford?,i see the monuments everyday,i know people that lost sisters and brothers to the ss troops,do not presume to tell me if i care or not!that is completly assinine.And yes,i do care.
1 February 2006, on 6:36 am
Trevor: You evoke the Nazis again. You do realize that Godwin’s Law gives us the right to stop talking to you once and for all the moment you bring up the trope of Nazism, right?
How pedestrian.
And yes, we did develop empathy and social bonding because it helped society, and because we are social animals, just like dolphins. For instance, this is why, in both species, when the female is in estrus it is not visible externally. It encouraged males to stick around and mate repeatedly with the same females, which led to them forming more permanent bonds than other animals did, ultimately providing shelter and food to mates and offspring. This also amply explains why both species are among the only ones on the planet that developed an enjoyment of sex for non-procreative purposes.
I say these theories, which are being tested and proven in great numbers each day, are far more rational than crediting morality and empathy to a book the age of which is only one tiny fraction of the age of humanity itself. Dolphins have been observed showing empathy, self-sacrificing, etc. Do they read the bibble, too?
1 February 2006, on 6:43 am
PS: Dramatic shifts in style and language, plus claims like “I know people that lost sisters and brothers to the ss troops” (highly unlikely for a 14-year-old, even in Belgium… sisters and brothers?? If you’d said grandparents, you might have had a little credibility), have put Trevor on my “Suspected of Being a Completely Full of Shit Baiter” list. I no longer trust thing one that he says. He’s not 14, folks. He’s not from Belgium. And he definitely does not know anyone whose sisters and brothers were killed by the SS. I think we’ve all been had by a baiting clown.
1 February 2006, on 6:51 am
Another point in the Case Against Trevor’s Legitimacy: Intelligent Design holds almost no sway whatsoever outside of the United States, and evolution is barely questioned in every other Western country. He’s from Belgium yet he talks like he is from Kansas? I doubt it very much. He simply would not have had such indoctrination in someplace like Belgium. Anyone who has been following the myriad stories we have posted and discussed on the subject knows that ID is a distinctly American form of idiocy and has gotten no traction whatsoever in Europe.
Fooey. This guy is full of shit. If he’s even a guy, or even 14, or even Belgian, or even a Christian. All bets are off, Trevor. You forfeit. Time to shut the fuck up now.
1 February 2006, on 6:57 am
sean-I dont what you expect me to think after reading your comment.So i’ll tell you “so what!!??”.People have insticts,dolphins have insticts.People have an inate sense(given by God,hosted on the brain) that involves the will,the emotions and the inteligence,dolphins dont.Dolphins dont have a moral code,they’re thought is too survive.sure,they’ll help drowning people,but do u think that if a drowning person was stabbing one of its young it would help the person?Emphatically no,it would save its young then,most likely, attack the person.On the other hand snakes eat its young when they are hungry.Animals dont have a moral code…they have insticts.The whole point of my argument is that people, in the absence of a clear moral code(given by a metaphysical God),will do whatever is best for themselves,not what is best for society!back to the man raping daughter analogy,is it in the best interest of society for him to rape her?no.but for him,it might bring pleasure,so since “everyone has a different definition of wrong” its fine for him,not fine for the dad,so the dad kills him,the rapist brother doesnt like that,so he kills the dad,pretty soon everyone is killing everyone…or massacring thousands in rwanda…YOu have to have a moral code that is given by a metaphysical being,it cannot come from man…man will always disagree(this forum is proving that fact)….
1 February 2006, on 6:59 am
I’m from GA,living in belgium and yes i am 14!!And yes i do know a lady whos brother was killed by ss troops,her name is miriam and shes flemish!AGH…
1 February 2006, on 7:00 am
I’m so done…no one here even begins to listen to my arguments…i really am leaving this time…
1 February 2006, on 7:08 am
More proof that Trevor is a fraud:
because(within the atheistic worldview), President Bush and his southern accent is no less than retarded than you and your “God is 4 suckers” blog.
What Belgian kid would care about such American provincialism, or even refer to Bush’s manner of speech as a “Southern accent”? What, Southern Belgium?
Trevor: you’re a liar and a sham.
Why I am responding to him I don’t know — maybe cuz now that I know that you are a flaming liar you are worth a kick or two — but check out this stupidity:
Dolphins dont have a moral code,they’re thought is too survive.
Yeah. Humans don’t act on any kind of survival instinct or anything.
But actually, dolphins do seem to have a moral code and we have witnessed them self-sacrificing for the greater good of the group and forming strong social bonds. I’ve already said this. Read, you idiot. Shut your pie hole and pick up a book.
You’re a waterhead of the highest order to think morality can only come from a metaphysical source. I don’t run around raping and killing people and I don’t believe in your god any more than the tooth fairy. As we have said, if that’s all that keeps you from being a rapist and a murderer, you’re a sick fuck.
Dolphins aren’t merely animals… Mountains of evidence show they are highly developed social beings, just like us. The point is that morality can develop through evolution and does not need fantasy novels to dictate it.
I can see why everyone else described talking to as being like throwing pebbles at a brick wall. Damn, you’re dumb. And you’re not even 14, nor are you Belgian. You’re just fucking dumb.
1 February 2006, on 7:13 am
Run away, little Trevor. Maybe in the future you will learn to respect your elders. Clearly you learned nothing here and instead expected us all to “learn” from your repetitious clichés and tired self-righteousness. Hope you manage to educate yourself before you end up serving me my fries and Coke 10 years from now.
1 February 2006, on 8:38 am
Trevor,
From Georgia? That explains a lot.
1 February 2006, on 10:23 am
Okay, okay, I admit it. You got me. I thought I was going to get away with it, but now I know it’s no use…
Lya, I found Trevor online, and offered him $100 to come on GiFS to get my comments numbers up. I mean, come on, Lya, you came out of nowhere and passed 200 fucking comments! What the hell! No way! I just couldn’t have that! I couldn’t! I couldn’t! AAAAAAGGGHHHH!
1 February 2006, on 12:20 pm
This just in:
“In another hemisphere, Dr. Richard Connor, studying dolphins in Shark Bay in Western Australia, has documented cases of males kidnapping and holding females captive, sometimes for months at a time.”
(Bad example of moral behaviour.)
“Dr. Connor is especially intrigued by relationships between the males. To him it’s like cracking the code of a secret society. These alliances can last for a dozen years or more. The strategy is designed to keep females from mating with other males so that the alliance will have the most offspring.”
(Dolphins form gangs and systematically oppress females)
http://monkeymiadolphins.org/
1 February 2006, on 1:34 pm
I just wanted to pop in and say
Jesus was a homosexual axe wielding serial killer, there is no god or gods, astrology is bullshit, and we evolved from a common ancestor along with apes.
Thank you, now prove me wrong.
1 February 2006, on 1:37 pm
Trevor
My argument against intelligent design as good science is its lack of a scientific tractability. A tractable theory connects with other good science, forming larger structures of evidentiary support and allowing novel predictions and retro-dictions of phenomena.
Methodological naturalism (and science) are about evidence. There is no evidence for intelligent design in the origins of species. When and if somebody finds it, it will be a part of science. So far there is no evidence. It does not belong in any public school untill it proves itself good science.
1 February 2006, on 2:18 pm
Rockstar,
You’ve been missing some great stuff while you’ve been gone- good to see you again.
Damn, this looks like it will also break two hundred (as long as the Trevor-beast keeps flooding us with idiocy). Keep up the good work, gang!
1 February 2006, on 5:29 pm
Uh, I don’t even see any point in repsonding to this fucking troll, but I’m apparently a fucking masochist, so…
The whole fucking point of my goddamn post was to answer your fucking “how do you decide what is right and wrong” bullshit. You keep fucking implying that Hitler was only wrong because the bible says so and therefore us atheists couldn’t make that judgment because we don’t believe in god and shit. Fuck off, I was answering your fucking question that you kept insisting we answer, you asked how we could tell if hitler was wrong. I answered. You can now go fuck yourself. If you purposly misinterpret and lie about shit again you will simply be ignored.
So you have empathy? You understand what the pain is like (supposedly)? Then WHY THE FUCK do you keep asking us how we make moral judgments? Do you assume non-believers don’t feel this shit? Now you know why we make the fucking judgments we do, you know we make such judments because it is just how people work, so why the fuck do you persist in your “atheists ain’t got no morals” bullshit?
You’re from belgium? Is that what Kansans call themselves now? Care to explain
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”.
It’s kind of odd the way you were refering to America there like the religious state of our nation mattered to you in “belgium”. Even if you have, so the fuck what? You’re fourteen and you had brothers and sisters, you know, AS IN SIBLINGS, dieing in the holocaust? What are your parents, like fucking 90? My fucking grandfather was born in the middle of WW2 and he was a pretty old fucker, you’re trying to tell me that you actually had siblings go through that shit? And if so, so what? I mean, it would be horrible, but it’s not like you’re any closer to them than anybody else that died over fifty years before you came into existence, you wanna start talking about shit that far back, I’m sure any of us could dredge up some old family nightmare from some relative that was alive in that period of time.
Don’t you fucking attack me for answering your stupid questions. You came on here insulting us and demanding to know how we could consider ourselves moral without the bullshit that is jesus. You insulted us and asked us questions that we answered several times, I answered your question, you fucking get all “my brothers and sisters died in the holocaust and I live in belgium” and act as if I’ve done some horrible fucking wrong. You’re the one that suggested a massacre of secular humanists and atheists, you’re the one that came here insulting us and spewing out false bullshit and fallacious arguments and acting like you were dominating the argument and continue to insult us by telling us that we’re fools that just don’t understand your arguments. Don’t you dare try to whack me with a hammer of shame or guilt trip me for not bending over and taking it up the ass from the likes of you.
Get off of your fucking moral high horse or go play speedbump. You want to argue? Give us an argument. You think we’re misinterpreting what you said? Show us where we went wrong. We aren’t just big ignorant atheist bullies. There have been plenty of nice and rational religious folks to come in here and provide real arguments and treat us better than some pond scum that needs to be driven from the world and destroyed. Of course you fall into the catagory of total fucktard. Now go play crucifiction with your sunday school friends you asshole.
1 February 2006, on 7:02 pm
At least he left without saying gawd bless you or some other bullshit.
1 February 2006, on 8:20 pm
Marcus – I deliberately did not use the term ageism. It has been hijacked by teenagers wishing to evade personal responsibility, and that isn’t what I’m trying to do. However, when someone is attacked as “playing the stereotypical teenage idiot role” (Ford) or with “Fuck you, baby boy” (Lya Kahlo), it should be obvious that he would feel that his arguments are being ignored simply due to his age. I am offering him the opportunity to talk to someone around the same age as he claims to be and promising that I will judge his arguments based solely on merit. I personally don’t care how much credibility I have in your eyes, because I think my age will give kme more credibility in Trevor’s.
1 February 2006, on 8:46 pm
Sean – Oh, so all of a sudden I am acting “high and mighty” because I condemn behavior I think is inappropriate and harmful to atheism in general. Unless you think you are “high and mighty” for condemning theism, I cannot be considered the same for condemning pointless insulting. As for your claim about Trevor acting “nasty and self-righteous from the start,” just take a look back at the earliers comments:
Comment 4: Trevor asks a question about atheism and morality. This is a question many theists have, and though he didn’t sugar-coat his presentation of it, neither did he go out of his way to insult any of you. A polite response answering his querey would be in order. Instead, we got…
Comment 5 (Marcus): “You are obviously not intelligent enough to play here. Get back in the sandbox where you belong.
Furthermore, what’s with all the fucking commas? Did you learn composition from a six-year old?”
Very mature, Marcus. I don’t see a word about atheism and morality. You attack his intelligence without giving a reason for it, and you attack his typing, which really doesn’t have anything to do with the matter at hand.
Comment 6: Trevor responds by asking Marcus to explain why he is so unintelligent.
Comment 7: Marcus states Trevor is “not worth rational conversation,” but still doesn’t explain why. How is using this argument — “Your prior post is proof enough that I need not “refute” you lack of intelligence” — any different than a Christian “proving” God by saying The Bible is proof enough that he needs not “refute” your lack of faith?
Comment 8: Lya Kahlo calls Trevor a “dipshit” who’s “over his head,” still with no real reason for this. The rest of the comments are basically more of the same.
Even you, Sean, call him a “little asshole” without him having attacked you in any way. It is clear that the atheists were the ones who were “nasty and self-righteous from the start.” If this is the impression that we give all inquisitive theists, it is no wonder that they reject us out of hand, and no wonder that I, who am innocent of this behavior, get stereotyped as bitter and immoral because of it.
1 February 2006, on 9:08 pm
Enemy of Religion – I think you misunderstood both of his comments. He’s not advocating mass murder, he’s only saying that these will be the results of a spread of atheist thought. Obviously, he’s very wrong, but that’s why we have to correct instead of insult him, so he won’t spread falsehoods like that anymore. As for your claim that only by ridiculing religion will we free ourselves of its grasp over society, you need only look at 9/11 to see what the religious do when they feel their way of life is under attack. The terrorist attacks only made the religious right stronger and more willing to encroach upon our constitutional rights. Remember, they vastly outnumber us. Your solution is akin to pulling on a tiger’s tail — it will only result in a powerful anti-atheist backlash. If we made more of an effort to influence with reason instead of rage, people will see that we are not trying to insult their intelligence and will be more receptive to our message.
1 February 2006, on 9:11 pm
Adam -
You don’t deal with the bullshit they do everyday. Nor do you obviously see the impact that the religious sect has on our daily lives and futures. I admit that, at your age, I would have reacted in the same manner. But when you grow up and view the world for what it is, rather than the smoke and mirrors seen in high school, you’ll understand. At times, I find it offensive to atheists that theists are treated by many of the GIFS crew as pieces of shit from the start. But it’s due to pure frustration. Something you have yet to deal with. When you realize that the President of the United States is trying to force an unwanted child on you (abortion rights) or stop the production of pharmaceuticals that could save many of your fellow citizen’s lives (stem cell research) or prevent your gay friends from leading happy lives with the same rights as you (gay marriage) JUST BECAUSE GAWD SAYS SO, you’ll understand.
1 February 2006, on 9:21 pm
Look at me! I’m Adam! I don’t understand the difference between constructive debate and purposeful, focused ridicule! I think the internet matters! I think everyone tells the truth on the internet and wants to be empathic! I think that we can live gracefully with xians who vote for assholes that trample our basic rights!
“You attack his intelligence without giving a reason for it, and you attack his typing, which really doesn’t have anything to do with the matter at hand.”
Of course composition is a reflection of intelligence and therefore a reflection of ability to debate. You might learn that once you attend a major, secular university.
Trevor initially refers to the regulars here as “mindless” and imply that atheists are inherently immoral. Is that enough “reason” for you, o great and wise teenager? We have every right to slam him. Beside, I’m sure you’ve noted that this website is called “God is for Suckers!” not “Rational Atheistic Discussion with Theistic Scholars and Discussion Leading to Consensual Compromise”- ridicule is our right.
When you get older, you will realize that not everyone around you is capable of rational thought and you’ll let go of being civil to the xian dross that will, with impunity, insult and shun you. At this moment, I realize that you are yet a novice and I won’t be too harsh on you. I reserve actual argument for those worthy of it; unfortunately, you sound like a xian sock-puppet and a plant.
Until you’ve experienced more of the world, shut up and watch. Of course, you really don’t know anything because you’re sixteen- you’re a FUCKING KID. Come see me when you have at least one titular acronym following your name.
1 February 2006, on 9:50 pm
Well, Adam, let’s take a look at Trevor’s first post
“So,I’ve been reading your site,and basically,all you do is mindlessly slam President Bush and God.”
So his very first sentence is basically an insult, it’s not constructive criticism by any means because he isn’t telling us specifically what we’re doing wrong, he takes no time to refute any of the arguments we’ve made on this site and claims we just bash god and Bush on a knee jerk reaction.
“So let me ask you something,you don’t belive in God,Therefore your an atheist,now,if theres no God then there’s no moral code,correct?and theres no room for criticism,right?because(within the atheistic worldview), President Bush and his southern accent is no less than retarded than you and your “God is 4 suckers” blog.You cant say anything about anyone,because (in your worldview) everything is equal,no one can criticize,no can even take praise for anything…how is one thing anymore praiseworthy than anything else?how is anything any more worth critisizing?…”
This too is just a big fucking insult, he shows no reasoning in this comment, somehow he goes from you don’t believe in god to therefore you don’t think anything is criticizable yet you criticize people and religion. He doesn’t explain how we ever came to believe we can’t criticize anything and that everything is equal. We’ve never even said anything that could be misinterpreted that way, as a matter of fact, the posters on this site have often criticized such a view of new age bull that says everything has equal merit. It is fairly obvious that he didn’t come to this conclusion via any rational thinking and it is at the same time very insulting to our intelligence. I don’t think it is a mere coincidence that he said something that could easily be interpreted as and insult with no rationale behind it.
Let’s skip a few more dumbass posts from him and move to comment #27 shall we:
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”
He basically states here that if the atheists get rowdy the good ol’ christchin folk might find it neccessary to have themselves a good ol’ jihad.
After Trevor asks us about “irredubly complexity” (how he likes to spell it), Lya points him in the direction of a good site to help debunk that outright shit. Trevor responds with:
“LOL…you obviously dont know what irredubly complexity is…or you would explain it to me…AHAH…”
Fuck, he might as well have thrown a few neener-neener-neeener’s in there as well. I haven’t seen people argue like this since I was fucking ten years old.
We have had some religious folks we like come by here and not cause any problems, asking legit questions nicely that haven’t been debunked a billion times, and they were honestly curious. Look at Trevor’s first comment. He’s hardly asking, it’s more like he’s stating what we are and then throwing a “right?” at the end. Not the very “AHA!!” way he liked to do things at first, Lya didn’t come right out and tell him about how much bullshit irreducible complexity was, because it’s been done a number of times already by profesionals, so she linked him to an answer, being way more generous than Trevor deserved after his inflammatory entrance and the fact that if he did a quick google search with “irreducible compexity debunked” or something of that nature he could easily have seen the argument of the anti ID people and, using critical thinking skills he should have (but obviously doesn’t) compared and made a decision based on the evidence he’d been presented with, and his response was of the most juvenile kind I think I’ve ever seen on GifS.
