Comments on: A Little Logic http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/ THIS BLOG IS NO LONGER ACTIVE. We've retired this blog, but the GifS gang is now active at Atheist Oasis (atheistoasis.wordpress.com). Visit us there! Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:44:32 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Adamsam http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-1595 Adamsam Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:15:36 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-1595 Bob's original proposition can be helpfully simplified to: 1.God is supposed to be all-good. 2.God is supposed to be all-powerful. 3.(Unnecessary) pain and suffering occurs regularly in the world. 1 and 2 cannot both be true. Bob’s original proposition can be helpfully simplified to:

1.God is supposed to be all-good.
2.God is supposed to be all-powerful.
3.(Unnecessary) pain and suffering occurs regularly in the world.

1 and 2 cannot both be true.

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By: Chris http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-1559 Chris Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:11:11 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-1559 This is what someone told me when I asked them to consider this post: 'But there is also free will. And if God stopped all instances of innocent suffering then he would be taking away free will. That doesn't mean he enjoys the suffering. Jesus wept at the tomb of a friend. God weeps when his children (all of humanity) weep. What hurts them hurts him.' 'But humanity chose to become their own god. That was Adam & Eve's sin at the beginning. "You can be like God." And humanity has been making that choice over and over since then. And people choose to be god rather than worship God, even many who are religious.' I don't consider it valid, but I don't know how to respond. This is what someone told me when I asked them to consider this post:

‘But there is also free will. And if God stopped all instances of innocent suffering then he would be taking away free will. That doesn’t mean he enjoys the suffering. Jesus wept at the tomb of a friend. God weeps when his children (all of humanity) weep. What hurts them hurts him.’

‘But humanity chose to become their own god. That was Adam & Eve’s sin at the beginning. “You can be like God.” And humanity has been making that choice over and over since then. And people choose to be god rather than worship God, even many who are religious.’

I don’t consider it valid, but I don’t know how to respond.

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By: Simon Peter http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-563 Simon Peter Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:36:29 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-563 The essence of the argument so far is to say that God is good but why certain things (that we perceived as bad is allowed to happen)=> thus God doesn't exist. Several points I want to discuss: But before that I 'll tell u all more about Christianity in simple language. Christianity is about the teaching of heart. After we die we either go to hell or heaven.Those place only God knows exactly what. No one knows completely what God is. But I know that God is the King of Heaven and He is the essence of what we call 'good things' (love, peace,etc). Hence, it is a fact that only good hearted people can go to heaven. Since God loves us and want us to have a good afterlife (live in heaven), He tells us how our heart should be and how to achieve it(Christianity contains it and so other religion), though His words may be misunderstood by human stupidity, motives, emotion,etc. It's fine if at this point u assume God as hypothetical being. 1)About 'innocent sufferings' (i.e.: Bad people killing innocent people, natural disaster) God gives us freedom; whether to follow Him or not. For He do not want people to follow him just because of awe or fear but because we love him (we want to). If I were to sin (e.g. punch a stranger to vent my frustration,etc) God wouldn't stop me by physically binding me or threatened me because it means I follow Him just because of fear and I can't go to heaven as our heart is still bad. The only thing that prevent me from doing it is my conscience (given by God since He create us in His image). Some environmental disaster is caused by human (i.e global warming, air pollution). Thus akin to the example above. And in this world, God creates a law to function; the physics law. The natural disaster that has happened follow the law. God gives us intelligence to understand it. For example if I play a kite in rainy days and get struck by lightning and, wouldn't you blame me for it? We know that lightning tend to strike at high objects. My Ignorant is at blame (blame God if you are unhappy with the law of physics.) Furthermore, death in this world may not be what we perceived as(a bad thing). This is a fact that none of you can deny unless you've came back from death before. 2)Evidence on the existence of God: Note: I as a human in my early 20s, has no time to dig archaeological evidence, read historical books on religion, etc. These 2 things: Bible and me is enough evidence for me. How do u test whether a medicine is genuine or not? 1) Bring it to lab and get a chemical test done. or 2) Eat it and see if it works. For bible I use the 2nd method and I believe it. Bible suppose to make someone a better person.It says I must be forgiving, love even my enemy, be true to my heart, and be a truth seeker.If these thing be done I supposed to feel joy in me. And I did. The joy is not temporary as a drug would. So far the bible told me to find everlasting peace and joy if I 'consume' it and it did. Q: Why when I do good thing I 'll be in the state of peace and my conscience telling me this is the right thing to do? A: I am created in the image of God (pro peace and love)(from bible). If you still don't believe in God then you should believe that someone (genius and excel at human psychology) whose intent is to create a better world without any selfish reason 'lied' that his masterpiece is from God. For me I choose to believe. Additional points: Attemps to find physical evidence on the existence of God should be hard because I think it wasn't meant to be (by God). If God wants us to know he exist by obvious sensoral means He can easily make one apparition on the sky that thousands can see or by other means. But that means many people will follow him out of fear and awe but insincere at heart. God doesn't want it. The essence of the argument so far is to say that God is good but why certain things (that we perceived as bad is allowed to happen)=> thus God doesn’t exist.