I don’t think he deserves shit, why do atheists have to carry the fucking burden of everyone else? The religious assholes of the world outnumber the not-so-bad religious and atheists by a very large percent, they, for the most part, make the rules of the planet, and kill and beat and harass people like us, and come in here spewing their incoherant bullshit without even stopping to consider our position, prefering to make up their own straw man positions that they assume we feel (which are always rediculous charicatures of human beings that only serve to convince them that we’re just subsentient lumps of meat sent by the devil to corrupt them), and we still act very generous, not insulting their position we feel is obviously bullshit, and they continue to call us names and cry and bitch and whine about how oppressed they are by us elites, and then beat a few of us for suggesting a course teaching ID as mythology. So what the fuck are we supposed to do Adam? We’ve done everything but suck their collective dicks (and I’m sure some atheist, somewhere has been forced to do something equally or more degrading in a prison or one of those christian boot-camps in jamaica where some uppity rich conservative assclown christians decided to send their kid for not being in the holy spirit enough) after literally all of human history of their oppression and jihads and holocausts. Why should we give trevor here, who doesn’t want to listen to us, but to instead preach how fucking evil we are, a position we’ve heard before and some of us have even held at earlier points in our life and have fully debunked over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again without hearing any rational response back, such special treatment when he would just as soon have us all hanging from a rope?
1 February 2006, on 10:08 pm
Crystal – I’m sure I deal with much more of their bullshit than you do. I currently attend a Catholic school, not because my immediate family is Catholic (they are all atheists), but because it offers the best relatively inexpensive education in the area. However, with the good comes considerable bad. Every day I have to listen to them spew their ridiculous doctrines without the ability to defend my position for fear of losing this education, and this is sometimes frustrating beyond belief. I have listened to a man I thought was most positive person in the world tell me how he lost his repect for a student he had had a very close relationship with for four years simply because this student told him that he didn’t believe in God. Just today I heard a lecture which was focused on why homosexual intercourse is immoral. I deal with peers every day who have told me that I am going to hell when I die. Surely I have every right to be frustrated with them. However, I also know that I will gain nothing by “treating them as pieces of shit from the start.” There are far more constructive ways to deal with frustration. If you wish to defend the atheist who lashes out at the theist because his emotions have triumphed over his rationality, you must also defend the theist who admits that he can’t prove god but “feels” that he must exist.
As for your suggestion that I don’t understand the impact that theism has on the world, I have to say that I find that a little condescending. 16 is certainly old enough to be well-versed in an area with as much impact as government, and I think that anyone disinterested in this is irresponsible as a citizen in a democracy. A very good friend of mine is a type-1 diabetic, and I know that stem cell research may find a way to cure his condition. However, I also know that I will be able to help him better through spreading rationality than through spreading anger and ill-will towards atheism. Is it so wrong for me to ask for you to suck up some of your rage for the good of the world?
1 February 2006, on 10:12 pm
Is it so wrong for me to ask for you to suck up some of your rage for the good of the world?
Well, actually: for here, on this blog, yes, it is.
1 February 2006, on 10:37 pm
Adam -
I don’t need to suck up my rage for the good of the world. I’ll be damned if I see this country (and my future career) go down the drain because of some ignorant assholes.
1 February 2006, on 10:43 pm
“Is it so wrong for me to ask for you to suck up some of your rage for the good of the world?”
YES it most certainly is. I’m over twice your age and have been an atheist all my life and I’m sick and tired of all the religious incursion into our lives. This has gotten *much* worse since dubya dumbass attained power as his stupid fanatical beliefs has emboldened other stupid christian fanatics to further invade everyone’s lives as evidenced by things like the stupid “intelligent design” crap, the Terry Schiavo right to die case, the constant attempts to overturn Roe vs. Wade and the battle over stem cell research. Enough is enough, it’s long overdue that atheists start to push back and push back hard. The U.S. Constitution specifies a separation of church and state and this needs to be *fully* enforced. No more laws based on religion, no more faith-based initiatives, no more special considerations or taxes breaks for religious organizations, no more mention of any deity on money or in oaths or pledges, NO MORE !! Religious fools need to keep their stupid personal beliefs *personal*, they can pray all they want but no more proselytizing, no more pushing their stupid beliefs upon everyone. Trying to be rational with religious people just isn’t going to work, it’s been tried. You generally can’t rationalize with people who have incorporated the irrational into they way of life.
About trevor’s evil comment:
“whats right for Bin laden isnt whats right for me…whats right for the Rwandian government to massacre 40,000 people isnt whats right in America..however if the humanist and atheistic thought continues to grow at this rate it might soon be the case…”
He’s saying that if the number of non-believers continues to grow in America then fanatics will attempt to massacre them. Do you really expect anyone be cordial to him after that ? On top of that he brings up hitler an asks the completely insane question “was hitler was wrong” as if atheists don’t have morals because we don’t believe in stupid fairy tales, that’s an outright insult and was responded to accordingly.
Why the heck are you defending this little piece of crap ?? Also his grammar and spelling sucks, I had far better command of the English language when I was 6 years old.
In all honesty you simply do not have the life experience to question people and make judgement calls.
1 February 2006, on 10:45 pm
Marcus — “I don’t understand the difference between constructive debate and purposeful, focused ridicule!” I think I make it pretty clear that I belive that constructive debate is GOOD and purposeful, forced ridicule is BAD. That’s about the biggest difference I can think of.
“Of course composition is a reflection of intelligence and therefore a reflection of ability to debate. You might learn that once you attend a major, secular university.” Giving a reason for you attacking his intelligence in post 163 doesn’t give you an excuse for not doing it in post 7 when he was reading. Besides, I never argued that Trevor was in any way intelligent. He hasn’t given me any sign that he is, though he hasn’t shown any particular unintelligence either, just ignorance about a few subjects. In any case, if you think that the fact that you are smarter than he is gives you a free pass to ridicule him without providing a valid reason, than you have a lot to learn about social behavior. Perhaps they don’t teach that in major, secular universities.
Yes, Trevor was wrong in calling this site’s articles mindless, as a careful reading of the site should dispel that notion immediately. However, did that really call for the deluge of insults you heaped on him? Simply telling him to read more carefully would have probably have had an equal chance of success without immediately predisposing him against your arguments. As for his accusation that atheism is immoral, he provided you a golden opportunity to debunk a common misconception about atheism that he holds, the idea that the lack of an absolute moral code implies the lack of morality. Instead, your irrational ranting probably left him convinced that the opposite was true. Sure, it might help you deal with frustration, but does it help create a new atheist? Not at all.
I also can’t deny that ridicule is your right. That doesn’t make it a positive thing, though. Trevor has every right to hold Christian beliefs and preach Intelligent Design, but I would still argue that they are incorrect. Your right to freedom of speech could have been used in a much more constructive way.
As for your claim that I am a christian plant, it sounds a whole lot like one of george bush’s “with us or against us” arguments. Perhaps I am just an atheist who happens to disagree with you on a certain issue. If me typing FUCK JESUS helps to convince you that I do not worship him in any way, I will without a second thought. FUCK JESUS!!!!!!
Finally, if you’re still here in six years, we can have this debate again. By that time, I should have a degree, and we’ll see if I still feel the same way. However, if higher education ends up turning me into an angry, elitist prick (which, by the way, I don’t believe it will), maybe that job flipping burgers doesn’t sound so bad after all.
1 February 2006, on 11:14 pm
Hmmm… Cognitive dissonance…
1 February 2006, on 11:50 pm
You know, it’s interesting how Trevor sparked this many comments.
Forgive me, everybody, if I’m sounding naive and caught up in a temporary idealistic euphoria, but I have been thinking about Adam’s position, at first it sounded like he was telling us just to be nice, but now it’s taking on more of a tactful form, it was a position favored, to some degree, by Carl Sagan right? I don’t know, just a thought. I don’t think he’s saying we’re too mean to the theists so much as he’s saying we could try winning some of them over. I don’t fully agree with him, some people won’t change. That much has been demonstrated, but maybe in this one case Adam has some merit. A 14 year old (believable) is someone we probably could’ve provided with useful information, but have instead potentially alienated from any potential change he could’ve made. Of course if this is true we can’t be blamed, he didn’t tell us first off and it’s almost impossible to distinguish between those who can change and who can’t, because they both say pretty stupid things. I think I understand Adam’s position, but don’t fully agree with it.
2 February 2006, on 12:01 am
The comments of Bob, Crystal, Enemy of Religion, and Ford make me wonder if I haven’t been clear enough in expressing my point of view. Therefore, I am posting the following list of my points of argument. This will make debating them a lot easier:
1. Theists like Trevor are ignorant, and it is better to attempt to change ignorance than to mock it.
2. By attacking theists, one causes them to become more defensive about their religion.
3. Through the use of reason, we can convert theists to a more rational way of thought.
4. The consequences of creating more rational thinkers are positive while the consequences of causing theists to become more defensive are negative.
If anyone believes any of these statements are flawed, please announce why. If you believe that anything I have said does not naturally flow from these statements, please tell me. If neither of these is the case, then explain how you could hold a point of view other than mine on this issue. Hopefully, I have clarified what I mean.
However, then again maybe Ford is refering to the fact that I implied Marcus is a prick. This, though is very different from he did to Trevor. In his ignorance, Trevor is like an infant. If an infant is torturing a puppy, you do not hold him responsible for it. He is unable to see why atheism does not imply immorality because he is misinformed about the nature of atheism. Marcus, however, was not insulting Trevor out of ignorance of proper social behavior. By living in society, a healthy human being is expected to learn to combat this ignorance, and Marcus either hasn’t bothered to put the effort into this or isn’t applying the lessons he has learned. Therefore, I feel justified in calling Marcus a prick; his pointless, harmful behavior makes him one in my book.
Please note, however, that the analogy is just an analogy. I am not comparing Trevor’s intelligence or his ability to behave socially to an infant’s, merely his ignorance in the field of atheism. As such, he would not be justified in killing people or even torturing puppies because he believes god commands it. This would show ignorance of proper social behavior, and by living in society, you are expected to learn to combat that. Likewise, by talking to atheists, you should be able to gain knowledge to combat ignorance of atheism. However, the readers of GifS have obviously failed in helping this process along.
2 February 2006, on 12:38 am
Ford – I certainly don’t believe that anyone should be mean to anybody else without a valid reason, and, as I have argued, Trevor’s ignorance about atheism is not a valid reason by itself. Let me say though that if a theist is immune to rationality and is participating in any kind of harmful behavior because of this (homophobia, opposition to abortion, etc.) then they have proven that they are deserving of criticism. I think Trevor has been indoctrinated with the belief that atheists are immoral, and that it would be better to try to change this behavior than to vilify him for it, not only because he might be receptive to this but also because I just don’t think he is at fault for this belief and to attack him mercilessly as you did is just cruel. However, if Trevor was to advocate the killing of atheists (which I don’t believe was the real intent of comment 27), then he is advocating an anti-social act and is deserving of any insult you wish to heap on him and a whole lot worse.
However, I know from experience that when you expose a theist to actual information and logical reasoning pertaining to his belief, there is a chance that he will “see the light.” We freethinkers need all the help we can get numbers-wise, so we must always remain conscious of this. To answer your question of how we can tell those who can change from those who can’t, I would advocate that we consider every theist innocent (of insurmountable mental defect) until proven guilty. If we try to convert every one who stumbles onto this site, we might get some who stick, and I think getting even one person to reject a hateful doctrine will be worth to minimal additional effort it will take. After all, no man is an island, and one person’s change could spread to others. It’s the butterfly effect — you’ll never know how much good you can do with just a little work. What really angered me about the way the people here treated Trevor was that they took an opportunity for a potentially enormous positive and turned it into negative for no other reason than to take out some extra anger.
By the way, I’m flattered that you saw shades of Carl Sagan in my comments. I consider him one of the greatest influences on the way I think. My mother has always been a huge Sagan fan, and I remember reading The Demon Haunted World for the first time when I was 9 or 10.
2 February 2006, on 12:41 am
Messy discussion. Okay let’s put it this way, let’s say we have a destination and restrictions on how to get there, but everything that=getting to the destination AND !violating the restrictions is fair game. Ja? Ja.
My hands look sort of weird right now.
2 February 2006, on 12:49 am
You’re welcome. My first Carl Sagan book too. I think we need to lighten up in here a bit. We see a war going on and we get our combat face on. Much more productive and healthier discussion if we aren’t at each other’s throats. Certainly we can be angry with what theists are doing but we aren’t really doing that anymore, not since Trevor stopped participating, we’ve bascially just been in a name calling contest with each other about our particular differences in opinion on the sort of tactics we should use. Seriously, once you loosen up and take a look at what has been going on in this comments as of late it feels like you’re in a virtual nuthouse.
2 February 2006, on 1:42 am
I think part of the problem is where certain people are and what they are surrounded with. Some people here live surrounded by ignorant, mean-spirited theists and react the way Trevor was reacted to as kind of a reflex at this point, or at least as an outlet for frustration. I am lucky enough to live in a major and fairly liberal metropolitan area where religion is much more of a personal focus than a community one. I of course have the occasional run in and obviously am affected by things on the national level, but overall, I don’t run into condom-hating pharmacists like Marcus does, or any of the other frustrations detailed here by posters that they experience in their daily lives. As a result, I can be more jovial but I also get angry at times, although not with the same intensity.
2 February 2006, on 3:46 am
Ryan is back.
I damn near wet my pants, and gave myself a pearl necklace by chance.
Dammit Ryan. I have been awaiting your return for days…
2 February 2006, on 4:26 am
hi everyone,i apreciate adams comments,but i really don’t care(now) if you critisize me,but please try and answer my questions in regard to atheism.Heres something ive been thinking about:
Evolution says that most change is an improvement due to natural selection.This presents some difficulty if you belive the way crystal does(everyone has their own definition of wrong).If something is improving then there must be some absolute standard of good(and evil,since evil is a perversion of good) above and outside the cosmic process to which the improvement can aproximate… C.S lewis says: “there is no sense in talking of becoming better if becoming better simply means “what we are becoming”-it is like congratulating yourself on reaching your destination and defining destination as “the place you have reached”".so my question is,how can you(as atheists)say we’re getting better,if there’s nothing to aproximate “better” by??
2 February 2006, on 4:56 am
**or if better is different for everyone
2 February 2006, on 7:24 am
“Lya, I found Trevor online, and offered him $100 to come on GiFS to get my comments numbers up. I mean, come on, Lya, you came out of nowhere and passed 200 fucking comments! What the hell! No way! I just couldn’t have that! I couldn’t! I couldn’t! AAAAAAGGGHHHH! ”
Damnit BOB! I am SO going to get Jesus to smite your ass for this! Just you wait man! Just you wait!
(p.s. Is that why you pay Sable to be here too?
)
And for those whining YET AGAIN about language/mocking – shove it. You don’t get to tell us how to play in our own house. No one asked these disphits to come here. well, except BOB.
2 February 2006, on 7:27 am
“Trevor has every right to hold Christian beliefs and preach Intelligent Design, but I would still argue that they are incorrect.”
Sure he does. But not here.
And RYAN! Where have YOU been young man?
2 February 2006, on 7:35 am
For the IDiots on the board – Here’s articles on Behe being spanked by real scientists.
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/ooo_that_has_gotta_sting/
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/behe_spanked_again.php
2 February 2006, on 12:24 pm
Stupid little trevor,
If you really want to try and understand evolution then you should goto a place called a library and take out a book about this subject. You could also do a Google search or read the Wikipedia article on it.
Your questions much like your grammar are flawed. By the way please get hold of a dictionary and a first grade primer on the rules of the English language, you need it BADLY. No one is going to take you seriously when you can’t spell or put together a proper sentence.
2 February 2006, on 12:43 pm
Stupid little trevor,
If you really want to try and understand evolution then you should goto a place called a library and take out a book about this subject. You could also do a Google search or read the Wikipedia article on it.
Your questions much like your grammar are flawed. By the way please get hold of a dictionary and a first grade primer on the rules of the English language, you need it BADLY. No one is going to take you seriously when you can’t spell or put together a proper sentence.
Is this an answer?Whats flawed about my questions?And why wont you answer them?
By the way if you had read the question(and understood),then you would know that this was not mainly a question about evolution(although evolution is part of it).
2 February 2006, on 12:49 pm
“Is this an answer?Whats flawed about my questions?And why wont you answer them?”
Because they are obviously loaded questions. (like “have you stopped beating you wife?”) And the same stupid bullshit other theists have already tried here. And failed, natch.
And several people already answered. What more do you want?
2 February 2006, on 12:54 pm
“I’m only 16 myself”
“im 14!”
Gotta love this. One know-it-all child telling us to be nice to the other know-it-all child. I’m so glad to be out of my teen years. If I was half this arrogant and clueless what an ass I must have been!
2 February 2006, on 12:56 pm
“Because they are obviously loaded questions.”
Yeah, they’re loaded with syntax errors and religious mindlessness !!
2 February 2006, on 12:59 pm
What’s with Rockstar Ryan? He disappeared for days, then suddenly he jumps on stage, sings one or two lines from the chorus, and exhits the building? What is he, on tour with Shane McGowan or some shit?
2 February 2006, on 1:00 pm
what???just answer the question!how are they loaded questions?syntax errors?name one…religious mindlessness isnt an excuse and you know it…
2 February 2006, on 1:12 pm
“how are they loaded questions?”
Fucking hell. Because we already know you’re whole point is to twist the answers into half-assed “proof” of one of two things – that either a) we have no morals or b) we do believe in god, but won’t admit it. This game has been played before, opie.’
And for the 10 millionth time, you already got some answers. Why are you still asking for them?
2 February 2006, on 1:14 pm
its a different question…
2 February 2006, on 1:25 pm
“I’m only 16 myself”
“im 14!”
Gotta love this. One know-it-all child telling us to be nice to the other know-it-all child. I’m so glad to be out of my teen years. If I was half this arrogant and clueless what an ass I must have been!
I’m sure I was both (arrogant/clueless, and an ass). But fortunately, they hadn’t invented the internets, and so my arrogant, clueless, asinine ranting dissipated into the atmosphere without a trace. Thank God. So to speak.
2 February 2006, on 1:27 pm
“Evolution says that most change is an improvement due to natural selection.This presents some difficulty if you belive the way crystal does(everyone has their own definition of wrong).If something is improving then there must be some absolute standard of good(and evil,since evil is a perversion of good) above and outside the cosmic process to which the improvement can aproximate…”
Here’s why this is a loaded question. You state as a condition of your question that “there must be some absolute standard of good(and evil,since evil is a perversion of good) above and outside the cosmic process to which the improvement can aproximate.” No one espousing evolutionary theory is saying that evolution is proceeding to some ideal endpoint, but rather that evolutionary adaptations can be beneficial to a species and increase said species chance to procreate. In this model, good and bad are not absolute, polar points but are simply degrees of persepctive. If the adaptation helps the species thrive and increase its population, than that is generally judged to be a positive adaptation. If a species is unable to adapt to its changing environment than that can be considered negative.
Trevor, I think your difficulty in grasping this point is that you seem to have a need for absolutes. In other words, your world view is a black and white one in which there is “good” and there is its opposite, “evil.” I gathered this from your post when you asked why gay marriage and murder weren’t equally bad. In your framework, they are both sins which your god has prohibitted. However, you must admit that one is simply a matter of lifestyle and the other is a matter or doing irreparable harm to another person. Gay marriage causes no one any harm whatsoever. People may be homophobic and feel unease at the concept but that should not outweigh someone’s right to a happy lifestyle.
In answer to your overall question of how can there be morals in a godless society, think of it this way: morals, in a sense, amount to nothing more than what will benefit the greatest number of people. We don’t allow murder because that will directly harm people. Stealing disrupts someone’s livelihood. It is generally better to cooperate with others because more can be accomplished that way. Creating positive relationships with other people can relieve stress and promote a longer, healthier life. Forming monogamous relationships reduces the risks of certain sexually transmitted diseases and creates a partnership in which the various tasks of day to day living can be shared. None of these examples need God to make them practical or even likely. A society where everyone went around hurting each other would quickly die out. Again, we see the idea of evolution. We are social animals. Antisocial behaviors like the ones you described would decrease our likelihood of procreation and endanger the survival of our species.
Trevor, do me a favor and read over what I said and think about it for a while before responding.
2 February 2006, on 1:43 pm
“By living in society, a healthy human being is expected to learn to combat this ignorance, and Marcus either hasn’t bothered to put the effort into this or isn’t applying the lessons he has learned. Therefore, I feel justified in calling Marcus a prick; his pointless, harmful behavior makes him one in my book.”
Are you implying that I have psychological problems? You’re a bigger asshole and a dumber teenager than I thought. You obviously haven’t gotten the joke. If a teenage theist wants information about atheism, there are far better place to get it than a website devouted to lambasting religion. You’ve missed the fucking point and need to grow a sense of humor.
Sean et al,
The last I knew, he was recording- I think he also mentioned some occupational difficulties.
Ron,
Right on.
2 February 2006, on 2:02 pm
First of all, thank you “king retard” sincerely.Someone actually answered the question!And it almost makes sense…But im still not convinced
“No one espousing evolutionary theory is saying that evolution is proceeding to some ideal endpoint, but rather that evolutionary adaptations can be beneficial to a species and increase said species chance to procreate.”
So evolution happens,in fact,just by chance?and you hope that the mutations are helpful to a species?Well,i dont know if you endorse talkorigins,but some of the other people(lya)on here do.And i quote this from their site:
“”A common misconception about evolution-”The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.”
Talkorigins response-Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don’t interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.”"
So even if not all changes are improvements, “harmful mutations die out quickly”.So they still think that there are, in fact over time, improvements within a given species.So even if there’s never an ideal endpoint,we will always be evolving towards one.
2 February 2006, on 2:05 pm
So,you still have to have an absolute standard of good(and evil,since evil is a perversion of good) above and outside the cosmic process to which this improvement can aproximate…as far as i can see anyway…
2 February 2006, on 2:22 pm
“as far as i can see anyway… ”
And THIS it the root of the problem.
2 February 2006, on 2:24 pm
If anyone believes any of these statements are flawed, please announce why. If you believe that anything I have said does not naturally flow from these statements, please tell me. If neither of these is the case, then explain how you could hold a point of view other than mine on this issue.
Adam, I can’t speak for others, but, personally, I really didn’t have any problem with any of your (1)-(4) statements. Maybe (3) was a bit much, but just a slight rephrasing would solve that.
So, how could one hold a view other than your own, given all this? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the fact that all the ridicule you mention actually came from here, from this blog, and I’m not sure you’re fully understanding this blog or appreciating the context. (I think I’ve said something like this before somewhere else, but reminders are always good things.)
That is, after reading the “mission statement” of this blog (upper-right corner), I think it’s pretty clear that most people (non-theists or otherwise) come here to relax, have fun, laugh their asses off, and make fun of stuff that bothers them. Like you, we have to deal with this shit everyday, and I’m sure all of us are, for the most part, extremely civil with these idiots in our everyday lives — even when we feel like screaming. But we clearly know, in that context, that it wouldn’t be constructive, and would fall into the problems you mention in (2) and (4).
So we come here, and know that our rants and thoughts and ridicule can be heard and understood by others who’ve had the same bullshit experiences with these morons. (We also have many moments where the talk can get quite technical and scholarly, but this far from a requirement.) When people talk about stuff here, it’s not like we’re in a PTA meeting or at the local grocery store. It’s a blog — one that was created by atheists for atheists.
And that’s how, even after giving you (1)-(4), we’d still tell you to lighten the fuck up and relax (or just go away).
So, whatever your thoughts might be about the “mission” of this blog, please refrain from telling us how “shocked and disappointed” you are at the amount and type of ridicule you read when you come here. Just take the board out of your ass, put down the logic exam, and have a good time (or just go away).
2 February 2006, on 2:24 pm
Trevor,
The absolute standard of good is a social derived conception. The bible served as a standard for one ancient society, yet the bible works only in that society until new discoveries are made, etc, etc… If a society can not compromise, then it will atrophy. Some standards seem to be universal (i.e. murder is reprehensible) yet are still mutable in certain situations. Really the standards are set by humanity; a greater problem arises when one faction of humanity does not adapt new standards and sticks with archaic knowledge. Those individuals do not allow society to progress and, in effect, harm the whole of it whether aware of the harm caused or not.
2 February 2006, on 2:42 pm
Adam
Let me give you my perspective. I am a guest here. This blog is what it claims to be. A place for atheists to rant and blow off steam and point out what they feel is absurd in the world of the followers of the “big sky Daddy”. If us theists come here and try to push things you simply don’t accept as fact down your throat, it will be seen as offensive. This isn’t really an educational blog. Trevor has moxie, he has withstood steep criticism, but he isn’t getting it yet. There are better ways to engage in conversation here by us theists.
So don’t be so hard on your atheist friends, I seriously doubt that most of them would act this way outside of cyberland. That’s why this blog is here, isn’t it?
2 February 2006, on 3:06 pm
Preach it brother Bob! My life’s motto is “Fuck ‘em if they can’t take a joke” If words on a computer screen affect you so much, you need thicker skin soon or the world will eat you alive.
If this kid is really 16 then I very much doubt he’s had to put up with as much shit as some of the rest of us. If he has read the absolute dreck that those like trevor have come here to say and still can’t understand why some would be upset, he is wet behind the ears indeed. Have him come back in 10 years and we’ll see if he still has this sanctimonious, self-righteous tone. And if he still doesn’t see the cathartic nature of venting with expletives.
2 February 2006, on 3:12 pm
” That’s why this blog is here, isn’t it? ”
Ding ding ding. Bob, tell him what he’s won.
2 February 2006, on 4:55 pm
Adam- I personally thank God that you arrived on the scene. You kick butt. Seriously you make so many good points. I was hopeing beyond hope that not all atheist were mean and angry, to the point at it over ruled their common sence.
Travor- I am so proud of you for holding your ground and not falling for there personal attacks.
To the rest of you regulars- You make me shake my head.
Bye Bye
The winner of the most F-words used in a comment, in attempts show that they were really really MEAN athiests…..goes to…..FORD with crystal a close 2nd. (16 F-words #157)
Well done!!!;)
Now that all this sillyness is over…I never got paid the $200. you promised me…so I’m out of here.
200, 201, 202, 203, come on can you get it to 250?
2 February 2006, on 4:59 pm
Fuck man, I fucking haven’t fucking won fucking shit in a fucking while. Nice to see some fucking change for a fucking change.
2 February 2006, on 5:15 pm
Adam,
That Cluckin’ Chicken gives you her “nicey-nice gold medal” award puts your ethos in the crapper. She really makes you seem like a sock puppet.
Cluckin’ Chicken,
Have you really been counting the word “fuck” in our posts? Friggen amazing- would you be as offended at the word “bloody” or “quim”?
2 February 2006, on 5:29 pm
Marcus- I could pick other words to count also…but I have a life
Really now…I thought I stumbled onto Roofer’s site, it was getting so bad.
2 February 2006, on 5:59 pm
Adam,
How do you feel now that you got an “atta boy” from the dumb cluck ? She’s someone who has to run and hide in the bathroom from a thunderstorm and when it’s over find it’s yet another reason to quote mindless scripture.
Also you do realize that by attending a craplic school that you and your parents are engaging in hypocrisy since you say you’re atheists. Plus do you really think you’re getting a better science education there ? Or even a better education in math or computers ?
2 February 2006, on 6:12 pm
Dumb clucky,
“I was hopeing beyond hope that not all atheist were mean and angry, to the point at it over ruled their common sence.”
Don’t worry he’s young, in a few years he’ll be as mean, angry (and smart) as the rest of us assuming those craplic school bastards don’t somehow manage to brainwash him.
A question, is it typical that theists don’t know how to spell ?? HAHAHAHA !!!! Better go run away and hide in the bathroom sable chicky, run and hide from the mean smart atheists !! HAHAHAHA !!!!
2 February 2006, on 6:50 pm
Ford said “let’s say we have a destination and restrictions on how to get there, but everything that=getting to the destination AND !violating the restrictions is fair game.”
No disagreements there. If I really thought that hurling insults at every theist who came across this site actually helped us reach this destination, then I would gladly join in. Sure, I don’t think it would be the fairest thing in the world, but I could easily shut that out in favor of the (far) greater good. The problem is that I think these tactics are actually counterproductive and and harming our chances of spreading rational thought.
2 February 2006, on 6:55 pm
Adam -
I am always a bitch. But I am not stupid. I know when to open my mouth and when not to. Putting words on paper is easier than saying them, therefore, I prefer to do my ranting on the internet.
In response to your purpose:
1. Theists like Trevor are ignorant, and it is better to attempt to change ignorance than to mock it.
Agreed. But mocking is so much fun. I’m sure that most of us don’t mock theists in our daily lives. We simply look at them as if they’re stupid.
2. By attacking theists, one causes them to become more defensive about their religion.
Not ALWAYS so. I began to think as an atheist when I was attacked by an atheist. Knowing that I was thought less of in my scientific community because I believed in a greater force only pushed me to look further into my beliefs. Although this was a shitty way for me to begin as an atheist, that was how it began.
3. Through the use of reason, we can convert theists to a more rational way of thought.
Mixed feelings. Faith is a concept beyond reason. For theists to be converted, they must be able to think outside the box. They must be able to SEE a world without god before they can deem it to be true. They must see reason through knowledge, and be able to give up their entire sense of self (well, it was somewhat like this for me) before they can convert. It’s not a quick and easy process. It’s like telling a kid there is no Santa Clause, but with a more personal connection. It’s ripping away the one crutch in your life and replacing it with uncertainties, which seems completely unreasonable to most.
4. The consequences of creating more rational thinkers are positive while the consequences of causing theists to become more defensive are negative.
Agreed.
So there are my rebuttals and agreements. Play with them as you wish.
Trevor -
I’m sorry, dear, but there is no point in answering your questions if you can not think that all humans have some moral code. Also, stop using me to “justify” your arguments. My thoughts are personal and may not be held by the majority.
EVERYONE ELSE -
Rockstar no longer has internet access. He might be back, he might not. But don’t forget him in your prayers! hahaha…
2 February 2006, on 7:05 pm
King Retard said “Some people here live surrounded by ignorant, mean-spirited theists and react the way Trevor was reacted to as kind of a reflex at this point, or at least as an outlet for frustration. I am lucky enough to live in a major and fairly liberal metropolitan area where religion is much more of a personal focus than a community one.”
To be fair to Marcus, I have never lived in such a place either, so I can’t say I understand his exact situation. However, as I have mentioned, I deal with theistic bullshit every day, and I am just as concerned about the direction this country is headed as he is. However, I think that there are ways to handle this frustration that are more productive to our cause. It almost sounds like King Retard is saying “Yes, his behavior is wrong, but he has an excuse!” The same could be said about an atheist who takes out his frustration by beating his wife, and Marcus’s actions, while infinitely less curel and inhuman than domestic abuse, still represent wrongheaded acts that do nothing but harm.
2 February 2006, on 7:14 pm
Trevor – My advice to you would be to leave this site immediately. You are obviously not going to get any straight answers or respect here, so your continued posting will be an exercise in pointlessness. Once again, I give you my e-mail address – karnevil54@yahoo.com – with the assurance that any questions you have about atheism will be answered in a calm, logical, clear way. Just because certain members of this site prefer to respond to your questions with taunting instead of with answers does not mean that those answers do not exist.
2 February 2006, on 7:23 pm
Lya Kahlo – I may be 16, but I have attempted to argue my point (that the insulting you participate in is counterproductive) with logic and reason, and I believe I deserve the same respect. If I am indeed “arrogant and clueless,” please tell me how.
2 February 2006, on 7:29 pm
Ron – Is arguing that people who have done nothing wrong should be treated with respect “asinine”? Is attempting to back my claims with valid reasons for them “ranting”? Again, if my argument is flawed please explain how. Don’t just dismiss it.
2 February 2006, on 7:35 pm
Marcus says “Are you implying that I have psychological problems? You’re a bigger asshole and a dumber teenager than I thought. You obviously haven’t gotten the joke.”
Marcus, if your idea of humor is ruthlessly abusing anyone who comes here seeking information on your position, then your question answers itself.
“If a teenage theist wants information about atheism, there are far better place to get it than a website devouted to lambasting religion.”
I don’t see how a teenage theist would think otherwise. I would assume that a website devoted to lambasting religion in such a brutal way would have some pretty good reasons for its position. That would make it as good a place as any.
2 February 2006, on 7:53 pm
Adam,
“The same could be said about an atheist who takes out his frustration by beating his wife, and Marcus’s actions, while infinitely less curel and inhuman than domestic abuse, still represent wrongheaded acts that do nothing but harm.”
And now you equate me with a domestic abuser- you are one arrogant little cock; a comment like that is nearly a one-way ticket to bannination. It’s too bad that you’re a teenager, otherwise anyone here might take you somewhat seriously.
“I would assume that a website devoted to lambasting religion in such a brutal way would have some pretty good reasons for its position. That would make it as good a place as any.”
This is only one of the few statements that make you appear to be an idiot and that you still haven’t gotten the joke. If you have a problem with mean-spirited humor, you’ve got an additional long way to go in cleaning up the world of comedy after you’re done here. You still appear to be a sock-puppet and it is very obvious that you are a troll. Atheist or not, you’re some kind of humorless fuckwit.
PS- Quit flooding.
2 February 2006, on 7:53 pm
Adam, first of all your analogy is a bit off. Beating your wife and feeling threatened by the machinations of a larger part of society due to a minority status are two very different things. Second of all, several of us, myself included, have given Trevor well thought out and respectful answers. His response has generally been “yeah, but you’re wrong. So why won’t someone answer my question.” I admire you for sticking up for a 14 year old but he keeps coming back for more. At this point, he knows the response he will get.
2 February 2006, on 8:01 pm
Bob says “All the ridicule you mention actually came from here, from this blog, and I’m not sure you’re fully understanding this blog or appreciating the context.” If the blog’s fundamental purpose includes abusing those who come to it in an attempt to seek explanations for its standpoints, than I think the blog is not operating under a justifiable mission statement. I will lambast all the Republicans, homophobes, and Christians in the world, but if they come to me asking why I am doing it, brushing away their questions will only hurt my position. The attitude that abusing honest questioners is OK is the reason why public perception of atheism is so negative. Feel free to say anything you wish about Trevor, just do it in a private arena. That way, you get to have your fun, and no one thinks any less of atheism for it. As long as you are contributing to the negative stereotypes of atheists though, I cannot just “lighten the fuck up and relax (or just go away).”
“Just take the board out of your ass, put down the logic exam, and have a good time (or just go away).” Hmmm, there’s a good idea, ignore the fact that your actions are admittedly irrational just so I can get a few kicks.
2 February 2006, on 8:16 pm
Dan – I have to wonder how guests are treated at your house. Do you angrily abuse them when they express a viewpoint contrary to yours? And what about my claim that their actions are hurting people’s perception of atheism? Not only are they hurting themselves, they are hurting me too, and when people’s actions become this destructive, someone needs to point that out to them. In addition, since when has the internet become a tool for acting in an inappropriate manner?
2 February 2006, on 8:17 pm
2 February 2006, on 8:18 pm
Dangit, sorry! Everyone follow the link. Hope that works. It has Rockstar’s face in it, just so everyone knows.
2 February 2006, on 8:53 pm
Enemy of Religion – So I have shown a theist that not all atheists are angry and irrational but instead base their views on common sense*. And for this I am being criticized? Imagine how much better the world would be if we could do that for all Christians instead of affirming their stereotype of us. Anti-atheist persecution would diminish greatly, and once they realize that we base our arguments on logic instead of anger, the number of atheists would skyrocket. What I did was to improve his perception of us without budging my firm atheist stance one bit. Is this not evidence that my ideas actually work?
As for your comments about my attendance of Catholic school, I admit that to some extent you have a point. The thing that most frustrates me about it is telling people that I go to Lamb of God (not its real name) High School and having them assume I am Catholic because of it. However, to answer your questions, I definitely do believe I am getting the best education I possibly can there. I would love to go to a secular prep school, but that’s just not financially feasible for me. And the state of public education where I live is deplorable. I spent 7th and 8th grade in a public middle school, and that was enough to alert my parents and me that I couldn’t continue that. Besides, I know that when it comes time for colleges to look at my application, I know a diploma from good ol’ Lamb of God will look a billion times better than one from Bumblefuck High, so I’m not left with many options. I was pleasently suprised with their science curriculum however. They teach evolution and Big Bang theory, and my earth science teacher would knock you out if you dared to mention intelligent design in his classroom. Mathematics? I’m taking calculus classes for college credit as a high school junior, so no complaint there. Computers? Read the whole damn catechism front to back, and it doesn’t say anywhere that jeebus forbids technology training. I’ll be adept at C++ programming by the time I graduate. By supplementing all that with a little outside reading to balance out the god bullshit (I just finished Michael Shermer’s latest), I find that I have become a lot more confident in atheism than I was when I entered.
*I am certainly not saying that this site’s readers base their views on anything but common sense. However, that’s gotta be how sable chicken perceives it. You certainly don’t spend much time trying to convince him otherwise. Still, I must make it clear that, despite the differences we may have, I highly respect the intelligence and rationality of all of you here. If you’d show these to everyone, then we might be getting somewhere.
2 February 2006, on 9:08 pm
Adam
Imagine my house had a huge sign reading “Making fun of believers everywhere.”, and all the inhabitants were known atheists. Imagine in my entryway was a huge list of reading material explaining why I and my friends were not believers. Got that?