Several points I want to discuss:
But before that I ‘ll tell u all more about Christianity in simple language.

Christianity is about the teaching of heart. After we die we either go to hell or heaven.Those place only God knows exactly what. No one knows completely what God is. But I know that God is the King of Heaven and He is the essence of what we call ‘good things’ (love, peace,etc). Hence, it is a fact that only good hearted people can go to heaven. Since God loves us and want us to have a good afterlife (live in heaven), He tells us how our heart should be and how to achieve it(Christianity contains it and so other religion), though His words may be misunderstood by human stupidity, motives, emotion,etc.

It’s fine if at this point u assume God as hypothetical being.

1)About ‘innocent sufferings’ (i.e.: Bad people killing innocent people, natural disaster)
God gives us freedom; whether to follow Him or not. For He do not want people to follow him just because of awe or fear but because we love him (we want to).
If I were to sin (e.g. punch a stranger to vent my frustration,etc) God wouldn’t stop me by physically binding me or threatened me because it means I follow Him just because of fear and I can’t go to heaven as our heart is still bad. The only thing that prevent me from doing it is my conscience (given by God since He create us in His image).
Some environmental disaster is caused by human (i.e global warming, air pollution). Thus akin to the example above.
And in this world, God creates a law to function; the physics law. The natural disaster that has happened follow the law. God gives us intelligence to understand it. For example if I play a kite in rainy days and get struck by lightning and, wouldn’t you blame me for it? We know that lightning tend to strike at high objects. My Ignorant is at blame (blame God if you are unhappy with the law of physics.)
Furthermore, death in this world may not be what we perceived as(a bad thing). This is a fact that none of you can deny unless you’ve came back from death before.

2)Evidence on the existence of God:
Note: I as a human in my early 20s, has no time to dig archaeological evidence, read historical books on religion, etc. These 2 things: Bible and me is enough evidence for me.
How do u test whether a medicine is genuine or not?
1) Bring it to lab and get a chemical test done. or
2) Eat it and see if it works.
For bible I use the 2nd method and I believe it. Bible suppose to make someone a better person.It says I must be forgiving, love even my enemy, be true to my heart, and be a truth seeker.If these thing be done I supposed to feel joy in me. And I did. The joy is not temporary as a drug would. So far the bible told me to find everlasting peace and joy if I ‘consume’ it and it did.
Q: Why when I do good thing I ‘ll be in the state of peace and my conscience telling me this is the right thing to do? A: I am created in the image of God (pro peace and love)(from bible).
If you still don’t believe in God then you should believe that someone (genius and excel at human psychology) whose intent is to create a better world without any selfish reason ‘lied’ that his masterpiece is from God. For me I choose to believe.

Additional points:
Attemps to find physical evidence on the existence of God should be hard because I think it wasn’t meant to be (by God). If God wants us to know he exist by obvious sensoral means He can easily make one apparition on the sky that thousands can see or by other means. But that means many people will follow him out of fear and awe but insincere at heart. God doesn’t want it.