Now enters Trevor, young and armed with some pamphlets about Intelligent Design, or perhaps God’s morality. He doesn’t knock or stop and read the literature, but instead he listens in on conversations for a bit. Convinced he can change folks minds if they just read his pamphlets, he steps into the living room (uninvited of course) and utters: “So,I’ve been ,and basically,all you do is mindlessly slam President Bush and God.So let me ask you something,you don’t belive in God,Therefore your an atheist,now,if theres no God then there’s no moral code,correct?and theres no room for criticism,right?because(within the atheistic worldview), President Bush and his southern accent is no less than retarded than you and your “God is 4 suckers” . ((paraphrased to fit the situation you asked me about))
Am I going to welcome him in and hand him milk and cookies? Or am I going to feel offended and treat him with the respect he showed my home? What would YOU do?
Bear in mind, it was your idea to ask how guests are to be treated in my home, so I adjusted this situation to meet the question for illustrative purposes. Think about it, ok?
2 February 2006, on 9:40 pm
Adam,
I understand why you think that theists will respond to rational arguments but it just will not work. I used to have the idea that as humnaity’s scientific and technological advancement and understanding increased that religion would decrease but clearly that isn’t the case. I’ve tried to explain stuff to theists using logic and reason and they simply reject it out of hand as they’re too steeped in their primitive senseless anti-science beliefs and refuse to hear anything to the contrary. Here’s a typical argument with a christian in person:
Q: How do you know your god exists ?
A: I feel it
Q: Where ?
A: Deep down
Q: Deep down where ?
A: In my soul, I understand the word of god as written in bible, yada, yada, yada
Q: What proof do you have that the bible is factual ?
A: It’s the word of god (circular reasoning)
Once I had a christian tell me I was too into science and computers. That comment is the height of stupidity, no one can be too into science and as a senior programmer I can’t be too into computers. I’ve also had christians babble on about the imaginary blood of their imaginary friend jeebus and other inane crap. After a while hearing the same sort of ridiculous crap over and over again is tiresome. Worse is when they say you have to have religion to have morals and values, this is not only hypocritical for them to say, it’s offensive. In my opinion you can learn better morals and values from Star Trek than you can from burying your head in *any* religious text.
Also I’m tired of the marginalization of atheists by the religious majority and the insidious infiltration of religion into everyday life (money, oaths, legal documents mentioning “acts of god”, etc.) This is in direct violation of the First Amendment and this crap needs to be dealt with. Of course things have gotten worse since dubya dumbass took office and is actively pushing for the country to become a theocracy.
I’m honestly surprised they teach anything worthwhile in your craplic school. I still suggest you goto the public library and use the net to do your own studies into science and technology as I wouldn’t trust them to get it right or not censor things.
Note it’s not just christianity, it’s all religions that suck, here’s a “discussion” I remember having with a witless jehovah witness when I was around 8 years old:
JW: god created the heavens and the earth
ME: you mean the universe
JW: yes
ME: what’s beyond the universe ?
JW: god
ME: who created god ?
JW: you ask too many questions
Is there any wonder why I feel the way I feel and use the handle “Enemy of Religion” ? Imagine telling a smart little kid that he asks too many questions. I ask too many sensible analytical questions which the stupid theists don’t want to hear because they can’t answer them. This is another reason why theists can’t stand atheists, we show up their beliefs as stupid by holding them up to science, logic and reason and they don’t like that and that will never change. This is why I feel that ridicule is the answer, perhaps if enough people come to view religion as something that is stupid and which will merit them ridicule then maybe just maybe they will consider not believing in this primitive anti-science fairy tales nonsense. Keep in mind this is better than what the more fanatical theists would do which is resort to violence and threats of violence and retribution to get their deluded point across.
Who cares what sable chicky “thinks” she’s a brainwiped bitch, check out her witless blog – http://sablechicken.blogspot.com/ – she’s a stupid christian through and through and only comes here to preach, proselytize and show her utter ignorance.
3 February 2006, on 1:00 am
Adam (and other atheists as well),
I strongly encourage you to watch the following video, this should help explain why atheists are so angry:
http://www.libertynewstv.com/RAW%20CLIPS%20and%20STILLS/FEB06Clips/LNTVFeb06full_01.wmv
3 February 2006, on 1:14 am
Adam,
Thanks…and I want you to know the Christian Faith and Catholic Faith are not quite the same. You are a smart kid, you most likely know the differances already.
Eor, why do you think all the answers are the same? Because it is the truth! By the way I don’t like being called a B%#@& and you would know that if you read my blog….Thanks for the PLUG
and I’m the ssabumd! ?
Crystal’s ….before they can convert. It’s not a quick and easy process. It’s like telling a kid there is no Santa Clause, but with a more personal connection. It’s ripping away the one crutch in your life and replacing it with uncertainties, which seems completely unreasonable to most.
You are taking away all the good things, and then on top of that you say that there is no heaven? The Tooth fairy is…it’s all Big fat Lies. ….. running away crying my eyes out….why!? oh cruel world…WHY!? what a bummer.
;(
Crystal
You can tell Rockstar that I will be praying for him.
Faith is a concept, that is NOT beyond reason.
3 February 2006, on 4:45 am
I havent read all the new comments,but i think most of them were in regard to adam..anyway,this is a reply to marcus’s comment 199.
“The absolute standard of good is a social derived conception. The bible served as a standard for one ancient society, yet the bible works only in that society until new discoveries are made, etc, etc… If a society can not compromise, then it will atrophy. Some standards seem to be universal (i.e. murder is reprehensible) yet are still mutable in certain situations. Really the standards are set by humanity; a greater problem arises when one faction of humanity does not adapt new standards and sticks with archaic knowledge. Those individuals do not allow society to progress and, in effect, harm the whole of it whether aware of the harm caused or not.”
I think there are two points in here(correct me if I’m wrong).1,The absolute standard is a social derived conception.And 2,the bible is something that worked for the ancient hebrews,but as technology and everything else progressed,it(the bible) is no longer applicable.
So in answer to(1).An absolute isnt an absolute unless there is something absolute about it.If two men were starving and they came upon a bite of sandwhich…who gets it?They’re both(According to what you’re saying) entitled to it,so what happens?one man kills the other one,then he gets the bite?Then he’s commited murder and thats not helping society out too much.
In answer to (2).So the question is,how can something unchanging be applicable in a changing universe?well,Imagine a professor teaching a very complex subject.Now imagine a young boy who’s first learning to read.Now one of these is a simple subject and the other, a very complex.But the core(the alphabet is the same).they’re both using a 26 letter guideline.It has not been out-worn,or broken down by new knowledge.The two situations are different but only to the point that the original alphabet stays the same.If the alphabet changes,then that is not progress at all,but mere change.Change is not progress unless the core(in my case,the bible) remains unchanged.let me say that again.change is not progress unless the core remains the same.A small oak becomes a big oak,if it became a maple then that would not be progress at all,but mere change.Whenever there is real progress in knowledge,there is some knowledge that is not superseded.The very possibility of progress demands an unchanging element.
Um,yep,well much to all of your gleenesses,school starts back monday,so i wont be on here..except maybe at night…which,by your time,is morning…
3 February 2006, on 7:50 am
“To the rest of you regulars- You make me shake my head.
Bye Bye”
Sable, is victimhood a suit you like wearing?
“Faith is a concept, that is NOT beyond reason. ”
*LOL* Keep telling yourelf that. I’m sure someday it will start to sound true.
~~~~
“Lya Kahlo – I may be 16, but I have attempted to argue my point (that the insulting you participate in is counterproductive) with logic and reason, and I believe I deserve the same respect. If I am indeed “arrogant and clueless,” please tell me how. ”
*sighs* Clearly you haven’t read your own posts. This is not a site for theists. I don’t give a rat’s ass if their feelings are hurt here. About a week ago I was pushed off the steps of the metro rail by a guy who recognized the atheism symbol on my bag. When I hit the ground and the contents of my bag scattered, he kicked some under the train to ensure it would be destroyed. All the time telling me that hell is for heathens. And that Jesus is mad at me.
The nice part of that story is that other people around him – including a very young nun – helped me up, get my stuff together and verbally lash that asshole. (Just to head off the “you hate all theists” post that will inevitably follow this story.)
You can take these childish “let’s play nice” posts and shove them right up your clueless ass. There was nothing I could do about it then. But I’ll be damned if I put up with it here. Other sites are designed for quiet friendly nicey-nice play (IIDB). This one isn’t and DAMN I love this site.
There are other sites for soft, squishy cry-baby theists to have their idiotic delusions catered to. This isn’t one of them. If they chose to come here and post insulting bullshit, they will be treated like dirty toilet paper. We don’t ask them to come here, and they are clearly not the audience the board targets. If you have intruders in your house, do you make them a cup of tea?
Come back in ten years. We’ll see if this “fluffy with smooth corners” bullshit held up.
3 February 2006, on 9:05 am
“You are taking away all the good things, and then on top of that you say that there is no heaven?“
I just read this. I think this right here is the root of the reason people are so emotionally attached to their fake deities. If one truly believes that no god = “taking away all the good things”, no wonder they’re willing to lie, slander, abuse and murder those who aren’t part of their respective cults.
The tragedy being life is brilliant. Before, when I was still a theist, I had to convince myself to be happy because “gawd had a plan” – a plan which evidently meant my life would be boring and lonely. But now that I woke up, man life is good! I’m happy, have better relationships with my family, business inproved – all because I live for now now, instead of the “hereafter”.
I feel sorry for them. Delusions and fairy tales are a poor replacement for reality.
3 February 2006, on 10:10 am
Hmmm, there’s a good idea, ignore the fact that your actions are admittedly irrational just so I can get a few kicks.
*sigh*
Oh well…at least I tried. I guess my work is done here. Adam, good luck trying to make a light-hearted atheist social blog an academic forum.
3 February 2006, on 10:35 am
Happy Bob? You’ve SPANKED my record.
It’s on.
3 February 2006, on 11:08 am
Trevor,
“An absolute isnt an absolute unless there is something absolute about it.If two men were starving and they came upon a bite of sandwhich…who gets it?They’re both(According to what you’re saying) entitled to it,so what happens?one man kills the other one,then he gets the bite?Then he’s commited murder and thats not helping society out too much.”
You misunderstood- the entire phrase “absolute standard of good” that I used was the subject, not simply “good”. There are no moral absolutes; you assume that all humanity should be able to come to the same moral standards as you find in your little book, yet you forget that we are simply socially-driven mammals.
Our conception of what is absolute morality comes from what we as a society deem fit. I’m not saying that one society over another is morally superior; simply that all social groups have a certain set of mutable morals. I mean, indigenous Americans certainly would have thought your xianity was horrifically immoral. As George Carlin said “Ask one; if you can find one.”
“So the question is,how can something unchanging be applicable in a changing universe?well,Imagine a professor teaching a very complex subject.Now imagine a young boy who’s first learning to read.Now one of these is a simple subject and the other, a very complex.But the core(the alphabet is the same).they’re both using a 26 letter guideline.”
This is a faulty analogy because you are comparing a concrete, perceivable “thing” (the alphabet) to a concept that is unperceivable (morality). Despite that, the alphabet, language, grammar, and punctuation have never been immutable- they change often and much more frequently than you seem to think (hell, GWBush makes up new definitions for words every time he opens his mouth). By remaining unchanged, the bible is no longer applicable- really it was written to only apply to adult Jewish males; at that time women, children, and individuals of other races were considered either property or heathen savages.
3 February 2006, on 11:20 am
Lya, sorry to hear about that. That kind of shit is why I can understand the anger a lot of people on here feel.
3 February 2006, on 11:32 am
Thanks. I’m all healed now – bumps and bruises are gone.
“That kind of shit is why I can understand the anger a lot of people on here feel.”
And that is also why I balk at anyone telling me I should be nicer – but say nothing about theist behavior. 95% of the time I’m a happy-go-lucky person. But living as an outsider among the theists means occasionally being reminder you are an outsider, and occasionally having to put up with their bullshit. I’m only 5′0 & 125 lbs., so it wasn’t like I had much of a chance to defend myself if this guy would have taken it further.
It’s incidents like this (and this is not the first one) that come to mind when some dipshit theist complains that we’re “mean and angry”. They’d be too if they were treated like that. It has nothing to do with being angry because I’m an atheist, but rather because they can be such assholes – and get away with it. This is also why it pisses me off to hear them pretend to be so oppressed. In this country, they don’t have a fucking clue.
3 February 2006, on 11:44 am
Lya,
That incident you mentioned sucks ! What a bastard to shove someone just because he recognized an atheist symbol on their bag and then start preaching and proselytizing. Theists, particularly fanatical christians and fanatical muslims suck *major* ass. They’re intolerant of other people’s beliefs or lack of belief and will eagerly resort to violence to push their primitive backward-assed anti-science beliefs. It’s long overdue that atheists make an uproar over the attempt to turn this country a theocracy.
Stupid sable chicky,
“You are taking away all the good things, and then on top of that you say that there is no heaven?“
Take away the good things ? All you have are stupid delusional fractured fairy tales which are no better than relying on alcohol or drugs. There is NOTHING good about something which can drive people to violence, NOTHING AT ALL !! Go back to your silly sculptures you stupid brainwiped fundie bitch.
3 February 2006, on 11:53 am
Lya,
Whotta cockhat.
3 February 2006, on 11:59 am
“Whotta cockhat.”
That’s religion for you.
3 February 2006, on 12:10 pm
Lya,
First of all let me tell you that I am sorry that someone pushed you down…That was wrong and I truely am upset that any one would find it in their purposeful ability to do that to anyone. But can you see, your story proves the point that Adam is making! G4S is playing a role in the bad name of atheist. Personal the atheist sympol looks like a old logo from an bankrupt Airline. In other words it looks very unthreatening to me. But what is the meaning that goes into it? The atheist on G4S have gone over the top in an effort to blastphem God in any way that they can…..WHY? if God does not exist in your world…why do you do it. Do you not know that He is real in my worldview? Where is your common sence? You know everything? You looked under every rock? He is not there? The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy,…whatever…Have you no sence of wonder and magic in your life.
Please I beg of you to take it down a notch!!! If not for the people that believe but for your fellow atheists …and mankind.
3 February 2006, on 12:51 pm
Happy Bob? You’ve SPANKED my record.
It’s on.
Yes, but for some reason I now have boils all over my ass and I smell like dung. Dammit, Lya, you and your smiteful Jesus!
Really sorry about the Platform Prick, dude…
3 February 2006, on 1:03 pm
“But can you see, your story proves the point that Adam is making! G4S is playing a role in the bad name of atheist.”
Complete and total fucking strawman. This has nothing to do with anything on this website. He was an ass and so are you.
“Personal the atheist sympol looks like a old logo from an bankrupt Airline.”
I didn’t mention which one it was. Which symbol are you talking about? Or did you just say that just to throw in something you hope is insulting?
“he atheist on G4S have gone over the top in an effort to blastphem God in any way that they can…..WHY? if God does not exist in your world…why do you do it.”
If this story doesn’t explain exactly why this site exists to you, then you truly are fucking moron. There’s been posts about this. How many more times does this need to be explained to you? Why are you so incapable of retaining information?
(I know you won’t answer these questions. You’ll just cut and paste something else completely irrelvant and useless. But, please keep it up. You prove us right with ever post.)
the infantile gibberish
“Please I beg of you to take it down a notch!!!”
I don’t care what childish fairy tales you believe in. I don’t care what you think of atheists or that fact that it’s clear you never think at all. I don’t want your sympathy or your opinions. Feel free to go away. I’m not going to tone it down, and neither do I think any one else here will. Especially if it means drawing more asshat theists here to bring down the board.
FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME – THIS BOARD IS NOT FOR YOU.
I agree with Marcus – certain theists bring down the board. I vote to begin banning.
3 February 2006, on 1:04 pm
“Really sorry about the Platform Prick, dude… ”
Eh, don’t be. It’s exactly the behavior I’ve come to expect from theists. On and off line.
3 February 2006, on 1:31 pm
Lya,
Did you file a police report ? That was unprovocated assault plain and simple and that bastard should spend some time in jail for what he did.
3 February 2006, on 1:46 pm
I didn’t have to. The conductor did. Company policy, apparently. So that if I for some reason I (or he) tried to sue the NFTA (transit authority) they could prove it wasn’t their fault. (though, wouldn’t it prove they don’t have sufficient security? who knows.) The conductor took his metro pass from him and the police report will prevent him from getting another.
And, I don’t take public transport that often – I was just headed to the library with is along the train route.
3 February 2006, on 2:06 pm
“It’s incidents like this (and this is not the first one) that come to mind when some dipshit theist complains that we’re “mean and angry”. They’d be too if they were treated like that.”
Somehow, I can relate to this being a black man who grew up during the early 70’s. I was bussed across my city to a previously white High school. The big difference here is my color is not a badge at all.
Later In the early 80’s I wore a mohawk and that was rebelion and really made folks angrier. That made me angrier. I wore punk like a badge. I didn’t even like the music. Sad, huh?
3 February 2006, on 2:14 pm
“Somehow, I can relate to this being a black man who grew up during the early 70’s. I was bussed across my city to a previously white High school. The big difference here is my color is not a badge at all.”
Which is why I don’t equate incidents like mine with racial incidents. I can easily hid the fact that I am an atheist. It is something that is changeable (if I suddenly lost my mind
). Skin color is not. That’s a whole new level of bigotry and hatred.
3 February 2006, on 2:15 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
“Please I beg of you to take it down a notch!!! If not for the people that believe but for your fellow atheists …and mankind.”
And it’s the fault of a rape vicitm that the attacker was turned on; it’s the fault of the beaten child that the Jets didn’t win; it’s the fault of indigenous peoples that they didn’t have gunpowder.
Chicken, you’re an idiot. How’s your husband’s affair coming along? Are your classes treating you nice or have you been forced to learn something?
3 February 2006, on 2:21 pm
“And it’s the fault of a rape vicitm that the attacker was turned on; it’s the fault of the beaten child that the Jets didn’t win; it’s the fault of indigenous peoples that they didn’t have gunpowder.”
Prezactly. She was “sorry” just long enough to figure out how to blame me and (inexplicably) this webpage for that incident.
3 February 2006, on 5:32 pm
Marcus – pleace just stop! You make crap up and than you want to ban people. I think it would be only fair to ban an atheist too. I vote for you Marcus. If I didn’t know you by now I would say that you didn’t realize that you come off just a wee bit on the evil side. Knock it off. (just kidding, don’t kick marcus off;)
Lya- you are a little stinker, aren’t you. Did you actually provoke this?! You want a world where every one is as mean as you? Think about it. You are to smart for that.
“Personally the atheist symbol looks like a old logo from an bankrupt Airline.”
I didn’t mention which one it was. Which symbol are you talking about? Or did you just say that just to throw in something you hope is insulting?
IT’S A JOKE!!! miss sensitive. for crying out loud. Can’t I have a little bit of fun with you.
Lets take it to 300!
3 February 2006, on 5:49 pm
lol..i think this is getting a little weird…marcus,ill “make my rebuttal” in the morning.
3 February 2006, on 6:07 pm
Stupid sable chicky
This is an atheist forum so your vote doesn’t count but I vote to have you booted as the weakest theist link, you’re stupid, unintelligent, full of crap, you believe in stupid backward-assed primitive anti-science fairy tales, you have imaginary friends, you mindlessly quote idiot scripture and you can’t spell.
3 February 2006, on 6:20 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
You couldn’t possibly know 1/1,000,000 about me- but thanks for calling me evil.
3 February 2006, on 10:18 pm
This might seem a bit off topic, but I have a comment.
“Hey, we’re really just skewing the data, right? I mean, there are just as many atheists going around killing kids in America, and we’re purposely not posting those stories — right?”
I think it is worth mentioning, I am not accusing anyone of skewing the data. I think in this kind of case, the data is already faulty. If a person commits murder like this and they attend a certain church and profess some kind of deep faith, the press will nearly always mention that fact. However, if someone commits murder and a link to a church and the faith issue is not raised, the whole subject of religion is ignored. I don’t think it is sensational if an irreligious person is arrested and convicted. What is sensationalized and reported is when it is apparent the person was in some way devout.
I am not implying that all irreligious people are atheists, or that atheists are bad and run around killing children. I am asking if you think it would be mentioned if a person was not practicing a faith of some kind.
3 February 2006, on 10:38 pm
If a person commits murder like this and they attend a certain church and profess some kind of deep faith, the press will nearly always mention that fact. However, if someone commits murder and a link to a church and the faith issue is not raised, the whole subject of religion is ignored.
Thanks for bringing this up, Dan. Yes, I believe the subject is definitely worth mentioning, and I’m glad you did.
But I’m not sure what to do with the non-religion-no-mention claim. I’ve seen very few instances of media reports that involved non-religion, but the ones I did see didn’t hesitate to mention the lack of faith of the perp (if, of course, the lack of faith was known by the reporter).
After talking to a some reporters in the South Florida area, it was made clear to me (at least by them) that when they know the facts either way they report them. When they don’t know either way, then they don’t report them.
Now, I haven’t met every reporter in the U.S., so I could be wrong about these attitudes. Maybe there are many reporters out there who intentionally or unintentionally drop the non-religious property of a perp, I don’t know. But I’m not sure you can make the claim in the other direction.
4 February 2006, on 4:15 am
Marcus,
“This is a faulty analogy because you are comparing a concrete, perceivable “thing” (the alphabet) to a concept that is unperceivable (morality). Despite that, the alphabet, language, grammar, and punctuation have never been immutable”
The bible(a book) is a perceivable thing.Within the bible are the moral guidelines yes,but the bible is a very real thing.The alphabet isnt immutable? So I can make all the spelling errors I want now?The alphabet has been the same since the 16th century.But I dont want to get carried away with the alphabet.We can replace the alphabetical analogy with the mathematical principles(someting unpercievable) of multiplication.4×4 will always equal 16.According to the bible,Adultery will always be wrong.Just because the bible is a very series of books doesn’t mean that the priciples hold true in our modern society,and help us.I don’t know if you know this,but Thomas Huxley(despite his faults) was a stout supporter of biblical teachings and principles.
“at that time women, children, and individuals of other races were considered either property or heathen savages.”
Um,not in the Bible..You probably haven’t picked yours up lately(lol),but Jesus said “let the children come”.The bible was one of the only religions that did NOT support abuse and discrimination toward women.In Galatians,it says “There is neither Jew nor Greek,slave nor free,MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”
I’m not trying to “spew scripture”.I’m only saying that if you are a christian,then you follow(or should follow as close as humanly capable) the bible.So I don’t know what religion you’re talking about,but christianity has never(I can say never,because the bible has been the same since the beggining) treated women or children like property!
Now,
“You misunderstood- the entire phrase “absolute standard of good” that I used was the subject, not simply “good”. There are no moral absolutes; you assume that all humanity should be able to come to the same moral standards as you find in your little book, yet you forget that we are simply socially-driven mammals.”
So you’re saying that good is relative?correct?So if this is true,evil can exist in his own right just as good can. If you choose “good” it is only because you prefer it.In what sense can the one party be said to be wrong and the other right?If evil has the same kind of reality as good,the same autonomy and completeness,it is only a matter of choice.But a sound theory of value needs something more.It demands that “good”(whether good is what we think of as good or not)should be original and evil the mere perversion,that good should be the original and evil the counterfeit,that good should be able to exist on its own,while evil requires requires the good to which it is parasitic to survive*.To say that there are no moral absolutes is a serious accusation against humanity(i find it a scary one).If this is the case then by what standard can cruelty reprove kindness(or the other way around)?In reality,we can judge perverted sexuality and inordinate resentment with the contrast of innocent sexuality and ordinate aquisitivness.But if evil and good are one and the same(which is the obvious result of a lack or moral abslutes)then the pereverse is no “worse” than the inocent…
4 February 2006, on 4:17 am
*If you can’t tell,I’m a bog fan of C.S Lewis
4 February 2006, on 4:17 am
**big
4 February 2006, on 4:31 am
Was just reading over what i said and this sentence didnt make any sense.
“Just because the bible is a very series of books doesn’t mean that the priciples hold true in our modern society,and help us.”
What I meant was:Just because the bible is a very OLD series of books doesn’t mean that the priciples DON’T hold true in our modern society”
4 February 2006, on 10:18 am
Trevor,
“The alphabet isnt immutable? So I can make all the spelling errors I want now?The alphabet has been the same since the 16th century.”
You can make all the spelling errors you want, but it won’t make them accepted by current standards. The alphabet et al isn’t an immutable representation of language, as I said; being relatively unchanged since the sixteenth century dosen’t give it permanence.
“The bible was one of the only religions that did NOT support abuse and discrimination toward women.In Galatians,it says “There is neither Jew nor Greek,slave nor free,MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus””
And GWBush has made statements that everyone is an American. It’s a rhetorical trick; get your head out of your ass. I was referring to the culture of the middle east during that period when I noted the bible only applied to adult Jewish males; I would never use the bible to prove cultural characteristics anymore than you can assume that The Metamorphoses depicts greek society in a totally accurate way, BECAUSE NEITHER DO. And if you believe this:
“but christianity has never(I can say never,because the bible has been the same since the beggining) treated women or children like property!”
There is something complete and refined in your ignorance.
When you noted, correctly, that I had written “good” is relative, you improperly assigned a concrete factor to it and used that same concrete factor to argue the relationship of evil as having “the same autonomy and completeness.” You either misunderstood or spun the argument to serve your own purpose- a relative concept can not have concrete factors of autonomy and completeness because it remains in a constant state of flux.
You see, since you, obviously unconfortable with vaguery, gave them concrete characteristics to gague them against, it is simple for you to come up with:
“But if evil and good are one and the same(which is the obvious result of a lack or moral abslutes)then the pereverse is no “worse” than the inocent…”
However, since “good” and “evil” have no concrete characteristics and are entirely socially derived, they will always be separate by the sheer nature of society’s definition of them; a bible or any other religion are no more a prerequisite for that separation than they are prerequisites for determining the difference between black and white. And yes, since the definition is socially conceived, good and evil can sometimes “look” like each other.
6 February 2006, on 7:41 am
“Lya- you are a little stinker, aren’t you. Did you actually provoke this?! You want a world where every one is as mean as you? Think about it. You are to smart for that.”
Oh yeah, I totally provoked him. I never looked at him. I never engaged him. I simply had the atheism symbol on my bag. Clearly, I provoked him.
Goodness you are such a fucking moron.
“IT’S A JOKE!!! miss sensitive. for crying out loud. Can’t I have a little bit of fun with you.”
You can fuck off. It wasn’t a joke, and your lies make baby jesus smoke crack.
6 February 2006, on 12:43 pm
“You can make all the spelling errors you want, but it won’t make them accepted by current standards. The alphabet et al isn’t an immutable representation of language, as I said; being relatively unchanged since the sixteenth century dosen’t give it permanence.”
Ok..I guess it wasn’t the best analogy.What about the basic priciples of mathematics(as I already mentioned)?I would definetly give those a large ,if not, infinite level of permanence.
Me-“but christianity has never(I can say never,because the bible has been the same since the beggining) treated women or children like property!”
Marcus-”If you believe this,there is something complete and refined in your ignorance”
Me-Wow,I can’t believe I said that.I meant the philosophy of christianity has never advocated or supported the treating of women and children like property.I cannot account for any of the horrid things that have been done in the name religion and christianity(and as you know there have been some),but I complety support the basic principles of the christian philosophy and the Bible.Just because a christian steals something does not mean that what he did was a christian thing to do.That’s logic. And as a small deviation-the things done in the name of humanism,atheism, and communism(I could name so many,but a few that come to mind…the reign of terror in france,Mao’s regime,Trotsky’s russian revolution,Yasser Arafat’s regime).And all of these things done, line up with the general atheist and secular humanist philosophy.
“When you noted, correctly, that I had written “good” is relative, you improperly assigned a concrete factor to it and used that same concrete factor to argue the relationship of evil as having “the same autonomy and completeness.” You either misunderstood or spun the argument to serve your own purpose- a relative concept can not have concrete factors of autonomy and completeness because it remains in a constant state of flux.”
If “good” is relative,then “evil” is relative.Now if they’re both relative and they both co-exist,then,first of all,EVERYTHING would be relative,even society’s needs.And second,they both would have to be complete and autonomous.Because,if up is down,and left is right,then right is as good as left,and left can exist autonomously,just as right can.The reason the “flux” is concrete is because if the wrong is right,then the worst right can be,is wrong.And the best that worst can be is wrong.To me its very obvious that you have to either have no morals(anthing goes) or have something concrete and metaphysical(God) that defines wrong…
6 February 2006, on 1:53 pm
I think what you’re saying is that morals are relative to society,but society is relative.Something relative has to be relative to something absolute.If morals are relative and society is relative..then morals cannot be relative to society
6 February 2006, on 1:55 pm
There is no need for any absolutes. Things can be relative to each other with no need for any absolutes. You only feel the need for an absolute so as not to contradict your belief in gawd.
6 February 2006, on 2:37 pm
“Things can be relative to each other with no need for any absolutes”
Um..no they can’t…give me an example…
6 February 2006, on 4:51 pm
Uh oh. The new spam killer is whispering “tre-vor! tre-vor!”
6 February 2006, on 5:34 pm
“Things can be relative to each other with no need for any absolutes”
“Um..no they can’t…give me an example…”
Stealing from someone is bad for them becuase it can affect their livelihood or rob them of a cherished item. Running someone over with your car is bad for them because it can seriously injure or kill them. Comparatively, stealing from them would probably do much less harm. Nowhere in this example does there need to be an absolute definition or measure of bad.
Why is it so difficult for you to imagine morals as nothing more than a set of conditional set of relations? All your system of absolutes does is to privilege a ruling class who derives their power from “the absolute,” or God. When someone, such as George Bush, says that they are acting according to God’s wishes, all of a sudden they are acting from a point of moral absolutism. If their position is to be believed, if you disagree with them, you are disagreeing with God. However, if morals are recognized as a social and cultural development which allow for mutual assistance, trust, and cohesion, than absolutes are actually harmful, again as we see with Bush, to the society. Absolutes create a system where there are the right and the wrong based on the right’s definition of wrong, minus all the complexities of thought.
6 February 2006, on 11:52 pm
Lya, You are right it is not a joke. And you know that I am not making a joke out of someone pushing you down. I was mocking your “atheism symbol” by saying it looked unthreatening.
“Personally the atheist symbol looks like a old logo from an bankrupt Airline.”
I am sorry that I made that joke at your expense. It is know excuse but I do feel a little pushed around at times being a Christian. My sence of humor of mocking your atheist symbol, was an attempt to let you know that I also feel attacked when symbols of my Faith are used to make mock of my beliefs. I don’t worship a Christian fish symbol, the Cross or a picture of Jesus or even the Bible.
If you set the American flag on fire in your front lawn…I would think “wow, it looks like this person is very up set with America.” But I do know an atheist that would be so upset by this he might feel provoked to push the flag burner to the ground.
It seems unreasonable to think that some one can put away their beliefs like you can put away your buttons. So when you are putting on your buttons in the morning, are you thinking, “I hope I meet some on else that is an atheist and they feel encouraged that they are not alone”…or…”I want to let an Xian, or Jew or Muslim know that I think they are pieces of crap in my eyes.” ?
Lya you said,”Oh yeah, I totally provoked him. I never looked at him. I never engaged him. I simply had the atheism symbol on my bag. Clearly, I provoked him.”
Why would you say that it was the atheism symbol that made him push you? Please describe this symbol.
7 February 2006, on 2:34 am
“It is know excuse but I do feel a little pushed around at times being a Christian.”
How exactly? You guys are pretty much in charge, right? Who is pushing you around exactly?
7 February 2006, on 12:00 pm
“Stealing from someone is bad for them becuase it can affect their livelihood or rob them of a cherished item. Running someone over with your car is bad for them because it can seriously injure or kill them. Comparatively, stealing from them would probably do much less harm. Nowhere in this example does there need to be an absolute definition or measure of bad.”
Ok,so you’re comparing one bad thing to another bad thing.But they’re both bad.So take the extreme(something like genocide),what is this relative to?Something else bad can’t be used as a comparison,because the whole thing we’re arguing is the line between good and evil,not the line between bad and worse.
I think Comment 260 took a while to pop up,so if you didn’t read it,it might explain something.
“How exactly? You guys are pretty much in charge, right? Who is pushing you around exactly?”
You guys got the UN,UNESCO,UNICEF,Planned Parenthood,the state of oregon, and(probably the most important) almost every university(with the exception of religious campuses) in America.
We can argue all day about who’s pushing who around more(I live in europe,I can go on about this).And I’m sorry Lya got pushed down by a man,but where in the bible is persecution because of an alternate beliefe condoned?Where in the bible does it say “push your atheist friend down”,nowhere.Just because a christian does something “un-christian” DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS A CHRISTIAN THING TO DO.
7 February 2006, on 1:03 pm
“Stealing from someone is bad for them becuase it can affect their livelihood or rob them of a cherished item”
Another probelm with this is…what if the person stealing needs the item?Who has the “right”?The person stealing it,needs it.the person who has it needs it too..who gets it?
7 February 2006, on 1:19 pm
“Another probelm with this is…what if the person stealing needs the item?Who has the “right”?The person stealing it,needs it.the person who has it needs it too..who gets it?”
Now you’re starting to get it. This is what I mean by relative. An absolute view would say that stealing, regardless of circumstance or motive, is necessarily bad. After all, the 10 Commandments say “Thou Shall Not Steal.” But what if someone steals to feed his children? That is obviously less harmful to society than someone stealing money to buy crack. In the first circumstance (stealing to eat), right is a matter of perspective. As your difficulty with the scenario suggests, absolutes do not work in real world application. There is always a shade of grey. What is right for one person to do (feeding his children) is wrong for the person stolen from.
Your genocide example is interesting. In our modern context, we’ve deemed it about as bad a thing as one can do. To put it into a relative perspective though, lets compare it to the ststematic destruction of the planet’s ecosystem. Genocide is a deliberate action which results in the death and torment of thousands, or even millions of people in a somewhat fixed period of time. Global warming is a non-deliberate gradual action that could conceivably result in the death of all or most of the human race. If we examine this in terms of degrees, it’s hard to say which is worse. Genocide is deliberate and reprehensible for that reason. The destruction of an ecosystem is not deliberate but could exact a much greater toll in terms of lives lost. How would you fit these into a polar, absolute scale?
Trevor, I hope you’re understanding what I’m trying to get across to you instead of just arguing to hold onto your preconceived notions. Believe me, I understand the allure of absolutes. Everything can fit into a neat package or category and you have a compass to act by. However, the reflection and thought which lead one to find their own morality as well as the flexibility to reach decisions based on the circumstances is much more rewarding and useful an ability.
7 February 2006, on 2:28 pm
“Now you’re starting to get it. This is what I mean by relative. An absolute view would say that stealing, regardless of circumstance or motive, is necessarily bad. After all, the 10 Commandments say “Thou Shall Not Steal.” But what if someone steals to feed his children? That is obviously less harmful to society than someone stealing money to buy crack. In the first circumstance (stealing to eat), right is a matter of perspective. As your difficulty with the scenario suggests, absolutes do not work in real world application. There is always a shade of grey. What is right for one person to do (feeding his children) is wrong for the person stolen from.”
The whole point of what I’m saying is not that stealing something is ok if the person needs it.What I’m saying is that, for instance, If person A has something that he needs to survive,and person B needs it too,now if B steals it from A.Then B helps himself,yes,but he doesn’t help A because now A will die.How is that helping society?
7 February 2006, on 3:37 pm
King R
If you haven’t noticed Christian values have been completely undermined. Fine…I live with it, we no longer have a choice. The rest of the time it’s like “Shut up!” If I say anything about Christianity, people think that I am a Republican or my beliefs are in some kind of perfect step with Bush’s. It’s just not true but it will not be heard. The message is very loud and clear…Shut up. Freedom of speech…bye,bye…it’s going. Did you know that the Muslims think MTV is Christian? At this point everything is so muddled up…maybe it is too far gone. It is so hard to protect children from growing up too fast. No one is concerned about just how out of control it is becoming. I too am worried about the world. And every time I say anything, it is heaped up on me like what was said to Trevor by Marcus..”….When you call yourself a xian, think about all the harm that religion has done…Make sure you have a secular university education. Find diversity; find the world; find yourself; and help us find a way to compromise. Compromise is the only peace. “Compromise? How much more compromise? I know that I am called to turn the other cheek and forgive 7X77. That doesn’t mean I should not stand up for what I believe in. Secular education?!… turn on the TV if you need to get a little more “secular” into your life.
The whole point I was trying to make with Lya is…a person can’t run around saying “I don’t believe in God and therefor I don’t believe that I am blasphemying.” A person could run round, saying that…and they do. But thinking that no one will ever get mad about their God being blasphemed! What? It doesn’t work..
(Ad hominem – attacking the arguer and not the argument.) I feel like you can’t understand me because of my spelling.
whatever I’m sorry Lya, that was my fault for making mock of your holy Athiest symbol. I should have known that we can’t talk about anything but bunnies and crafts. (I can’t even fool myself that was so unheart felt.)