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By: Kiwi Dave http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-552 Kiwi Dave Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:19:17 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-552 If God's mind is an unknowable essence then we can't know if it is good,bad or indifferent. Since apologists for God invariably (at least in my limited experience as a former Christian and long-time atheist)do claim to have some knowledge about God's intentions and/or actions, with particular emphasis on this entity's special love for humans generally and individually, and often claim to read God's character from his creation and specific interventions in the world, they can scarcely be surprised when sceptics point out that their interpretations require a selective view of human existance. I'm not a militant atheist, but being told by a well-meaning relative on the day of my wife's funeral (prematurely dead from breast cancer) that the lord had given me a fine day for it reminded me just how offensive and obtuse this religious view is. If God’s mind is an unknowable essence then we can’t know if it is good,bad or indifferent.

Since apologists for God invariably (at least in my limited experience as a former Christian and long-time atheist)do claim to have some knowledge about God’s intentions and/or actions, with particular emphasis on this entity’s special love for humans generally and individually, and often claim to read God’s character from his creation and specific interventions in the world, they can scarcely be surprised when sceptics point out that their interpretations require a selective view of human existance.

I’m not a militant atheist, but being told by a well-meaning relative on the day of my wife’s funeral (prematurely dead from breast cancer) that the lord had given me a fine day for it reminded me just how offensive and obtuse this religious view is.

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By: I dunno http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-544 I dunno Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:19:06 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-544 The assumptions naive and presumptive, but then again, they are the projection of simplistic Christian views about the mind of God onto what is really an intellectually unknowable essence. Any creature once born is surely going to die and suffer along the way. It is often unpredictable to us when or how either will occur, and as to having an identifiable and undisputable reason why (in terms of 'deserving it'), forget it, there's no way to know that. In shorter terms, to impute some moralistic reason for every occasion of suffering or death is a projection of moralistic small-mindedness onto what is truly a mystery. The assumptions naive and presumptive, but then again,
they are the projection of simplistic Christian views about the mind of God
onto what is really an intellectually unknowable essence.
Any creature once born is surely going to die and suffer along the way.
It is often unpredictable to us when or how either will occur, and as to
having an identifiable and undisputable reason why (in terms of ‘deserving it’),
forget it, there’s no way to know that.

In shorter terms, to impute some moralistic reason for every occasion of suffering or death
is a projection of moralistic small-mindedness onto what is truly a mystery.

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By: Kiwi Dave http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-536 Kiwi Dave Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:30:31 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-536 "We are not born with sin." Ah huh. So when the recent tsunami killed all those pregnant women, the unborn sin-free fetuses died for what reason? Interesting. “We are not born with sin.”

Ah huh. So when the recent tsunami killed all those pregnant women, the unborn sin-free fetuses died for what reason?

Interesting.

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By: DamnRight http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-515 DamnRight Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:14:06 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-515 … jealousy is a listed as a sin yet God admits to jealousy… … is a crack baby, born crying out because of the pain, experiencing only “necessary” suffering?... or a baby born with AIDS… … is the sin nature enough to condemn me to Hell?... or must I actually sin?... … I grew up experiencing the following… put tooth under pillow… by morning, tooth is gone & quarter sits in its place… therefore tooth fairy exists… as good as “the Bible says God exists, therefore God exists”… … jealousy is a listed as a sin yet God admits to jealousy…
… is a crack baby, born crying out because of the pain, experiencing only “necessary” suffering?… or a baby born with AIDS…
… is the sin nature enough to condemn me to Hell?… or must I actually sin?…
… I grew up experiencing the following… put tooth under pillow… by morning, tooth is gone & quarter sits in its place… therefore tooth fairy exists… as good as “the Bible says God exists, therefore God exists”…

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By: Frank http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/comment-page-1/#comment-506 Frank Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:20:37 +0000 http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2005/03/22/a-little-logic/#comment-506 John -- never said, nor implied, that a toddler being shot "isn't really so bad." John — never said, nor implied, that a toddler being shot “isn’t really so bad.”

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