Ron- are you enjoying the power of a SuckerSite New World Order! You want to bring it up to 300? it ante gona hapin,
“You can’t fire me
I quit
I just never
fit in”
Just so Sean doesn’t think that I am plagiarizing, that comes from one of my all time favorite Christmas movies “Rudolph the red nose Reindeer”
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/cmascorner/ruld.html
sorry about that link, just wanted to flash Lya the X-ian gang colors Red/Green to have a little fun with her.
Now, I’m scared, because I know her better than Marcus and he’s 1/10,000,000th % evil.
Run away…(running around in a circle like a nut)
but I can’t stop reading this shit
ooops, did I really type that.
I know, I can delete you from my favorites with an ax.
You owe me a new lap top.
But I forgive you anyway…
no hard feelings;)
7 February 2006, on 3:54 pm
Now I will have so much more time to, listen to
Hank Hanegraaff
the Bible Answer Man.
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Archives.asp
“Chick en, Chick en, Chick en…”
They are calling my name….got to get out of here.
Just one more thing before I go.
Take Jerry Springers advice
“Remember to be kind to one another.”
7 February 2006, on 5:19 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
“A person could run round, saying that…and they do. But thinking that no one will ever get mad about their God being blasphemed!”
Yes, that’s right! Fuck you all! We’ll kick your asses and it’ll all be your fault for wanting a world intelligent enough that SPEECH will not get you killed or harmed! You silly atheists!
“Secular education?!… turn on the TV if you need to get a little more “secular” into your life.”
I would hardly called television an education- if you would, you’re watching too much.
Re: Jerry Springer
He lost a seat on the Cincinnati city council when police discovered he had hired a prostitute (he was caught because he paid with a CHECK). Are you revealing that you watch Jerry Springer? Had you thought of taking your own fucked up family on that show? Holy jizzus, you’re quoting Jerry Springer; I didn’t think it was possible for you to appear dumber.
7 February 2006, on 7:50 pm
So, sable, I’ve been meaning to ask you this for quite some time. How would you have things run? Would atheists have less rights? Teaching evolution be outlawed? Homosexuals forced to have therapy and not commit any of their “sinful” acts? If you could run things the way you saw fit how would it be? What would your ideal society be (within the boundary of reality that is, it can’t be “no homos” and stuff like that, all of the issues and ailments of mankind still existing how would you have it handled in your ideal society?) I’m honestly just curious.
Do you understand what we’re trying to do? Do you understand why what you say sounds rediculous to us? You claiming you’re repressed because you’re not free to bully us around and tell us how to live our lives? Do you understand that not everybody believes the same thing as you and why we wouldn’t want you to control our lives based on some shit we don’t believe in? Is it understandable to you in the least? Can you empathize with our position at all? Do you understand how foolish it sounds to us when we’re fighting to defend our right not to be bossed around by you, and you’re claiming that we’re assholes because we are “infringing” on your rights to “uphold your values” which is basically a euphemism for “make everybody live the good chrischin life” and also claiming we’re running the show and you’re repressed when the majority of this country is christian and anybody in any political power in this country is on your side?
Note this doesn’t relate to your recent posts. I just want to know how different our goals ultimatly are.
P.S. Maybe you feel so blasphemed against and oppressed because you’re coming onto an atheist site? Try getting out more, I’m sure you’ll note that the world is a little more to your liking than you think. Us atheists never (99% of us anyways) try not to force you not to do anything unless whatever it is you’re doing is forcing us to do something. You can still pray in your school, you can still do all of the heavenly shit you like to do, you just can’t make anyone else do it or make it some official thing in government (a rule that has been broken innumerable times in this country). As a matter of fact, at my highschool, and every other school I’ve ever been in, you can violate the dress code (within reason, which is hard to do because the code, I think, is unconstitutional in the first place, same with no profanity use etc.) and take days off excused (that aren’t officially days off) for religious b.s. (but I can’t take a good ol’ scratch my ass day off without lieing about it, and I’m sorry but I give about as much importance to those sort of days as you do religious days, not that you don’t consider your religious days important, I just consider my ass scratchin’ days really important). You’re very much not oppressed thank you.
7 February 2006, on 7:54 pm
“Us atheists never (99% of us anyways) try not to force you not to do anything… ”
Fuck. I mant to say “Us atheists never (99% of us anyways) try to force you to not do anything…”
7 February 2006, on 7:55 pm
meant*
Just not my day I guess…
7 February 2006, on 10:30 pm
Stupid sable chicken,
How many times do you have to be told that atheists do NOT believe in your stupid fairy tale deity and nonsense beliefs, we can’t blaspheme something we don’t believe in, we can only say the belief is stupid (and it is).
It’s fine for someone to stand up for what they believe in as long as those beliefs have a solid foundation and religion does not. Until someone can provide real testable evidence to support their religion you theists really need to shut up. We rational non-believers are sick and tired of you idiots screwing up the world with your primitive backward-assed anti-science fairy tales. We’re tired of the religious right pushing these stupid beliefs and attempting to make laws and policies which affect everyone based upon this make-believe garbage. It’s long overdue that rational non-believers push back against you idiots. Either proof your beliefs or go away, put up or shut up.
P.S. maybe you would have more fun if you weren’t a brainwiped theist believing in idiotic fairy tales and following dogma like a mindless sheep.
8 February 2006, on 4:08 am
“Until someone can provide real testable evidence to support their religion you theists really need to shut up”
THere’s no “real testable evidence” for your belief that there isn’t a God either.
8 February 2006, on 7:37 am
“And I’m sorry Lya got pushed down by a man,but where in the bible is persecution because of an alternate beliefe condoned?Where in the bible does it say “push your atheist friend down”,nowhere.Just because a christian does something “un-christian” DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS A CHRISTIAN THING TO DO. ”
And I thought Trevor had actually read the bible. Silly me. I should know by now that most xians have never even cracked open the cover.
8 February 2006, on 7:51 am
“If you haven’t noticed Christian values have been completely undermined.”
Given that xian values are apparently bigotry (anti-gay), mysogyny (anti-choice, and theocracy than that’s a good thing.
“But thinking that no one will ever get mad about their God being blasphemed! What? It doesn’t work..”
Strawman. No one ever said we thought no one would ever be offended. What you don’t seem to understand is we don’t give a fuck if you are offended
“whatever I’m sorry Lya, that was my fault for making mock of your holy Athiest symbol. I should have known that we can’t talk about anything but bunnies and crafts. (I can’t even fool myself that was so unheart felt.)”
I don’t understand that last sentence at all. And yet another strawman, I never said the atheism symbol was important to me. You made a dumbass remark about it and it turns out you had no idea what you were talking about – yet again.
Feel free to never talk to me at all. I certainly won’t miss it.
Why do you come here? You know you’re bullshit isn’t wanted, you know you are every bit as bad as you claim we are, you know you’re childish sky-fairies delusions will be mocked. Are you a glutton for punishment.
Oh wait a minute. You’re an xian – of course you’re a glutton for punishment.
8 February 2006, on 8:10 am
““Until someone can provide real testable evidence to support their religion you theists really need to shut up”
THere’s no “real testable evidence” for your belief that there isn’t a God either.”
You’re missing the point. There is no “testable evidence” that unicorns don’t exist either. So, do you believe in those too?
Atheists do not basing our entire lives around a being that has no proof of existence, and around books written by primitive people despite all that we know now.
The way you know gods are fake: when your gawd hates whom you hate, is against what you’re against, your god is fake.
8 February 2006, on 2:27 pm
“If you haven’t noticed Christian values have been completely undermined.”
That’s not our problem. Christian values have no place other than in the Christian church or in the lives of individuals. It is not the place of the public sector to support Christian values, especially when those values curtail the liberties of others, as in Lya’s examples of bigotry, misogyny, and theocracy. The problem is that one important Christian value is the need to go out and win converts. Christians aren’t happy unless they’re forcing their beliefs on others. As an atheist, I could care less what anyone else believes as long as it doesn’t infringe on the happiness and well-being of others. There is a very important reason why I post on this forum and not on Christian forums: I have no interest in winning converts. Believe whatever the fuck you want to believe but quit trying so fucking hard to make others like-minded. We have no place for your sheep-like mentality. Look around this board and see that other than not believing in sky-fairies, there is not a common mindset. Some of us are live and let live. Others want nothing more than to blast every aspect of religious belief out of the water. Some of us take a more academic interest in why believers believe. The biggest problem with the mental framework of the religious is that they think every group shares a firm set of beliefs. Therefore, their strategy is a one sized fits all approach. “Since atheists all share the same set of beliefs, x,y, and z should work to convert all of them.” Time and again you show how little you understand us.
8 February 2006, on 11:19 pm
Personally I don’t think christian “values” are worth a rat’s ass and neither are the “values” of any other dumbassed religion. Like it or not believing in this garbage is no different than an adult believing in fairy tales or having an imaginary friend, it’s utterly stupid and deserves *zero* respect. My big problems with religion is that theists (particularly sucky christians) won’t keep their idiot beliefs to themselves, they insist on trying to push their idiot beliefs on everyone and make laws and policies based upon these idiot beliefs which affect everyone. Get it through your thick heads you dumbassed theists that not everyone believes in this dumbassed garbage and it will never be the case so either keep your beliefs to yourselves or go shove them up your asses, got it ? Why isn’t it enough to pray and prattle on with your garbage in your private lives ?? STOP TRYING TO PUSH YOUR CRAP ON OTHER PEOPLE WHO AREN’T INTERESTED !! Also religion is one of the single worst concepts ever conceived by humanity, it’s extremely divisive causing many problems not the least of which is conflicts which lead to wars. It’s primitive and full of arbitrary non-sense and it can get in the way of scientific progress. All religions need to be discarded as primitive myths for the betterment of humanity. DOWN WITH RELIGION !!!
10 February 2006, on 11:31 am
If “good” is relative,then “evil” is relative.Now if they’re both relative and they both co-exist,then,first of all,EVERYTHING would be relative,even society’s needs.And second,they both would have to be complete and autonomous.Because,if up is down,and left is right,then right is as good as left,and left can exist autonomously,just as right can.The reason the “flux” is concrete is because if the wrong is right,then the worst right can be,is wrong.And the best that worst can be is wrong.To me its very obvious that you have to either have no morals(anthing goes) or have something concrete and metaphysical(God) that defines wrong…
10 February 2006, on 11:46 am
Trevor:
If atheists had no morals, you would be dead by now.
There’s your proof.
10 February 2006, on 12:25 pm
“To me its very obvious that you have to either have no morals(anthing goes) or have something concrete and metaphysical(God) that defines wrong… ”
Which is how we know you’re just a kid who doesn’t have a clue. You’re looking to a non-existent deity to tell you how to be good, so you get your afterlife cookie. That’s a childish mindset.
We’re saying now is what matters. I spend my weekends doing volunteer work at a few shelters in my city. I donate blood every other month. I donate my hair (for making wigs for cancer patients)every other year. I knit like mad, so I make blankets for Porject Linus (for kids in shelters, refugee camps or in the hospital).
I do all of this because it is every humans duty to help as much as they can, in my eyes. Sitting around and praying to gawd is doing absolutely NOTHING.
I’m willing to bet you don’t do half of what I do. Now, please explain to me how I lack morals.
10 February 2006, on 2:22 pm
Agh..I’ve said this over and over again,I’m not saying that the atheists themselves do not have morals.I’m saying, if there is no God then there is nothing to define what is good,sure,helping out at a homeless shelter is good,but where did you get the idea it was good?Because of intrinsic experience?Because you know its helping society?Let’s apply this same way of thinking to a different situation.If I killed your mom,because your mom was trying to kill me,have I injured society by killing your mom?Or have I helped society because I stopped your mom from killing me?(Btw,I’m not threatening to kill anyone,I’m using it as an example)
This might seem like a graphic example(which it is) but I think it gets the point across.
“I spend my weekends doing volunteer work at a few shelters in my city. I donate blood every other month. I donate my hair (for making wigs for cancer patients)every other year. I knit like mad, so I make blankets for Porject Linus (for kids in shelters, refugee camps or in the hospital).”
Bravo Lya,do you include cussing out 14 year olds who are just trying to argue a logical point as one of your humanitarian acts?
“I’m willing to bet you don’t do half of what I do. Now, please explain to me how I lack morals.”
Why do you assume everything about me?If I tried to assume anything about you,or generalize about atheists you would bash and insult me to no end…I don’t donate my hair or knit(that’s great you do though)But first of all I’m 14,and second of all if I told you the things that I have done,you wouldnt care or you wouldnt believe me,so it doesn’t matter.
10 February 2006, on 2:40 pm
“Bravo Lya,do you include cussing out 14 year olds who are just trying to argue a logical point as one of your humanitarian acts?”
Excellent evasion. Translation: “You aren’t behaving the way I say you should!”
I’ve said before I don’t believe you are 14 nor do I care. This is not your board. I will do as I please. And nowhere in the post did I “cuss” you out. If you want to debate with the big boys you need to stop playing the age card. It’s pathetic.
“I’m willing to bet you don’t do half of what I do. Now, please explain to me how I lack morals.”
“Why do you assume everything about me? If I tried to assume anything about you,or generalize about atheists you would bash and insult me to no end”
*sighs* Anyone got the emoticon that bangs its head against the desk? I keep losing the link.
“But first of all I’m 14,”
AGAIN with the fucking age card. I don’t give a fuck what age you claim to be. But for the record I began doing all these things when I was 9.
“and second of all if I told you the things that I have done,you wouldnt care or you wouldnt believe me,so it doesn’t matter.”
Irrelevent and another excellent evasion of the point.
10 February 2006, on 2:46 pm
…I’m not saying that the atheists themselves do not have morals.I’m saying, if there is no God then there is nothing to define what is good,sure,helping out at a homeless shelter is good,but where did you get the idea it was good?
Trevor, did you ever answer my question from before?
10 February 2006, on 2:52 pm
“I’m saying, if there is no God then there is nothing to define what is good,sure,helping out at a homeless shelter is good,but where did you get the idea it was good?Because of intrinsic experience?Because you know its helping society?”
this is a mass of reprehensible grammar.
Whether or not there is a god has absolutely no bearing on what defines good and evil. This has been explained ad nauseum. Do you need god to tell you that it’s bad when another human being is starving? Do you have NO compassion? NO empathy?
When I was a kid my family came very close to being homeless. I was helpless then to stop it. I am not helpless now. BECAUSE there is no god it is our duty to help each other. Why is this such a difficult concept for you? There is no eternal beach party with Jesus. Here and now is what matters.
If it were you down in the gutter, you’d want help. If it were someone I loved that needed shelter, I would hope someone would help if I weren’t around to do so myself. THAT is how I know it is a good thing. I don’t need a 2,000 year old book of mythology (which says more in praise of harming others) to tell me how to live. And neither do you.
“This might seem like a graphic example(which it is) but I think it gets the point across.”
Yes, it does. If the point is you consistantly talk out of your ass. Your example makes absolutely no sense and is entirely irrelevent. WTF does murder – self-defense or not – have to do with this? The fact that you bring murder in to every debate makes me wonder about you.
10 February 2006, on 3:06 pm
“Does god find meaning in himself, or does he find it outside of himself?”
Before I answer this,know that I’m saying all of this from within a christian worldview so all of this is accepted.Where as I don’t see how your question is even valid.Because since,you don’t believe in a God, how can you presuppose God?Which is what you have to do for the question to have meaning.All of my questions are theoretical instances in regard to an atheistic philsophy,but I don’t have to pressupose that there is no God for them to be valid,I only have to presuppose the atheistic philosophy.But none the less, here goes.
The concept behind God is that he is orginial.He created the universe,not chance.So,there was never anything before him,nothing for him to take his meaning from,nothing “outside” to find his meaning in.So He must be meaning,he MUST have meaning,since he created us and before him there was nothing.
Lya-I don’t know what your point is…but you didn’t answer the question-so,i’ll say it again.
If I killed your mom,because your mom was trying to kill me,have I injured society by killing your mom?Or have I helped society because I stopped your mom from killing me?
10 February 2006, on 3:10 pm
Oh,just read comment 291,the point in my question is,if your moral compass is whatever helps society,then what happens in an example like this,when the “needs of society” conflict…it’s quite obvious…
10 February 2006, on 3:23 pm
“Lya-I don’t know what your point is…but you didn’t answer the question-so,i’ll say it again.”
Translation: “What doesn’t work I’m going to try again and again and expect different results.” There aren’t any smaller words to use to help you understand. I’ve made my point as clear as day. Try reading, then repsonding.
“Oh,just read comment 291,the point in my question is,if your moral compass is whatever helps society,then what happens in an example like this,when the “needs of society” conflict…it’s quite obvious… ”
It’s quite obvious you’re really really trying to justify belief in a god-fairy.
Let’s try a bigger example:
Hiroshima. Dropping the bomb helped end the war. What it the moral thing to do? (We already know it was godly – smiting your enemies is what he’s all about. Remember he comes with the sword.)
10 February 2006, on 3:48 pm
“I only have to presuppose the atheistic philosophy”
**”I only have to presuppose that the atheistic philosophy exists”
10 February 2006, on 5:05 pm
296
10 February 2006, on 8:39 pm
297
10 February 2006, on 8:49 pm
298
Prepare to eat your words, cluckin’ chicken.
10 February 2006, on 9:09 pm
Trevor, I think this happens to be relevant to your questions:
http://www.hankfox.com/
Click on his “gods and morals” link under the title “New Essay Up”. There, a whole fuckin’ essay for ya trevor.
10 February 2006, on 9:12 pm
Wow, 300 comments!
10 February 2006, on 10:15 pm
300!! Wow. Ok, with that out of the way, Trevor, I think you’re ignoring what several of us have asked you to do. Namely, please take some time and ponder the thoughtful responses that some of us have written to you instead of just saying “yeah, but…” We have answered your questions time and again but instead of really paying attention to our answers, you immediately argue with them. Do yourself a favor. Read some of the responses you’ve received, take day off and actually think about them, then respond. I don’t believe you’re giving yourself any time to reflect. Of course I could be wasting my time here…
10 February 2006, on 10:42 pm
Stupid little twit trevor,
Only morally bankrupt idiots get their “morals” from some stupid backward-assed primitive book which was written thousands of years ago and based on some non-existent deity. If you think your garbage book is so great then get it out and give this site a read and tell us how you reconcile the stuff listed with real world morals and ethics – http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm
11 February 2006, on 4:47 am
Trevor… Bravo, well done! I am so proud of you. You Rock. you never lost your cool with these Lyttle atheists…If we bring it up to 400 I bet you will be a really good typist by then…just practice, practice. (Hey, just look at how much I have improved;) and Lya already can’t believe that you are only 14…that’s just so cool.
Speaking of losing it….I think Sean is having a melt down on Brenda. It’s bad enough that she is married to an atheist…I beat her out by 3 years…..poor poor woman. Then out of no where “nobody” brings up verbal abuse!? Unreal. It is starting to feel like the happy holidays again.
EoR….Your dark bible is full of crap..and I wish you knew it to. If you even half way believed the crap that is written on “dark bible” you are not searching very hard for the TRUTH. This is why I am always talking about Hank…UNDERSTANDING the Bible is VERY IMPORTANT. “Dark bible” is so out of context and yet it claims to understand human history!? Let me brake down the whole thing for you…in the simplest forms.
God made man…it was good.
God gives man freewill and man goes bad.
God LOVES man so much that He has allowed us to live today just so I can talk to you about who he REALLY is.
People do have the Holy Bible and because the Holy Spirit is moving now people are reading the Bible and reading it to understand…where is this loving God I have been hearing about? All of a sudden you can even see a loving God at work in the OT despite the fact that man is so bad that God should have just started over and whipped us off the face of the earth like and eye booger. War…War…War…murder, rape, steeling, it’s all there in the Bible.
and ya babies do get killed . and Sodom and Gomorrah got wiped out…and lots of Wrath. And even the loving and perfect Jesus Christ Himself gets pissed off at his chosen people in the Temple.
Fairy Tale! You know that I’m not talking about some fairy tale. You want your cake and your going to eat it too. You want to believe that we all somehow crawled out of the Evolutionary ooze…mated with the “opposite” sex… Oh ya…then Jesus comes along and is all over history (even “Dark bible” doesn’t deny Jesus) then makes up crap about Jesus and you believe it. ??????
“If we wish to become a peaceful species, it may well serve us to understand the forces of belief that keep us in continual conflict and why the Bible has such a stronghold on the minds of people around the world.” The thing is you are blaming God and denying Him in the same breath.
Marcus….You are right again, I am so eating my words already. And to top it off someone named “ssabmub” is masquerading as me!
Lya…you are a really really good person. Taking care of the poor is just the kind of thing Jesus would like us to do. I think it is great that you are making/knitting/quilting nice things like that. I am sure that it is appreciated.
Lets just talk about crafts, from now on…I hate it when you are mad at me.
Ron…I am holding a hot glue gun to my temple…and I can’t do it! Why don’t you just block me for a month and get it over with. But what would be the fun in that. and it’s keeping me from writing on my own blog.
11 February 2006, on 10:17 am
prEAch it To eM sistA!
You only ever pay attention the the emotional aspects of something don’t you? If someone is listing the reasons you are wrong, and uses the word fuck in their post, maybe bears some fangs, you’ll completely ignore the content of their rant won’t you? Or perhaps you simply oversimplify everything they say by overcompacting it down to what you think their general message is, in other words, if someone has a long list of scientific explainations of something that basically aims to prove something or make a logical point, you won’t pay attention to the actual content to verify if it’s true or not, but take merely the general idea (for example, “they’re trying to prove evolution”) and whip out a list of questions to run through and accusations to make, then, when they reply, perhaps even angrier than the first time or angry if they weren’t the first time, and reply with the reasons which they probably said the first time that would’ve made your bullshit questions unusable had you read them and took the time to really consider them, and then you act all high and morally mighty when people start getting indignant and calling you names and shit, but you’ve found a way to sound confident and piss us off (which you no doubt associate with us being angry at your percieved superiority to us just to keep up the illusion) and that gets you your dopamine fix so who cares what the right answer is right?
Come on sable, you have the brain of the smartest fucking group of animals on this planet, life is too short to waist that on getting your fix of happy brain chemicals at the expense of rationality like mother nature’s crackwhore.
11 February 2006, on 11:44 am
Stupid sable chicky,
For starters you really need to get you head out of your stupid garbage bible and learn how to spell. Next don’t presume you know me bitch.
Atheists aren’t blaming your fantasy god for anything, you can’t blame that which doesn’t exist, we’re blaming your religious beliefs for dividing the world, causing endless problems and screwing it up. How many times do we have to tell you dumbassed theists that we do NOT believe in your stupid religions ?!?
Let me make things clear for you:
- Earth’s solar system was formed ~4.5 billion years ago.
- Homo Sapiens (humans) *evolved* from lesser lifeforms and we simply are.
- Primitive humans created the idea of gods in an attempt to explain the world around them without the benefit of scientific understanding.
- Modern humans who *do* have the benefit of scientific understanding are incredibly stupid to still believe in this crap.
Your stupid bible is wrong from the get go and this proves it was written by primitive people without scientific understanding. Consider it makes the ludicrous claim that everything was created in 144 hours which of course is impossible. It also make the ludicrous claims that the Earth was created before the Sun and there was light on the Earth without the Sun !! Anyone who knows anything about astrophysics knows this crap is completely wrong and comes from a total lack of scientific understanding. This is what you want to base your life on ?? You are one stupid unintelligent brainwiped bitch !!
Weren’t you going to stop coming to this fourm ? If you’re just coming here to preach and proselytize then get it through your little head that atheists ARE NOT INTERESTED. GOT IT STUPID BITCH ?!?!? YOU CAN TAKE YOUR STUPID BELIEFS AND SHOVE THEM UP YOUR ASS ALONG WITH YOUR STUPID GARBAGE BIBLE !!!!
11 February 2006, on 11:54 am
Before I answer this,know that I’m saying all of this from within a christian worldview so all of this is accepted.
Interesting preamble, Trevor. That’s like saying, “Ok, what I’m about to say I have no real arguments or reasons for, but I believe what I’m about to say, and so do other people.” Please.
Where as I don’t see how your question is even valid.Because since,you don’t believe in a God, how can you presuppose God?Which is what you have to do for the question to have meaning.
It’s called granting assumptions for the sake of the argument, Trevor. Aristotle (a pre-xian, probably burning in hell right now)once said that it’s a sign of intelligence to be able to entertain a proposition without actually accepting it. Food for thought, and some advice you’d do well to heed.
The concept behind God is that he is orginial.He created the universe,not chance.So,there was never anything before him,nothing for him to take his meaning from,nothing “outside” to find his meaning in.So He must be meaning,he MUST have meaning,since he created us and before him there was nothing.
So, once again, god either becomes meaning by definition (sleazy), or god’s meaning is whatever he thinks is meaningful, aside from, and in many cases in opposition to, any other concepts of meaning that we humans may have (nihilism).
Yes, Trevor, I’m just so envious of your nihilistic-based “meaningful life” right now. It’s a wonder why I didn’t see it before.
11 February 2006, on 8:13 pm
Enemy of Religion Says:
For starters you really need to get you(r) head out of your stupid garbage bible and learn how to spell.(HA) Next don’t presume you know me bitch. (I never said I presume to know anything about you…I don’t even know if you are a man or a woman.)
I’m not done with you…EoR
I’m going to take some aspirin and get right back to you.
Ford are you needy for some attention too?
11 February 2006, on 10:17 pm
Yes please, spank my naughty ass.
13 February 2006, on 8:15 am
“and Lya already can’t believe that you are only 14…that’s just so cool.”
Does she really think that’s what I meant? Is she really that fucking stupid? That was not a compliment to his debating prowess. He doesn’t have any.
“God LOVES man so much that He has allowed us to live today just so I can talk to you about who he REALLY is.”
Yep, she is the fucking stupid.
““Dark bible” is so out of context and yet it claims to understand human history!?”
Way to make it obivous you don’t comprehend either the bible or the site.
13 February 2006, on 12:11 pm
“Taking care of the poor is just the kind of thing Jesus would like us to do. ”
I didn’t see this back-handed insult before. What nerve you have to insult me for helping others while you do nothing. Sable, you’re a disgusting pig.
13 February 2006, on 10:55 pm
LYA…Why are you saying that I am a disgusting pig? What makes you think that is appropriate?
LYA…Why are you saying that I am a disgusting pig? What makes you think that is appropriate?
“Taking care of the poor is just the kind of thing Jesus would like us to do. ”
I am getting from you that it hurts your feelings if I mention Jesus?
15 February 2006, on 7:25 am
I call you exactly what you are – a disgusting pig.
Disgusting pigs like you can’t hurt my feelings, but thanks for that laugh. To give credit for my work to some imaginary deity is a sizeable insult. You’re an ignorant hateful bitch. Fuck off.
15 February 2006, on 11:05 pm
“No one can be held accountable for their behavior on GifS.”
16 February 2006, on 3:25 am
Re: “No one can be held accountable for their behavior on GifS.”
Whatever that means. Why is it in quotes? Did someone say that?
I think this site holds people accountable more than most.
16 February 2006, on 8:44 pm
Sean, The person that said this knows who they are. It is so disturbing to me that, I am not sure what more to say about it than…what I quoted.. who cares anyway
16 February 2006, on 9:12 pm
Well, they certainly didn’t say it anywhere in this thread.
17 February 2006, on 3:11 pm
Yes you are so right.
17 February 2006, on 3:20 pm
Hey Sean, what kind of art are you doing?
Is it photography? I like your site, it is an interesting perspective of every day city life.
17 February 2006, on 10:23 pm
That quote is from the comment section of my blog. Of course that dumbass bitch completely missed the point as usual.
18 February 2006, on 3:15 pm
Lya are you proud of not even being honest with the people that love you? I think you have a verbal abuse addiction problem. Either you don’t hate Christians as much as you say you do or…Or you need to own up to your behavior. Ohh I get it in your world you can do any thing you want and it is all Oaky Dokey. You can’t be held accountable for the things you alone have done. You want to be with a Christian….why…because they are trustworthy, nice, honest, …oh, but there is a great big draw back they believe in heaven! Give me a brake.!!! Do you really think that your cold heartless out look on life and death is going to make him…all of a sudden think that there is nothing after this?
18 February 2006, on 3:25 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
You should work on the problems in your own marriage before you rip anyone for their relationships. I’m sure all the attention you spend here could be used in a positive effort to stop your husband from beating you, get him to be faithful and prevent him from molesting your daughter. Just a suggestion, ya know?
21 February 2006, on 6:28 pm
“Makin’ it Up Marky”
YOU ARE RUDE!
Is this the way you talk in “real” life? Have you also brainwashed yourself, with over 18 hours of Fight Club?
I think you would not…
If you do… well, than you are not hiding behind a suckersite mask like some people that I will not mention.
23 February 2006, on 3:14 pm
See what I mean? She’s a complete and total dumbass. Sean looked over my site and saw exactly what she’s refering to. And agrees that this worthless bitch completely missed the point.
Fuck off Sable – I think you have some serious brain damage. If we’re so so evil why do you keep wasting our time? As usual you’re spouting a bunch of badly spelt bullshit. For the seven hundreth time I’m not interested in changing anyone’s beliefs. Least of all a worthless fuck like you.
24 February 2006, on 8:54 pm
Ohh Ohh…Sean understands you…mmmm. I’m sorry then, I am so seriously brain damaged that I am still trying to figure out the rules here are atheistsareus.com. Oh yah thanks for pointing out that my spelling is bad…I had to look up the word “spelt”, really! It wasn’t in my speller…but I did find it in an old Dictionary. I would have spelt the word “refering” like referring, but then I would doubt myself and have to look it up. I wish I was more like you and was confident about the words I was typing.
Lya, I when out and rented the “Fight Club”…It’s a well made movie, and I even liked it. Did you really watch it 9 times in a weekend, or are you just pulling my leg?
I’m sorry that I called you “evil”, I was just trying to make light of all the bad names you are calling me. I was being a bit sarcastic because,….my feelings got hurt. But that is no good reason to say that to you… truths?
25 February 2006, on 12:52 am
Sable,
Don’t look now! Your husband is in your daughter’s room, wearing a clown shirt, make-up, and assless chaps! He’s got three inch woody and she’s crying right now while you waste time here! Save your daughter!!! It’s with her that he is cheating on you! Save yourself and your child before it’s too late!!!
25 February 2006, on 3:23 am
Sable said:
Did you really watch it 9 times in a weekend, or are you just pulling my leg?
Pulling a chicken leg?
Marcus: You’re a meanie.
Sable: If a rooster laid an egg at the peak of a roof top, what side of the roof would the egg roll off?
25 February 2006, on 3:24 am
PS: Bobbo… 400, ya think??
27 February 2006, on 12:44 am
Marcus, that’s so fucked up of you to do yet I can’t stop laughing.
27 February 2006, on 7:33 am
Marcus- thanks for making me laugh out loud.
Sable – STILL don’t get the joke, do you.
27 February 2006, on 12:10 pm
“If a rooster laid an egg at the peak of a roof top, what side of the roof would the egg roll off?”
Ok…let me think…the left side…wait…I think the right…hold on…is this a trick question!? I wish roosters would lay eggs, all they want to do is fight. I hate to get rid of them because the all have names and they are so pretty, but it’s starting to look like the movie Fight Club in my back yard. I give them girl names from the Bible and I tell my husband that they are all hens. So when he asks “Why is Eve crowing?” I just tell him that hens will do that once in a while.
Now Sean…if you asked something like, If a hand raised wild black cat, decided to take up residence on your roof, what side of the roof would she poop on? I would know that…the south side. DAH!
27 February 2006, on 5:30 pm
So sorry for your loss of a family memeber, Lya.
I thought about you this weekend, don’t know why…(well, maybe I do know why)…anyway I found myself thinking about you this weekend. Three different times I saw bunnies over the last few days. First at the feed store, there were three little bunnies for sale. They put them in a open barrel, so anyone can just pick them up and hold them. I couldn’t help myself, as much as rabbits don’t do anything for me, I still had to hold this little black one. Just darling! To bad they don’t stay that small forever. Then the Sunday paper had a cartoon about a pet house rabbit that would chew on the electrical cords and get a shock. The rabbit would drop the cord, and 2 seconds later he would forget and chew on it again. It was funny, I hope you saw it. The 3rd thing that made me think about you, was…I put fifty cents in a vending machine and out came a sticker of a cute cartoon bunny that said with a happy little smile. “Hateing you warms my heart”…for some reason, it just made me think…”Lya Kahlo”
I am sorry that you had a tough weekend.
27 February 2006, on 6:37 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
It seems only you are capable of coming into someone’s home and slapping them in the face- thanks for being a cunt.
27 February 2006, on 7:25 pm
Actually, I thought what Sable said was sweet. She knows she and Lya don’t exactly get along, but she wanted to say something compassionate about Lya’s loss while not ignoring the past, shall we say, “debates” the two have engaged in. I think when she thinks of that smiling bunny, she is imagining Lya being the one saying the words to Sable, not the other way around.
28 February 2006, on 12:55 am
Thank you Sean.
1 March 2006, on 8:47 am
““Hateing you warms my heart”…for some reason, it just made me think…”Lya Kahlo” ”
Yeah, Sean, what a sweet thing to say. Out of one side of her mouth she pretends to send condolenes-out of the other she writes something asinine and hateful. If she thought this would soften me – mocking my loss and then blaming me for it – she’s a bigger idiot than previously thought.
For the record I don’t hate Sable. I don’t know her. I hate her dumbass religion and nearly every word she types, but not her personally. Hate doesn’t warm anyone’s heart. But she knew that was a safe back handed swipe.
Marcus got it right : It seems only you are capable of coming into someone’s home and slapping them in the face- thanks for being a cunt.
1 March 2006, on 9:21 am
Sorry. I guess I didn’t see it that way. For the record, I think Sable’s perspective on things is full of shit, too (note I said perspective, rather than saying Sable herself is bad)…
But when I posted what I said, I was thinking she was trying to mean well… I thought it was a kind of olive branch. At least, I was still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. As I am with all of humanity. I could be wrong… But I was trying to see it from a compassionate point-of-view towards all involved.
Maybe I was disarmed by the whole bunny thing. I love bunnies and used to have one myself.
Can’t we all just get along?
1 March 2006, on 10:18 am
“Sorry. I guess I didn’t see it that way. For the record, I think Sable’s perspective on things is full of shit, too (note I said perspective, rather than saying Sable herself is bad)… ”
No need for apologies, Sean. You didn’t offend me. I’m just sick of the back handed insults she tries to pass off as niceties. I, too, said it’s not her personally – because it isn’t. We don’t know her. What she posts is bullshit.
“But when I posted what I said, I was thinking she was trying to mean well… I thought it was a kind of olive branch.”
If it was she presented it in a terrible way.
“At least, I was still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.”
I used to do that too. And you’ve been here longer than I have, you’d know better than I would if that is the course to take with her. I simply don’t have the patience anymore. She’s a troll.
“I love bunnies and used to have one myself.”
“Can’t we all just get along?”
In a perfect world…
1 March 2006, on 4:28 pm
Lya, I am being so nice to you right now. I am sorry that that might have come off just a little bit “back handed”. But like what Sean read into my comment…I was trying my best to be true to myself and the way, I know that you feel about me. You are a racist, Lya….You do love to hate “people” like me because you think it is ok. I want to leave this SukCarSite on a happy note…..But, no you guys “just what to get along” BS!?
“What can we do to piss that stupid chicken off..teehee”
I’m there!?
not at you Sean, I’m giving you some slack..because of that cute little baby owl photo. (and the knock knock joke photo)
Marcus …suck my COCK, and I don’t mean it in a good F-ING way.
I’m a typing atheist enough for you to understand what I am saying. I bet $500 bucks that you a teacher of BS in some jr college…and you are teaching Social Problems..with out a solution (lets all go to Giligan’s Island and laugh our selves to death on jello shooters, while the world goes to Hell) You are incredible!
I don’t even care if I am sounding alittle bit …off my meds…
I got to go
but I am not done
1 March 2006, on 5:37 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
Getting a little rowdy, aren’t you? With an attitude like that, you’re daughter is really going to wish you had gone ahead with that knitting needle and coat hanger. Poor girl- your husband is probably dangling his balls over her mouth right now while you spend time here. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was stretching his scrote over her eyes and nose.
1 March 2006, on 5:46 pm
Well, Sable… There goes any sympathy I had for you. It’s not what meds you went off… More like, what the fuck are on?
I am afraid I am gonna have to be a liberal flip-flopper (you know the term: it’s what right-wing hateful assholes use to belittle those who actually stop and self-question) and say Marcus and Lya are right: you are a hateful bitch after all. That last post was disgusting.
I bet $500 bucks that you a teacher of BS in some jr college…and you are teaching Social Problems..with out a solution (lets all go to Giligan’s Island and laugh our selves to death on jello shooters, while the world goes to Hell)
That’s the most retarded thing I’ve heard all week. I will be sure to repeat it back to your children 30 years from now as they serve me my burger and fries — or, if their non-science theistic stupidity really scores for them in the global economy — finish wiping down the toilet I just crapped in at the back of a bar in Amsterdam.
People like you are the reason this country is going to hell, you fucknozzle.
That’s okay. China is there to pick up the slack. Life goes on. Just without America the Ignorant.
Fuckin’ chickenhead. I’d have some respect for you if you just admitted you were dumb as cluck and asked for help. Instead, like all of your fundie ilk, you’re angry and self-righteous. Turn the flashlight on yourself, bizitch.
1 March 2006, on 6:50 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
When you get back, I’d love to hear how your crazy-ass sister is doing. Has she tried garroting herself with a bedsprin yet?
2 March 2006, on 1:27 am
There is no getting through to you is there!? The name calling! I have never in my whole life been called all the names and nasty things you guys have called me. But it is a double standard isn’t it. You can do it to me but if I get mad….it’s “How could she!” I haven’t even begun to “witness” to you, but you hate me anyway. I have tried to be so careful with everything that I have said to all of you…What is the point!?
You don’t respect me because I took your crap with a good additute and you don’t respect me when I get mad and give you back a taste of your own treatment.
I can’t touch your hearts, what is the point of telling you about anything. God’s not working on you guys, because you don’t want it. You don’t want to see Him. You don’t want to know Him. He only gave you life, and you don’t even care. Out of all this Gifs crap, God has been working on me, not you!. And I will tell you and you will not understand. I had it all and I didn’t need God, I walked a way from Him and made a decision to stop looking for Him. And signed a symbolic contract with the Devil. I was knocked off my high horse and set straight. I was warned, but like you, I just knew too much to be troubled with that nonsense. Marcus I have gone nose to nose in a fight with Satan, you don’t even begin to scare me. I looked into his dead yellow eyes and was rescued by Jesus. Before all this I married an atheist…I know your type. Marcus your sick jokes…you all laugh…shame on you. You guys act like I just walked in on your private AA meeting held in a basement somewhere in the middle of nowhere…Hello, your on the internet, for crying out loud. I understand your verbal abuse addiction, because I have had to live with it. Don’t let your hearts get to hard.
Sean I think the “jello” thing set you off, didn’t it. Penn can dish it out but can take it…come on.
So it looks like about half of your readers are hooked up with xians. I am the flip side. Walking around on egg shells because I don’t want to upset the almightly athiest with the word….*god*…on no! all hell will brake loose, be careful of the fragile ego of the atheist.
It is truely amazing all this to fight for the “freedom to insult” and at the same time, you what to sue the daylights out of world because someone is talking about a god that doesn’t exist somewhere.
I’m done now.
2 March 2006, on 7:41 am
“I was trying my best to be true to myself and the way, I know that you feel about me. You are a racist, Lya….You do love to hate “people” like me because you think it is ok.”
Thankfully I don’t give a shit what you think of me. I don’t hate anyone, not even you. Your religion is childish nonsense and your behavior here is the epitome of asinine. But since you’re too much of a coward to own up to that, you put it all on me. What a good little victim for christ you are.
Hate doesn’t makes anyone feel better. But for cowards like you, feeling persecuted does.
“It is truely amazing all this to fight for the “freedom to insult” and at the same time, you what to sue the daylights out of world because someone is talking about a god that doesn’t exist somewhere. ”
ACtualy, what’s truly amazing is that this is honesty what you think is happening here. That you can’t see where you are at fault is not only unsurprising, it’s par for the “i’m such a victim” course.
For the very last time – No one cares if you talk about your imaginary friend. However, to come to an atheist board and type things like “that’s just the sort of thing jesus would like us to do.” is flame bait. Even a dipshit like you knows that.
You do it, and then play the role of hapless victim just so you can paint us as nasty and evil without taking an ounce of personal responsibility for your behavior which is knowingly designed to incite heated retorts.
We see through your bullshit.
Call me all the names you like. You’re a coward who plays at being a victim just to slander other people. THAT is far more bigoted.
2 March 2006, on 8:30 am
Anyone else find it unendingly hilarious that all the while she’s whining about being treated unfairly (while causing and deserving every bit of it) SHE is now insulting everyone at every turn?
Please Sable, keep up the amazingly offkey and horribly misspelled psychoanalysis. I’m getting a huge kick out of it.
2 March 2006, on 10:58 am
Cluckin’ Chicken,
I made a special button just for you. If you don’t understand, look at the file name.
2 March 2006, on 11:01 am
What the hell- that’s the second time that’s happened…
Here’s the button.
2 March 2006, on 12:36 pm
Marcus you are scarier than Micheal Jackson.
Lya, Give me a brake…this whole suckersite is set up as bait for God fearing idiots like me. I just gave you a little taste of your own crap.
2 March 2006, on 12:39 pm
That’s right sable, make up new excuses instead of taking personal responsiblity. Good little cowardly victim for christ. And let’s not forget hypocrite.
2 March 2006, on 1:13 pm
Who is “Micheal Jackson”? A Russian relative of Michael Jackson? You see, Michael Jackson is just some poor individual with obvious emotional problems and is also easily taken advantage of by money-thirsty assholes.
I can’t be scarier than Jackson, because he is worthy of pity and really isn’t frightening. He needs help more than prosecution. Of course, weird racist xian freaks like yourself would stop at nothing to see him crucified. Yes, I did just compare Jackson to Jizzus.
2 March 2006, on 1:27 pm
On a much more intersting note (as opposed to reading more of sable’s self-pitying spew-) it’s snowing so hard bingo had been cancelled. Evidently god got a enough money out of people today.
2 March 2006, on 4:38 pm
Sable said:
Lya, Give me a brake…this whole suckersite is set up as bait for God fearing idiots like me. I just gave you a little taste of your own crap.
If that’s why you think this site exists, then you clearly have not been paying attention.
3 March 2006, on 7:16 am
Of course she isn’t paying attention. That’s hard to do with your head so far up your ass.
3 March 2006, on 5:24 pm
Good bye all… it’s been real.
3 March 2006, on 7:24 pm
You’ll be back. You know you will. You’ve come back so many times already that we won’t trust you. And you can’t complain about our censoring- I visit your blog regularly to pick up new material to use against you and have witnessed your deletion of several comments that don’t fit your beliefs; don’t point any fingers at us.
3 March 2006, on 10:21 pm
Good grief this thread is still going on with the stupid cluckin’ chicken. Hey you dumb cluck, you don’t get any respect because you’re a stupid ignorant bitch who believes in primitive backward-assed anti-science fairy tales and come to an atheist board to ramble on about this crap.
Consider this idiotic statement – “I have gone nose to nose in a fight with satan”
Nose to nose in an imaginary fight with an imaginary being ?? You must have listened to “The Devil Went Down to Georgia” one time too many. You don’t need respect, you need a straitjacket and lots of meds.
5 March 2006, on 1:15 am
“I visit your blog”
Oh, do tell me the url. I was unaware of her blog. I’m morbidly curious.
5 March 2006, on 1:16 am
Wait, is it http://sablechicken.blogspot.com/ ?
5 March 2006, on 8:31 am
You got it, baby.
5 March 2006, on 9:40 am
The most recent individual on her “delete” list is some other blogger named “vile blasphemer”- I noticed she deleted one of his comments recently and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s commented in the past.
5 March 2006, on 10:15 am
What the fuck is a “sable”, anyway?
5 March 2006, on 1:48 pm
I looked up sable on dictionary.com the closest thing I could find that might make sense going with chicken is the adjective describing something as black, black chicken? I don’t know, looking at some of sable’s more recent comments and her blog, she seems like she might have something seriously fucked up with her. I know, I know, we all make fun of the religious folks as being crazy and fucked up but sable seems really fucked up.
5 March 2006, on 1:58 pm
From Sable’s blog:
Totally off the wall…..if I could say anything to you….what would it be?
~~~
Where am I going with this blog….I am not sure.I was sure when I started it…I think.I wanted to talk to people….or was it I just wanted to be heard?Things change….some times slowly…some times in a slit second.I wanted to tell my story…but I am not feeling the need like I did before.I kind of wanted to write about my personal journy…but sometimes it is just to personal.Some times it just doesn’t feel like it is worth it.Some times I feel like I am just trying to crack a nut all the wrong way.Some times I think that I am just trying too hard or not trying at all.I cant write and I never thought that I really could.It is a time suck Yet I have gotten so much out of blogging, maybe more then I thought I would get out of it. I think what I would really like is a better blog….with lots of photos and art. Rich beautiful colors.
The colors of Jello…TeeHee
~~~
I have a big art show coming up and I am working like crazy and the house is a mess, I what to sell sell sell some thing.
~~~
There was a bunch of Jesus freaks holding up signs on the corner in town to day.
“Jesus Christ saves and heals”
It just made my day.
Um… Yeah?? Fucked up for sure. It’s time we stopped making fun of her and started to suggest she seek help. Seriously, Sable. If you are out there, please go get help from a professional.
5 March 2006, on 8:43 pm
Ok…I am back. (kicking myself)
Marcus, I would like to say that I am sorry that I got mad at you on Monday. The whole “$*%k my c%$k” thing I said was pretty bad. I am sorry. I just have a limit…ok. And as far as the deleting of your comments, aka “vile blasphemer”…I got your messages, and thought it was you or Sean because of the back peddling about “don’t do anything illegal”. I know that kind of thing is all fun and games to you guys, it just sent a wave of feeling sick through me…I had to delete it, because I think that is illegal, or at least morally wrong. Do what you have to do, but I can’t be a part of that.
“Please go get help from a professional.” Sean, what would you suggest? Nobody cares….If I pay someone to pretend to care….will that make me think that there is no God?
Sable….what does it mean?
Animals can compel our love or admiration. Some amuse us; some annoy us. But only a few can enchant. For some reason–their bearing, their elusiveness, the remoteness of their habitat–such special animals embody an idealized view of nature, becoming the locus of human projections of power, nobility, and sensitivity of near-mythic proportions. The bald eagle, the gray whale, and the snow leopard are three such creatures. And so is the giant sable antelope of Angola, a rare and endangered mammal that few people outside its homeland have ever heard of.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_2_112/ai_98254972
That sounded better than what I originally wrote on my blog, about what the name Sable ment. Here is a nice picture of one for ya.
http://www.nature-wildlife.com/sab43.html
By the way Sean I like your picture of the lion…it remindes me of Aslan…”He’s not safe, but He is good”
5 March 2006, on 10:36 pm
Crazed cluckin’ chicken
You’re back which once again proves you’re a liar and a hypocrite, both of which are so very typical of religious dumbasses.
Do you realize just how completely nuts you sound when you write crazy crap like that “totally off the wall” comment and the stuff about your alledged “electrical energy problem” ?? Combine that with your stupid unintelligent backward-assed christian beliefs, your attempts to preach and proselytize on an atheist forum and the fact that you clearly have a problem with the proper usage of the English language and you come across as one *extremely* screwed up and ignorant bitch. You need to recognize imaginary beings as imaginary, chuck your bible into the nearest dumpster and check yourself into a mental institution.
5 March 2006, on 10:55 pm
“For some reason–their bearing, their elusiveness, the remoteness of their habitat–such special animals embody an idealized view of nature, becoming the locus of human projections of power, nobility, and sensitivity of near-mythic proportions.”
Perfect discription of a chicken.
When we said you needed help, we meant because you seem very scattered as a person, you just tend to say things that come right out of left field such as
“I think what I would really like is a better blog….with lots of photos and art. Rich beautiful colors.
The colors of Jello…TeeHee”
this, in and of itself is not bad, a bit eccentric, but not bad. You go apeshit and this is the kind of stuff that is slightly concerning
“Marcus I have gone nose to nose in a fight with Satan, you don’t even begin to scare me.”
We’re not saying you are a psycho or that this is real serious business, but you are a bit of a nut, you seem like you might be a happier person and more pleasant to be around if you weren’t so… excitable? Bipolar? Something to do with those two. You talk sort of nice and try to be friendly, then make things which can be interpreted as insults, but it’s hard to know if you are intentionally insulting or if it is part of some naive mistake (I’m not talking about the last post by you of course, that was a definate breakdown and insult session there, but rather, the slight things Lya has caught a few times). I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it’s hard because I don’t know exactly what you are yet and I’m a bit skeptical, because you are similar to people I’ve seen who seem simple and turn out to be complex and quite manipulative. Meh, I’m done with my jibberish, just ignore my incoherance.
Oh, by the way, did you tell marcus to suck your cock? Aren’t you, like, female or something? I always assumed based on everyone talking about your husband, it’d be really weird if you talk about evil sinners all of the time while you were on the gay scene, though it has been done.
5 March 2006, on 11:59 pm
Cluckin’ Chicken,
“And as far as the deleting of your comments, aka “vile blasphemer”…I got your messages, and thought it was you or Sean because of the back peddling about “don’t do anything illegal”. I know that kind of thing is all fun and games to you guys, it just sent a wave of feeling sick through me…I had to delete it, because I think that is illegal, or at least morally wrong. Do what you have to do, but I can’t be a part of that.”
What in the fuck are you talking about? So, now you have a paranoid persecution complex and think that I am commenting on your blog because I noticed that you are censoring others? Say hi to your sister for me when they drop you off in the looney bin and let her know that I’ll be in next week to brush her teeth with my dick.
PS- Remember, while you waste time here, your daughter is staring at the teddy bear in the corner and wishing it could save her from daddy since you won’t.
6 March 2006, on 12:46 am
Marcus, please just shut up already…it’s not funny.
6 March 2006, on 1:20 am
EoR…I take it that you just don’t like me?
“liar and a hypocrite” Did I say I was never comeing back? No…do I wish right now that I really did never come back? Yes. As far as hypocrite the churchs are full of them….at least Christians KNOW that they are hypocrites. You guys don’t think that you are sinners…we know that we are. Liar! come on I don’t have to make crap up…I can just report on reality. I don’t think I can talk to you…you are so superior to me.
6 March 2006, on 2:33 am
“Perfect discription of a chicken.”
Hey there is more to a chicken, then one might think.
Ha Ha… Ford, I smiled all through reading your comment. Thank you for talking to me like a real person.
Excitable? Bipolar? No…post tramatic stress, but that doesn’t quite describe it. It’s the 2 year anniversary of my fight with ‘Satan’. Sorry that sounds apes*%t. But I was held against my will and subjected to three days of brainwashing…got away…asked for help…didn’t get it…couldn’t sleep for 5 days…*really* (not the imaginary) crazy stuff started to happen….bla…bla..bla
5150
spent the next 72 hours in a mental institution, trying not to get raped or druged to the point that you don’t even know your own name. (It really is no place to drag a sane person off to get a few good nights of sleep.) In a place that if you want to stay sane…you have no one to count on but JESUS CHRIST. and at the time I hadn’t read the Bible or knew Him. I am so sorry that my writing is so bad…There is so much to this story that It would take me three hours just to speak it to you…but write it…it does sound crazy. Oh well…you guys all think that I am a nut anyway.
I never wanted to proselytize…but I am now “called” to it. I am stupid, idiot, nutjob that was sent to tell the “Good News” I know you don’t want to hear it…you think you all ready heard it and you understand and reject it.. I get it.
I understand what it is to be blind and deaf. I can’t move any of you. But I do care, and I don’t know why;)
6 March 2006, on 7:26 am
“But I do care, and I don’t know why”
Because you’re a good little lying cowardly victim for christ. Are you ever really going to leave or are you just going to keep lying about it?
6 March 2006, on 7:55 am
I have no privileges to edit comments on Bob’s postings, so I cannot delete Sable’s latest bullshit. Believe me, I tried. I am sick of the level of discourse she is creating. Ron and Bob: can we permanently ban this hack somehow?
Thanks.
6 March 2006, on 8:37 am
Cluckin’ Chicken,
“Marcus, please just shut up already…it’s not funny. “
Really? I think it is enormously funny. Especially your “pain” of being held against your will and having whatever done to you. I know you want us to pity you by bringing that up (probably to only throw the pity back in our faces), but I admit I can’t feel any since you support a position that has condoned far worse against non-believers. Your “pain” doesn’t even equal what your beliefs have wrought. Take your pity train elsewhere ya crazy whore- no one here will buy it. You act as if your “pain” is a unique, but I’ve got to tell you- there is nothing unique about your experience; you’re only too arrogant to understand that.
Your daughter, on the other hand, certainly will have something to write about involving clowns, surgical tubing, wire, and video cameras. In the end she’ll yell, “Oh yes, yes, the Aristocrats!”
Badumching.
6 March 2006, on 11:08 am
Crazed cluckin’ chicken
In message 353 you said “Good bye all… it’s been real.” – sounded like your intention was to never come back, LIAR !!
With each successive post you sound crazier and crazier. So you really were put in a mental institution, no surprise there. The only surprise is that they let you back out especially considering the way you ramble on and say that you need an imaginary being to stay sane. You do realize that crazy people often think they’re sane and that everyone else is crazy. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were (and perhaps still are) a substance abuser. From one loser dependency (drugs and/or alcohol) to another (religion).
What the heck does 5150 mean in the middle of your crazy ramblings ? Just a random number tossed in there for no reason at all, huh ? WHAT A NUTCASE !!
“I never wanted to proselytize…but I am now “called” to it. I am stupid, idiot, nutjob that was sent to tell the “Good News” I know you don’t want to hear it…you think you all ready heard it and you understand and reject it.. I get it.”
No you do not, if you did you would shut up you stupid bitch. How many times do you need to be told that atheists, agnostics and freethinkers do NOT NOT NOT believe in this primitive backward-assed anti-science nonsense ?!?!? In general our only interest in religion is to somehow find a way to eradicate this crap from society for the betterment of humanity. DO YOU GET IT NOW BITCH ?!?!? Take your preaching and proselytizing and shove it up your ass.
What’s really scary is that the piece of crap misrunning the country is very likely as screwed up as you.
C:\>sablechicken
Not ready error reading device BRAIN
Abort, Retry, Fail?r
Read fault error reading device BRAIN
Abort, Retry, Fail?f
General failure error reading device BRAIN
Abort, Retry, Fail?a
System halted
6 March 2006, on 12:30 pm
After reading that I am no entirely convinced that even if religion doesn’t make people crazy, crazy people are attracted to religion.
11 April 2006, on 5:29 am
Zorastianism/christianity is a way to control weak minded people.
3 January 2007, on 12:49 pm
Dan, you made this statement above:
“…if you do the exhaustive study on the greek septugant (incidentally, the “original Hebrew” texts were translated FROM the septugant in 900 AD)…”
I heard this from someone else, but I can’t find any sources for it. Do you have any?
3 January 2007, on 2:38 pm
You realize this is n 8-month old thread.
And I think the correct word is “Septuagint”.